Spit Balling LOL

[FuzzFace2]

I thought I had the information saved but cant find it

The truck this will go on is a 81 F100 2WD flare side, 300 six, w/T18 and 2.75 9" rear gear.

The T18 needs some help, wore out and does not shift well. I could rebuild it but I would not have over drive but I like the granny low for heavy loads and it will be a back up for pulling my car trailer.

So the spit ball (question) is what years does the ZF5 for a small block that uses a speedo cable come in?

Again would need to be for a small block 2wd truck.

Would the front suspension from that truck also fit mine? I think they have the 5x5.5 wheel pattern like mine does. Mine still darts and does not return to center after a turn, think the new kingpins are still to tight. My thinking is if it will fit my truck to go with JDM drop beams with new ball joints so I can get the truck a little lower.

So with that said I would be looking for a whole truck cheap so I have all the ZF5 & suspension parts other than the pedals needed for my truck and think would be cheaper than buying piece meal.

On the pedals do you think just the clutch pedal / cross bar could be swapped from parts truck to my pedal bracket assy.? I think I seen between the 80-86 clutch set ups they are different but don't remember if anyone did just the pedal / cross bar swap.

Sorry a lot of spit

Thanks for any help you can give.

Dave ----

[Gary Lewis]

According to our Documentation/Driveline/Transmissions/Manual Transmissions/Manual Transmission Applications page the ZF5 started being used in ‘89. And from what I’ve seen the frames were the same so the suspension should swap.

As for the pedal, I’ve not tried but it might work in the Bullnose bracket. Be worth a try, and if not you’d still have everything else and we can find the right pedal.

[Rembrant]

So the spit ball (question) is what years does the ZF5 for a small block that uses a speedo cable come in?

Again would need to be for a small block 2wd truck.

Dave, I'm pretty sure that you'll need a transmission between 1988-1991. With the new body styling in 1992 came an electronic speedometer.

Would the front suspension from that truck also fit mine? I think they have the 5x5.5 wheel pattern like mine does.

It might fit, but it would be 8-lug, 3/4 ton or 1 ton...

On the pedals do you think just the clutch pedal / cross bar could be swapped from parts truck to my pedal bracket assy.? I think I seen between the 80-86 clutch set ups they are different but don't remember if anyone did just the pedal / cross bar swap.

You'll want the whole pedal assembly from a Bullnose with hydraulic clutch. The whole thing just swaps right in place...no problem. It would be easier than trying to swap just the clutch bar in there I would think.

 

[Gary Lewis]

So the spit ball (question) is what years does the ZF5 for a small block that uses a speedo cable come in?

Again would need to be for a small block 2wd truck.

Dave, I'm pretty sure that you'll need a transmission between 1988-1991. With the new body styling in 1992 came an electronic speedometer.

Would the front suspension from that truck also fit mine? I think they have the 5x5.5 wheel pattern like mine does.

It might fit, but it would be 8-lug, 3/4 ton or 1 ton...

On the pedals do you think just the clutch pedal / cross bar could be swapped from parts truck to my pedal bracket assy.? I think I seen between the 80-86 clutch set ups they are different but don't remember if anyone did just the pedal / cross bar swap.

You'll want the whole pedal assembly from a Bullnose with hydraulic clutch. The whole thing just swaps right in place...no problem. It would be easier than trying to swap just the clutch bar in there I would think.

Cory - I think the ZF did come in lighter duty trucks than the F250's from 1989 on, as shown below:

[Rembrant]

Cory - I think the ZF did come in lighter duty trucks than the F250's from 1989 on, as shown below:

That's interesting Gary! I'm no ZF5 expert, so I should probably keep my pie hole shut...lol, but I didn't think they were available in anything lighter than an F250. As you know, I have the lighter duty Mazda M5OD in my 1984. It came out of a 1991 Light Duty F250 with a 302. I don't know where the cut off was, but according to your parts list above, the ZF5 only went behind the 4.9 and 5.8 (only talking SBF patterns here)....which makes perfect sense since the F250 my Mazda tranny came out of had a 302. Your list also points out why that transmission just happened to have the correct speedo cable drive gear for my 3.08 rear diff.

In any case, I learned something new then. I didn't realize that an F150 could be had with a ZF5 trans behind either a 4.9 or 5.8. I don't want to say that they're rare, but I have honestly never seen a 4x2 F150 with a 5.8 and a 5spd trans, and all of the 4x2 300/6 5spd F150's I have seen all had the lighter duty Mazda 5spd like mine.

I do like learning new stuff!

In any case, good luck Dave! Just keep the searches to 1988-1991 and you'll be in the correct year range for cable speedo.

 

[Gary Lewis]

Cory - I think the ZF did come in lighter duty trucks than the F250's from 1989 on, as shown below:

That's interesting Gary! I'm no ZF5 expert, so I should probably keep my pie hole shut...lol, but I didn't think they were available in anything lighter than an F250. As you know, I have the lighter duty Mazda M5OD in my 1984. It came out of a 1991 Light Duty F250 with a 302. I don't know where the cut off was, but according to your parts list above, the ZF5 only went behind the 4.9 and 5.8 (only talking SBF patterns here)....which makes perfect sense since the F250 my Mazda tranny came out of had a 302. Your list also points out why that transmission just happened to have the correct speedo cable drive gear for my 3.08 rear diff.

In any case, I learned something new then. I didn't realize that an F150 could be had with a ZF5 trans behind either a 4.9 or 5.8. I don't want to say that they're rare, but I have honestly never seen a 4x2 F150 with a 5.8 and a 5spd trans, and all of the 4x2 300/6 5spd F150's I have seen all had the lighter duty Mazda 5spd like mine.

I do like learning new stuff!

In any case, good luck Dave! Just keep the searches to 1988-1991 and you'll be in the correct year range for cable speedo.

By '88 buyers were wanting overdriven transmissions and in that year the M5OD was introduced, as you can see on the Application tab of the Documentation/Driveline/Driveshafts page. (Go to Pg 64 of that document for the first mention of Mazda. And note that M5OD to Ford means a Manual transmission of 5 speeds with the top being OD. I say that because the ZF5 is also called an M5OD.) But the Mazda transmission apparently didn't have the torque rating to handle the "big" engines, so they used the ZF5 on engines from the 351W and larger.

But, the plot thickens as the 4.9L was available with both the Mazda and the ZF tranny. I'm suspecting that what we are dealing with there is explained by the chart below from the transmission application tab as well as the engine availability in the various vehicles. For instance, I don't think the 302 was available in the F250HD or heavier.

But, that doesn't work with the driveshaft chart showing the ZF was available in F150's and Broncos. So I'm confused.

 

[Rembrant]

By '88 buyers were wanting overdriven transmissions and in that year the M5OD was introduced, as you can see on the Application tab of the Documentation Driveline page. (Go to Pg 64 of that document for the first mention of Mazda. And note that M5OD to Ford means a Manual transmission of 5 speeds with the top being OD. I say that because the ZF5 is also called an M5OD.) But the Mazda transmission apparently didn't have the torque rating to handle the "big" engines, so they used the ZF5 on engines from the 351W and larger.

But, the plot thickens as the 4.9L was available with both the Mazda and the ZF tranny. I'm suspecting that what we are dealing with there is explained by the chart below from the transmission application tab as well as the engine availability in the various vehicles. For instance, I don't think the 302 was available in the F250HD or heavier.

But, that doesn't work with the driveshaft chart showing the ZF was available in F150's and Broncos. So I'm confused.

Gary,

Right on the M5OD. Myself and most people refer to the lighter Mazda 5spd trans as the "M5OD", but the more correct term would be M5-R2. The M5OD is kind of a blanket term covering all of them.

I see on the lists that Ford was using "T.K." to indicate the Mazda trans? (T.K. is Toyo Kogyo...the name of the "early Mazda transmissions).

Interesting side note on these transmissions. The guy that I bought my M5-R2 5spd from originally had it listed for sale as a ZF5 trans. It was removed from an F250 after all, and he assumed like many of us did that the F250's all had the ZF5 trans. Somebody reached out to him to tell him that it wasn't a ZF5 trans, so he relisted it as the M5-R2....and I bought it after that. We now know that the F250 could be had with a 302 and the M5-R2 trans and 2.75-3.08 rear diff gears (Truck was under 8500 GVWR). If you had an F250 with a heavier weight rating, or lower gears, it wouldn't have the M5-R2 (or the 302).

But, back to the discussion at hand...and Dave's original question about the ZF5 availability...

I think that looking for a 2wd 5-lug truck with a ZF5 with the SBF bolt pattern would be the proverbial needle in the hay stack! If this combination ever even existed...I'd say it's a rare one at best, but somebody can correct me if I'm wrong.

If I was Dave, my parts shopping list would be...

1983-1986 Bullnose Brake and hydraulic clutch pedal set

1983-1986 Hydraulic Master Cylinder

1988-1991 Hydraulic line

1988-1991 ZF5 Trans with SBF bolt pattern

1988-1996 ZF5 Transmission crossmember

Custom fit driveshaft if required

A longer speedo cable may be required

Will need plug for ZF5 reverse switch (I bought mine from LMC, only a couple bucks iirc)

 

[Gary Lewis]

By '88 buyers were wanting overdriven transmissions and in that year the M5OD was introduced, as you can see on the Application tab of the Documentation Driveline page. (Go to Pg 64 of that document for the first mention of Mazda. And note that M5OD to Ford means a Manual transmission of 5 speeds with the top being OD. I say that because the ZF5 is also called an M5OD.) But the Mazda transmission apparently didn't have the torque rating to handle the "big" engines, so they used the ZF5 on engines from the 351W and larger.

But, the plot thickens as the 4.9L was available with both the Mazda and the ZF tranny. I'm suspecting that what we are dealing with there is explained by the chart below from the transmission application tab as well as the engine availability in the various vehicles. For instance, I don't think the 302 was available in the F250HD or heavier.

But, that doesn't work with the driveshaft chart showing the ZF was available in F150's and Broncos. So I'm confused.

Gary,

Right on the M5OD. Myself and most people refer to the lighter Mazda 5spd trans as the "M5OD", but the more correct term would be M5-R2. The M5OD is kind of a blanket term covering all of them.

I see on the lists that Ford was using "T.K." to indicate the Mazda trans? (T.K. is Toyo Kogyo...the name of the "early Mazda transmissions).

Interesting side note on these transmissions. The guy that I bought my M5-R2 5spd from originally had it listed for sale as a ZF5 trans. It was removed from an F250 after all, and he assumed like many of us did that the F250's all had the ZF5 trans. Somebody reached out to him to tell him that it wasn't a ZF5 trans, so he relisted it as the M5-R2....and I bought it after that. We now know that the F250 could be had with a 302 and the M5-R2 trans and 2.75-3.08 rear diff gears (Truck was under 8500 GVWR). If you had an F250 with a heavier weight rating, or lower gears, it wouldn't have the M5-R2 (or the 302).

But, back to the discussion at hand...and Dave's original question about the ZF5 availability...

I think that looking for a 2wd 5-lug truck with a ZF5 with the SBF bolt pattern would be the proverbial needle in the hay stack! If this combination ever even existed...I'd say it's a rare one at best, but somebody can correct me if I'm wrong.

If I was Dave, my parts shopping list would be...

1983-1986 Bullnose Brake and hydraulic clutch pedal set

1983-1986 Hydraulic Master Cylinder

1988-1991 Hydraulic line

1988-1991 ZF5 Trans with SBF bolt pattern

1988-1996 ZF5 Transmission crossmember

Custom fit driveshaft if required

A longer speedo cable may be required

Will need plug for ZF5 reverse switch (I bought mine from LMC, only a couple bucks iirc)

I agree with what you’ve said, Cory.

But let me ask Dave why the ZF? Why not the Mazda tranny? Looks like it will be lot easier to find. And you’ll be able to use the existing clutch, which you can’t do with the ZF as the input shaft is much bigger on it. Plus a ZF shifts like what it is - a heavy duty truck transmission. And they are expensive to rebuild.

But the Mazda tranny has a first gear ratio of 3.9 vs the T18’s 6.32. So it won’t be nearly as easy to get a load started.

Bottom line - I’d hold out for a ZF but not for a parts truck with it and the 5-lug front. Split it into two issues and two different parts trucks.

[grumpin]

I agree with what you’ve said, Cory.

But let me ask Dave why the ZF? Why not the Mazda tranny? Looks like it will be lot easier to find. And you’ll be able to use the existing clutch, which you can’t do with the ZF as the input shaft is much bigger on it. Plus a ZF shifts like what it is - a heavy duty truck transmission. And they are expensive to rebuild.

But the Mazda tranny has a first gear ratio of 3.9 vs the T18’s 6.32. So it won’t be nearly as easy to get a load started.

Bottom line - I’d hold out for a ZF but not for a parts truck with it and the 5-lug front. Split it into two issues and two different parts trucks.

I agree with Gary on the shifting. Then thought, you drive a big rig, you’ll probably like it!

[Rembrant]

But the Mazda tranny has a first gear ratio of 3.9 vs the T18’s 6.32. So it won’t be nearly as easy to get a load started.

I think that is the very reason he wants the ZF5 gear box.

The Mazda tranny gets a bit of a bad rap in my opinion, but there's no denying that it is a much lighter transmission. In my truck with the 3.08 rear diff, the gearing is really tall, and you can feel it pulling away in first gear. Ford did sell them with this gearing combo, so I didn't do anything unusual here...but it's definitely a light duty set-up, certainly more geared towards fuel efficiency than towing.

I think with 3.55 or 3.73 diff gears, the Mazda trans would be much better to work with in a "work" truck. I've seen a lot of guys around here put snow plows on these F150's, and I assume that would be as torturous on the truck as trailer towing, if not worse...lol.