vjsimone Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Hi Vinny - Yes. I looked at those. Should help me when.if I reconfigure the harness. Still considering locating it inside the engine compartment IF I can make it more streamline and hide much of it from view. Can't find anywhere I've looked for identification of the manifold sensors, but am confident in the information I was provided and will go with that. Have removed many of the engine compartment peripherals such as the thermactor pump, alternator, etc. Will remove the starter, header bolts, drain all fluids, etc. next break in the weather. And then I will remove the engine. Planning to clean and repaint the engine compartment and check the engine. I've looked into purchasing a refurbished engine from S&J. Also considering a new fuel rail. Found one on Summit racing that I think will work. Please let me know what you think about that system and if you think it will be a good fit. Hope you are doing well. As I recall, you're still at your residence up north. Steve Yes, up North until the spring... I think your 85 did not have a fuel rail schrader valve to check the fuel pressure, so I would think if you are replacing it, you would consider adding one as you reassemble. I always wondered if the 86 or later year fuel rails would work, for they have schrader valves installed. Since you will most likely be replacing the fuel plumbing, you could put the Valve downstream of the fuel regulator somewhere if need be. Couldn't tell much from the summit web site. Also, I believe there was a small barrel inline fuel filter just downstream of the Pressure Regulator up against the firewall in the line to the HP fuel pump. I don't know if you had 2 tanks or 1, but I think the 85 fuel filter was in a reservoir on the frame rail, and that unit is hard to find replacements and to change the filter. Pain in the butt fuel system all around. You may have the opportunity to put a high pressure pump/s in your tank/s and eliminate the HP pump.... Anyway, all that said, you have the chance to simplify the maintenance of the fuel filter and pressure testing during your rebuild... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Yes, up North until the spring... I think your 85 did not have a fuel rail schrader valve to check the fuel pressure, so I would think if you are replacing it, you would consider adding one as you reassemble. I always wondered if the 86 or later year fuel rails would work, for they have schrader valves installed. Since you will most likely be replacing the fuel plumbing, you could put the Valve downstream of the fuel regulator somewhere if need be. Couldn't tell much from the summit web site. Also, I believe there was a small barrel inline fuel filter just downstream of the Pressure Regulator up against the firewall in the line to the HP fuel pump. I don't know if you had 2 tanks or 1, but I think the 85 fuel filter was in a reservoir on the frame rail, and that unit is hard to find replacements and to change the filter. Pain in the butt fuel system all around. You may have the opportunity to put a high pressure pump/s in your tank/s and eliminate the HP pump.... Anyway, all that said, you have the chance to simplify the maintenance of the fuel filter and pressure testing during your rebuild... My research for Big Blue and Dad's truck shows that the reservoir/switching valve is essentially unavailable. It is looking like maintenance of these trucks is going to get very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Yes, up North until the spring... I think your 85 did not have a fuel rail schrader valve to check the fuel pressure, so I would think if you are replacing it, you would consider adding one as you reassemble. I always wondered if the 86 or later year fuel rails would work, for they have schrader valves installed. Since you will most likely be replacing the fuel plumbing, you could put the Valve downstream of the fuel regulator somewhere if need be. Couldn't tell much from the summit web site. Also, I believe there was a small barrel inline fuel filter just downstream of the Pressure Regulator up against the firewall in the line to the HP fuel pump. I don't know if you had 2 tanks or 1, but I think the 85 fuel filter was in a reservoir on the frame rail, and that unit is hard to find replacements and to change the filter. Pain in the butt fuel system all around. You may have the opportunity to put a high pressure pump/s in your tank/s and eliminate the HP pump.... Anyway, all that said, you have the chance to simplify the maintenance of the fuel filter and pressure testing during your rebuild... I believe that fuel rails up through 1989 should work as the three pumps were still used and I think the connections were in the same location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgauvry Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 Yes, up North until the spring... I think your 85 did not have a fuel rail schrader valve to check the fuel pressure, so I would think if you are replacing it, you would consider adding one as you reassemble. I always wondered if the 86 or later year fuel rails would work, for they have schrader valves installed. Since you will most likely be replacing the fuel plumbing, you could put the Valve downstream of the fuel regulator somewhere if need be. Couldn't tell much from the summit web site. Also, I believe there was a small barrel inline fuel filter just downstream of the Pressure Regulator up against the firewall in the line to the HP fuel pump. I don't know if you had 2 tanks or 1, but I think the 85 fuel filter was in a reservoir on the frame rail, and that unit is hard to find replacements and to change the filter. Pain in the butt fuel system all around. You may have the opportunity to put a high pressure pump/s in your tank/s and eliminate the HP pump.... Anyway, all that said, you have the chance to simplify the maintenance of the fuel filter and pressure testing during your rebuild... Great to hear from you, Vinny! Yes, I am already considering adding the schrader valve so I can periodically check fuel pressure. I've talked to summit racing and they (of course) stated the fuel rail work on my EFI, but I am not yet convinced. The fuel injector slots should be standard for a Ford 302. My three concerns are: 1. Will it fit in the space given by the Plenum, 2. will the fuel pressure adjustment work as it should if set correctly, 3, that summit racing fuel rail is expensive. Since I'm going through the trouble, I'd might as well make some upgrades. There is a fuel line canister along the frame rail on the downstream side of the high pressure pump. It has a paper filter contained inside. I've changed that before and it's relatively easy. No problem there, but I am considering replacing all of the fuel lines. I don't like creating problems for myself, but since I'll be removing my wooden truck bed, I'll have easy access to everything on the frame and might as well upgrade the fuel and brake-lines while I'm at it. I operate from a single tank. Putting a high pressure pump in the tank and removing the HP Pump along the frame rail sounds interesting. I'll have to do some research into it to see how those pumps work. Sounds like a decent possibility. Always good to hear from you, Vinny! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Great to hear from you, Vinny! Yes, I am already considering adding the schrader valve so I can periodically check fuel pressure. I've talked to summit racing and they (of course) stated the fuel rail work on my EFI, but I am not yet convinced. The fuel injector slots should be standard for a Ford 302. My three concerns are: 1. Will it fit in the space given by the Plenum, 2. will the fuel pressure adjustment work as it should if set correctly, 3, that summit racing fuel rail is expensive. Since I'm going through the trouble, I'd might as well make some upgrades. There is a fuel line canister along the frame rail on the downstream side of the high pressure pump. It has a paper filter contained inside. I've changed that before and it's relatively easy. No problem there, but I am considering replacing all of the fuel lines. I don't like creating problems for myself, but since I'll be removing my wooden truck bed, I'll have easy access to everything on the frame and might as well upgrade the fuel and brake-lines while I'm at it. I operate from a single tank. Putting a high pressure pump in the tank and removing the HP Pump along the frame rail sounds interesting. I'll have to do some research into it to see how those pumps work. Sounds like a decent possibility. Always good to hear from you, Vinny! Steve Steve, Gary has been going through the same research on Big Blue. What he has found is the later pump units (called FDM by Ford) will fit in the opening of the 1985.5-1989 tanks, but as I learned during my rework on Darth, the aligning tabs are in the wrong location. The issue he is working on right now is the gauge senders. Ford changed the gauge system from the heated bi-metal 5 volt system they had used since at least the 40s to a balanced magnetic gauge system, and at that point reversed the resistance direction on the senders. I believe he gave up on the idea of adapting the older senders to the newer FDMs and is working on an electronic solution that can be piggy backed between the sender or selector switch as needed and the cluster connection. If you are replacing the tank, a newer tank with pump can be ordered from any one who carries SPI (Spectra Premium Industries) products. Here are two pages from a 1993 service manual on the later FDM: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Thanks, Bill! You indicated that the #2 pic illustrated the temperature gauge sender. Just called a temperature sensor and nothing else? And in pic #4, you indicated the sensor there is the coolant sensor. That tube (or pipe) the sensor is attached to goes to one of the heater hoses, so that makes sense. Thanks!! Steve "sender" is a single wire resistor to ground for the gauge. "sensor" is two wire for the computer. The terms are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Steve, Gary has been going through the same research on Big Blue. What he has found is the later pump units (called FDM by Ford) will fit in the opening of the 1985.5-1989 tanks, but as I learned during my rework on Darth, the aligning tabs are in the wrong location. The issue he is working on right now is the gauge senders. Ford changed the gauge system from the heated bi-metal 5 volt system they had used since at least the 40s to a balanced magnetic gauge system, and at that point reversed the resistance direction on the senders. I believe he gave up on the idea of adapting the older senders to the newer FDMs and is working on an electronic solution that can be piggy backed between the sender or selector switch as needed and the cluster connection. If you are replacing the tank, a newer tank with pump can be ordered from any one who carries SPI (Spectra Premium Industries) products. Here are two pages from a 1993 service manual on the later FDM: Bill is right - I'm chest-deep in sorting through this, and you can follow along on my EFI For Big Blue thread. Here are some of my observations todate: 85.5/86: At first blush this appears to be the way to add EFI to a Bullnose truck as the sending units will work with the gauges - as Bill explained. However, after looking at the availability of parts I quickly realized this won't work as the needed reservoir/switching valve (F1TZ 9B263-B) is really not available. And, it is known to fail - frequently. 1990 - 93?: This one uses the fuel delivery modules of which Bill wrote, and they are available. No reservoir/switching valve. No frame-mounted high pressure pump. Etc. And far, FAR more simple wiring. However, if you already have the complex wiring with all the parts then you'd have to change. And, the problem of the sending unit resistance - see below. Gauge Interface: If we are to update our fuel systems we need a way to interface the new sending units with our old gauges. The Bullnose sending units give 10 ohms when Full and 73 ohms when Empty, but the later sending units give 145 ohms Full and 22.5 ohms Empty. My current plan is to write a program for an Arduino to read the resistance of the new sender and then provide the right current to the old gauge via pulse-width modulation. The hardware is quite easy, and inexpensive, and the coding will be simple. In fact, my nephew has written lots of code for Arduinos and will be happy to help me should there be a problem. And, when this is done it will be thoroughly written up here on the site with part numbers, code, etc so others can follow my lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgauvry Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 Bill is right - I'm chest-deep in sorting through this, and you can follow along on my EFI For Big Blue thread. Here are some of my observations todate: 85.5/86: At first blush this appears to be the way to add EFI to a Bullnose truck as the sending units will work with the gauges - as Bill explained. However, after looking at the availability of parts I quickly realized this won't work as the needed reservoir/switching valve (F1TZ 9B263-B) is really not available. And, it is known to fail - frequently. 1990 - 93?: This one uses the fuel delivery modules of which Bill wrote, and they are available. No reservoir/switching valve. No frame-mounted high pressure pump. Etc. And far, FAR more simple wiring. However, if you already have the complex wiring with all the parts then you'd have to change. And, the problem of the sending unit resistance - see below. Gauge Interface: If we are to update our fuel systems we need a way to interface the new sending units with our old gauges. The Bullnose sending units give 10 ohms when Full and 73 ohms when Empty, but the later sending units give 145 ohms Full and 22.5 ohms Empty. My current plan is to write a program for an Arduino to read the resistance of the new sender and then provide the right current to the old gauge via pulse-width modulation. The hardware is quite easy, and inexpensive, and the coding will be simple. In fact, my nephew has written lots of code for Arduinos and will be happy to help me should there be a problem. And, when this is done it will be thoroughly written up here on the site with part numbers, code, etc so others can follow my lead. Thanks to both Gary and 85lebaront2! This appears more complicated that I thought it would be, but may be worth the required brain power to make it work in the long run. If it can make fuel delivery more efficient and streamlined, I should give it a good look. I was considering somthing simliar to this unit (below), but wanted to ensure for backflow, ease of electrical conection and capadibility with my present fuel rail system and fuel regulator or with an aftermarket fuel rail system: http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/12-948/10002/-1?CAWELAID=230006180002535358&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=pla-208916254151&catargetid=230006180037476177&cadevice=c&gclid=CjwKCAiAweXTBRAhEiwAmb3Xu_9_Q0dPQPoQSixOcmWv01ZrRb5nBIAKxs1n1fd2_n4vucranP0iIBoCvcEQAvD_BwE I will follow Gary's work on BigBlue to see how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Thanks to both Gary and 85lebaront2! This appears more complicated that I thought it would be, but may be worth the required brain power to make it work in the long run. If it can make fuel delivery more efficient and streamlined, I should give it a good look. I was considering somthing simliar to this unit (below), but wanted to ensure for backflow, ease of electrical conection and capadibility with my present fuel rail system and fuel regulator or with an aftermarket fuel rail system: http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/12-948/10002/-1?CAWELAID=230006180002535358&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=pla-208916254151&catargetid=230006180037476177&cadevice=c&gclid=CjwKCAiAweXTBRAhEiwAmb3Xu_9_Q0dPQPoQSixOcmWv01ZrRb5nBIAKxs1n1fd2_n4vucranP0iIBoCvcEQAvD_BwE I will follow Gary's work on BigBlue to see how it goes. While that module probably could be made to fit, and might provide the right pressure, your gauge wouldn't work. When your tank was full the gauge would read below Empty, and when your tank was empty the gauge would read about 1/2 tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgauvry Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 While that module probably could be made to fit, and might provide the right pressure, your gauge wouldn't work. When your tank was full the gauge would read below Empty, and when your tank was empty the gauge would read about 1/2 tank. Thanks Gary - I'll follow along to see how you resolve this. Definitely interested to see what you come up with. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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