starter issue

[Jcris]

Hello,

I'll get right to it. When I start the motor the starter stays engaged and will not release until I pull the battery cable. I've researched this online and here is what I've done, not necessarily in order. I pulled and inspected the starter and had it load tested at a reliable local shop. It was replaced a couple years ago and has seen very little use. It looks new and tests good. Both the negative and positive battery cables have been replaced with 4 awg cables. All connections are solid and clean. The fender mount starter relay has been replaced. First with an after market version and currently has a motorcraft part. All grounds in the circuit have been checked. I replaced the one from the battery negative to the frame. Not that it was bad, but just to be sure. The battery is new but it seems rather small to me. I don't recall the size but it fits the tray properly. It just seems small for a V8. It is the correct size according to my local parts guy. This parts house is a mom and pop business who I've come to rely on over the years. Very knowledgeable and dependable. The ignition switch and the neutral safety switch have been replaced. I'm honestly not sure if I did replace the neutral switch or if it even has one. I've been working on an 84 square body Chevy that I may have done that on, and a 97 K1500. My memory is challenged for sure. All wiring in this circuit checks out. This issue does not occur every time but when the motor does start and run properly it idles well and revs without issue. For whatever reason the stater relay is welding closed and preventing this truck from being reliable. I don't understand what could be putting such a load on this circuit. I've seen the post from Gary about a PMGR starter and am at a point thinking of giving this a try. The gear reduction starter seems a logical next move but I really wish I knew more about why this is happening. Well there you have it. What do you guy's think?

Jcris

[Pebcak]

I had a similar issue with the relay and it fused. Because of the wife and I being in a parking lot I ended up burning out my starter because I didn't have tools to disconnect the battery.

One thing that happened from that instance that you haven't mentioned is the wire from my ignition on the steering column to the engine bay is now bad. When I turn the key it still works with turning on the Aux and everything else but no start. I wired up a toggle switch from under my dash to the starter to click to start the engine after turning the key.

May not be this at all but I figured it would be nice to put it out there.

I haven't had the gumption to trace the wire to fix it and I think it's cool to have a "Security Switch" to start my truck. It's hilarious when I've taken it to a shop to watch the guys try to figure out what is wrong when they try to start it. Always brings a smile to my face.

[PetesPonies]

There are but two things that will keep the starter engaged. By far the most prevalent is the starter solenoid. as you found,m these can weld their selves together and cause this issue. I hit them with something and that usually breaks the bond inside when I have been away from home. You replaced the solenoid and we'll assume you have a good one. The only other thing is the ignition switch or wiring from. It is what turns the solenoid on. So if the solenoid is being told to connect power to the starter, it's not the solenoid's fault its doing what it should be doing. If the ignition switch is still sending a signal to the solenoid when the key is in run position, you have the problem. Turn the key to start , then release it, before the engine starts. Is it still engaged? Is there power at the left small terminal at the solenoid? Check it.

[Gary Lewis]

There are but two things that will keep the starter engaged. By far the most prevalent is the starter solenoid. as you found,m these can weld their selves together and cause this issue. I hit them with something and that usually breaks the bond inside when I have been away from home. You replaced the solenoid and we'll assume you have a good one. The only other thing is the ignition switch or wiring from. It is what turns the solenoid on. So if the solenoid is being told to connect power to the starter, it's not the solenoid's fault its doing what it should be doing. If the ignition switch is still sending a signal to the solenoid when the key is in run position, you have the problem. Turn the key to start , then release it, before the engine starts. Is it still engaged? Is there power at the left small terminal at the solenoid? Check it.

Pete has an excellent point. The ignition switch on these trucks is actually a separate unit on the steering column well below the tumbler where the key goes in. It is actuated by a linkage, and if the lube for the tumbler or linkage or switch are dry the switch may not come out of Start. Or, the switch may not be properly adjusted.

I have a writeup here (Electrical/Ignition Switch) that shows where the components are, how they work, and how to adjust the switch.

[Jcris]

Pete has an excellent point. The ignition switch on these trucks is actually a separate unit on the steering column well below the tumbler where the key goes in. It is actuated by a linkage, and if the lube for the tumbler or linkage or switch are dry the switch may not come out of Start. Or, the switch may not be properly adjusted.

I have a writeup here (Electrical/Ignition Switch) that shows where the components are, how they work, and how to adjust the switch.

Thanks guy's,

I will be able to take a close look at the switch setup next week. It's been awhile since I've worked on it so I need to revisit and double check. I'm sure the lower switch (which I referred to as a neutral safety switch) was replaced. I do remember spending time getting that rod back in and working properly. I took a look at that link and it looks very clear and will allow me to re-check several things. I also need to double check the size of required battery. Anyway, thanks for the help and I'll report back when I know more.

Jcris

[Gary Lewis]

Thanks guy's,

I will be able to take a close look at the switch setup next week. It's been awhile since I've worked on it so I need to revisit and double check. I'm sure the lower switch (which I referred to as a neutral safety switch) was replaced. I do remember spending time getting that rod back in and working properly. I took a look at that link and it looks very clear and will allow me to re-check several things. I also need to double check the size of required battery. Anyway, thanks for the help and I'll report back when I know more.

Jcris

I added a page to show the original batteries used. Not all that helpful, but it is at Electrical/Batteries

[NotEnoughTrucks]

I added a page to show the original batteries used. Not all that helpful, but it is at Electrical/Batteries

The issue about the starter sticking on is most often a case of the starter relay contacts welding together. It is easy enough to check if it is the ignition switch by disconnecting the small wire to the relay. If the starter stops turning, it's the ignition switch, if it continues to turn, the solenoid contacts are stuck.

The reason the starter contacts weld together is excess current draw. The typical reason for excess draw is low voltage. Yes, I know Ohm's law does not work that way, but a series wound motor which must put out a certain amount of work will compensate by increasing the current draw. Becomes a lot of calculation including inductance which I'll not even attempt here. Most often, this is caused by a poorly charged, or defective battery.

So, it sounds like you have already tackled the obvious issues, so what next?

I'd like to know which style of starter relay you are using.

The old style was used with the series wound starter motors. It has the terminals out the side of the cylinder.

The new style solenoid is used with the PM starters. It has the terminals on the face of the cylinder.

I don't have specs, but the PM starters use a second solenoid on the motor itself and the fender mounted solenoid passes much less current. I suspect using the new style solenoid with a series wound motor may exceed the current ratings of the solenoid which would promote sticking.

Just a theory of mine, may be worth looking into.

 

[Gary Lewis]

The issue about the starter sticking on is most often a case of the starter relay contacts welding together. It is easy enough to check if it is the ignition switch by disconnecting the small wire to the relay. If the starter stops turning, it's the ignition switch, if it continues to turn, the solenoid contacts are stuck.

The reason the starter contacts weld together is excess current draw. The typical reason for excess draw is low voltage. Yes, I know Ohm's law does not work that way, but a series wound motor which must put out a certain amount of work will compensate by increasing the current draw. Becomes a lot of calculation including inductance which I'll not even attempt here. Most often, this is caused by a poorly charged, or defective battery.

So, it sounds like you have already tackled the obvious issues, so what next?

I'd like to know which style of starter relay you are using.

The old style was used with the series wound starter motors. It has the terminals out the side of the cylinder.

The new style solenoid is used with the PM starters. It has the terminals on the face of the cylinder.

I don't have specs, but the PM starters use a second solenoid on the motor itself and the fender mounted solenoid passes much less current. I suspect using the new style solenoid with a series wound motor may exceed the current ratings of the solenoid which would promote sticking.

Just a theory of mine, may be worth looking into.

Ray - That's a good point about induction and series-wound motors. Which is what others have been trying to tell me for some time.

So, a really tight engine, or too much initial advance?

[ArdWrknTrk]

The issue about the starter sticking on is most often a case of the starter relay contacts welding together. It is easy enough to check if it is the ignition switch by disconnecting the small wire to the relay. If the starter stops turning, it's the ignition switch, if it continues to turn, the solenoid contacts are stuck.

The reason the starter contacts weld together is excess current draw. The typical reason for excess draw is low voltage. Yes, I know Ohm's law does not work that way, but a series wound motor which must put out a certain amount of work will compensate by increasing the current draw. Becomes a lot of calculation including inductance which I'll not even attempt here. Most often, this is caused by a poorly charged, or defective battery.

So, it sounds like you have already tackled the obvious issues, so what next?

I'd like to know which style of starter relay you are using.

The old style was used with the series wound starter motors. It has the terminals out the side of the cylinder.

The new style solenoid is used with the PM starters. It has the terminals on the face of the cylinder.

I don't have specs, but the PM starters use a second solenoid on the motor itself and the fender mounted solenoid passes much less current. I suspect using the new style solenoid with a series wound motor may exceed the current ratings of the solenoid which would promote sticking.

Just a theory of mine, may be worth looking into.

My truck came with a fender relay that has face mounted studs, and was the old style rocker starter.

I had major issues with contacts welding after a flywheel/clutch/ gearbox change even though all cables, connections, battery were new and good.

I bought the cheapest PMGR starter I could find and ran the extra wire.

I have had no problems since.

If pulling the red/blue trigger wire from the 'S' terminal does not stop the starter from turning, you have welded contacts from excessive current draw.

Whack it with a screwdriver handle or something and regroup.

[85lebaront2]

The issue about the starter sticking on is most often a case of the starter relay contacts welding together. It is easy enough to check if it is the ignition switch by disconnecting the small wire to the relay. If the starter stops turning, it's the ignition switch, if it continues to turn, the solenoid contacts are stuck.

The reason the starter contacts weld together is excess current draw. The typical reason for excess draw is low voltage. Yes, I know Ohm's law does not work that way, but a series wound motor which must put out a certain amount of work will compensate by increasing the current draw. Becomes a lot of calculation including inductance which I'll not even attempt here. Most often, this is caused by a poorly charged, or defective battery.

So, it sounds like you have already tackled the obvious issues, so what next?

I'd like to know which style of starter relay you are using.

The old style was used with the series wound starter motors. It has the terminals out the side of the cylinder.

The new style solenoid is used with the PM starters. It has the terminals on the face of the cylinder.

I don't have specs, but the PM starters use a second solenoid on the motor itself and the fender mounted solenoid passes much less current. I suspect using the new style solenoid with a series wound motor may exceed the current ratings of the solenoid which would promote sticking.

Just a theory of mine, may be worth looking into.

Actually, the later trucks with the old style starter used the flat relay. Problem is more caused by crap Chinese relays, their copper is junk, probably reclaimed scrap and they will weld together if you look at them too hard. I used to grab all of them I could find in junkyards, particularly if it was an older Motorcraft one. At a couple of bucks maybe less, if they didn't work it wasn't too bad, if they did, great!