Gary Lewis Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 I just sent this to Shapeways: First, let me say that this isn't a complaint. This was my very first 3D print and I'm stoked. But, I think the results can be better with your help. When I initially uploaded the file it said that there were problems with the letters being too "fine" and I hit the button to fix that and the system said they were then OK. In fact, in the drawing I was shown they looked good. However, in actuality they are coarse and run together. So, I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. In addition, the overall texture of the part is rough and I'd like it to be smoother. I've attached several pictures, with the first being Head-on Capture, which is from my TurboCAD display. It shows what I want the letters to look like, and taking some measurements they stand .031" off the face of the part, are .007" at the thinnest, and there's .007" between them at the closest point. The second pic (Shapeways 1 Sanded Fill Flash) is what the letters look like having been "fixed" by your process and printed in Strong & Flexible. (Note that I sanded on them to smooth the tops some.) And, it appears to me that the "A" and "M" of LAMPS are smaller than the other letters. The 3rd pic (3rd Round Result) shows the actual part I'm trying to replicate on the left, and a version printed by a friend of mine via one of your competitors on the right. Note how much more crisp the letters are on his version. However, I do know that whomever printed it had to do something to fix the letters, and in the process even moved the FOG LAMPS lettering up. So, what I need help with is what needs to be done to my file in order to get better quality letters as well as a smoother overall finish. Is another material better? This is a decorative part so isn't under stress, and the only reason for the studs on the back is to gingerly fasten it to another panel. But, it will be in trucks that will be parked outside, so will see UV light. I'm happy to make another pass or two, but need your guidance on what to change. Thanks, Gary Well, that was quick. May not answer all the questions, but recommends some directions and provides links for study. Hello Gary, Thank you for reaching out out to us. I'm sorry you are not happy with the results of your print and will address your questions to the best of my abilities. Our thickness wall fixer is great for certain sections but not ideal for details as it creates these sort of digital blobs to make up for the thickness. The best approach would be to adjust the thickness on the original model file using a 3D design program. We provide design guidelines for details and other aspects of your design here: https://www.shapeways.com/materials/strong-and-flexible-plastic I would pay extra attention to the "embossing" section on that page. This being a powder-based material, we would not be able to get the same result as the photo on the left, regardless of how crisp the design itself is. You will see more detailed prints with our Frosted Detail Plastic and Black Hi-Def Acrylate options. You can learn more about these and the rest of our materials here: https://www.shapeways.com/materials If you have any further questions, please let me know! So, I come away with these thoughts, but want the rest of y'all to chime in with your takeways: Material: Looks like I need to read up on the guidelines for the materials and then adjust the lettering to meet them. We need to move away from a powder-based material. However, just a bit of reading on their site says "Acrylic plastic is heatproof to 48ºC / 118.4ºF degrees. Higher temperatures may significantly change material properties." On the other hand it says this about High Definition Acrylate: "The material is heat resistant up to 120°C." That's 248ºF, so I think this one would work. In addition, although HP Nylon is a powder-based material their website says "The surface is smooth, finished and semi-glossy..." So I've gone back to him asking about that material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reamer Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Well, that was quick. May not answer all the questions, but recommends some directions and provides links for study. Hello Gary, Thank you for reaching out out to us. I'm sorry you are not happy with the results of your print and will address your questions to the best of my abilities. Our thickness wall fixer is great for certain sections but not ideal for details as it creates these sort of digital blobs to make up for the thickness. The best approach would be to adjust the thickness on the original model file using a 3D design program. We provide design guidelines for details and other aspects of your design here: https://www.shapeways.com/materials/strong-and-flexible-plastic I would pay extra attention to the "embossing" section on that page. This being a powder-based material, we would not be able to get the same result as the photo on the left, regardless of how crisp the design itself is. You will see more detailed prints with our Frosted Detail Plastic and Black Hi-Def Acrylate options. You can learn more about these and the rest of our materials here: https://www.shapeways.com/materials If you have any further questions, please let me know! So, I come away with these thoughts, but want the rest of y'all to chime in with your takeways: Material: Looks like I need to read up on the guidelines for the materials and then adjust the lettering to meet them. We need to move away from a powder-based material. However, just a bit of reading on their site says "Acrylic plastic is heatproof to 48ºC / 118.4ºF degrees. Higher temperatures may significantly change material properties." On the other hand it says this about High Definition Acrylate: "The material is heat resistant up to 120°C." That's 248ºF, so I think this one would work. In addition, although HP Nylon is a powder-based material their website says "The surface is smooth, finished and semi-glossy..." So I've gone back to him asking about that material. Both printed samples are the correct size/thickness. The company I use did my sample on the "new" HP 3-printer, I'm on the road this week and will get you details when home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Both printed samples are the correct size/thickness. The company I use did my sample on the "new" HP 3-printer, I'm on the road this week and will get you details when home. I've done the reading on Shapeways' site and it looks like High Definition Acrylate is the way to go. Here are some snippets from that page: "High Definition Acrylate is made of a photo-reactive resin. It is printed using Direct Light Projection (DLP) technology which provides excellent resolution and accuracy. It is capable of fine details and is therefore ideal for miniatures and models trains. Additionally, the DLP process produces a smooth surface, making it well suited for painting. The material is heat resistant up to 120°C and is printed at 50 micron layer thickness." They said I need to "pay extra attention to the "embossing" section on that page". That's because "Embossed details stick out from a surface." And their minimum height and width for an embossed detail is .1mm, which is .004". According to the drawing the thinnest section of any of the letters is .007", and the minimum distance between letters is also .007". In comparison, the Strong & Flexible material I used says it has a minimum height and width for embossed details of .008". So, the HDA should work fine, but I can see why the S&A material didn't. So, I'm planning another round using HDA. Does anyone have any suggested changes for this round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford F834 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I've done the reading on Shapeways' site and it looks like High Definition Acrylate is the way to go. Here are some snippets from that page: "High Definition Acrylate is made of a photo-reactive resin. It is printed using Direct Light Projection (DLP) technology which provides excellent resolution and accuracy. It is capable of fine details and is therefore ideal for miniatures and models trains. Additionally, the DLP process produces a smooth surface, making it well suited for painting. The material is heat resistant up to 120°C and is printed at 50 micron layer thickness." They said I need to "pay extra attention to the "embossing" section on that page". That's because "Embossed details stick out from a surface." And their minimum height and width for an embossed detail is .1mm, which is .004". According to the drawing the thinnest section of any of the letters is .007", and the minimum distance between letters is also .007". In comparison, the Strong & Flexible material I used says it has a minimum height and width for embossed details of .008". So, the HDA should work fine, but I can see why the S&A material didn't. So, I'm planning another round using HDA. Does anyone have any suggested changes for this round? Wow! Excellent footwork Gary! I never thought about the heat resistance but obviously that is a major concern, especially for me 😉. I think the next print should be cleaner and easier to achieve the desired finish. I am excited to see the results. As far as painting, when I refurbished the tach face (that I stupidly damaged with alcohol), I used the SEM Trim Black "Euro Jet Satin" 41023. It is not 100% identical to the stock gauge face paint but pretty darn close. It has just ever so slightly more sheen to it. I think it would be an excellent choice for the black parts of woodgrain or XLS bezels and for the fog light bezel. My particular can went on very thick. Be aware of this as I thought I had ruined my gauge face by filling in the grid texture (!) but once it dried it was okay. It could have just been my can, but it could potentially fill in parts of the lettering like the O or the triangle of the A etc., on the positive side it might also help smooth out the texture. Just begin with a very light application is all I am saying. For the chrome edge I would use the cosmetic q tip over dipping. It is extremely easy to control and gives a great result. It will probably need a gloss undercoat to get it truly chrome like, but I don't think it will be hard to achieve. The white lettering is going to be the most difficult and no easy way to get around it. I had fits trying to repaint the numbers on my tach face. First of all it is hard to get full opacity of white covering black. It needs a few coats no matter what. The edge of the letter/number likes to scrape paint off your implement and let it run down onto the face. Corners are particularly difficult (think about the acute angle at the base of a "2". I tried the HyPo fluorescent white and no go. It was way to pasty and translucent. I tried an extremely fine white paint pen but I could not control the plunger tip/flow pattern on the skinny number faces. I ended up with a larger felt tip paint pen and a dob dob dob technique, but it was fitful. Next time I try this I think I am going to order white Testor's model paint and use the dense fine tip cosmetic q tips to apply it. If you have any spare/junk gauge parts I would practice on those before tackling the fog light bezel. I know all of this is getting ahead of the current state of the project, but i thought I'd throw it out there anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I've done the reading on Shapeways' site and it looks like High Definition Acrylate is the way to go. Here are some snippets from that page: "High Definition Acrylate is made of a photo-reactive resin. It is printed using Direct Light Projection (DLP) technology which provides excellent resolution and accuracy. It is capable of fine details and is therefore ideal for miniatures and models trains. Additionally, the DLP process produces a smooth surface, making it well suited for painting. The material is heat resistant up to 120°C and is printed at 50 micron layer thickness." They said I need to "pay extra attention to the "embossing" section on that page". That's because "Embossed details stick out from a surface." And their minimum height and width for an embossed detail is .1mm, which is .004". According to the drawing the thinnest section of any of the letters is .007", and the minimum distance between letters is also .007". In comparison, the Strong & Flexible material I used says it has a minimum height and width for embossed details of .008". So, the HDA should work fine, but I can see why the S&A material didn't. So, I'm planning another round using HDA. Does anyone have any suggested changes for this round? OK, so Ron's results are better with the jet printer than your experience with SLS. Acrylic will produce a harder and glossier part with better adherence to the file. But again, it *will not* produce a part with the detail and resolution of a die injected molded part. (or even a gravity molded part in a mold pulled from the original) Anything built layer by layer is not going to be the same as something monolithic. What is one difference between a block wall and a poured concrete wall? You can add details to the inside of a form and have good resolution when the forms are stripped. Try that when laying up block. Not to get too far off track in this fog light bezel thread I'm going to make a post in the workshop/tools section. Do we even know what the original is made of? I'm assuming ABS. Really looking forward to seeing the results in acrylic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 OK, so Ron's results are better with the jet printer than your experience with SLS. Acrylic will produce a harder and glossier part with better adherence to the file. But again, it *will not* produce a part with the detail and resolution of a die injected molded part. (or even a gravity molded part in a mold pulled from the original) Anything built layer by layer is not going to be the same as something monolithic. What is one difference between a block wall and a poured concrete wall? You can add details to the inside of a form and have good resolution when the forms are stripped. Try that when laying up block. Not to get too far off track in this fog light bezel thread I'm going to make a post in the workshop/tools section. Do we even know what the original is made of? I'm assuming ABS. Really looking forward to seeing the results in acrylic Jonathan - That is excellent info on painting. Thanks! Jim - I see your point about a block wall and a poured wall. But fortunately, about all that can be seen on the fog light bezel when it is installed is the top of the letters and the bead, and the face of the bezel itself. In other words, not the sides where the "stepping" is going to be obvious. And even then it is tucked up under the steering wheel such that the inspector's rear end is easily assaulted. Anyway, I'm hoping to get the 2nd pass started today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Jonathan - That is excellent info on painting. Thanks! Jim - I see your point about a block wall and a poured wall. But fortunately, about all that can be seen on the fog light bezel when it is installed is the top of the letters and the bead, and the face of the bezel itself. In other words, not the sides where the "stepping" is going to be obvious. And even then it is tucked up under the steering wheel such that the inspector's rear end is easily assaulted. Anyway, I'm hoping to get the 2nd pass started today. I think the point I was trying to make is that fusing nylon dust is still joining discreet 'blocks' together.(no matter how small) If you join an edge or corner the whole block is still fused to the main body, even though 1/2 or more might not be within the the desired boundry. So yeah, you have the rows of block.... Then you have to fact that the blocks are just being thrown at random towards the wall you want to build. There is no constraining form to keep them from jutting beyond where you want your wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I think the point I was trying to make is that fusing nylon dust is still joining discreet 'blocks' together.(no matter how small) If you join an edge or corner the whole block is still fused to the main body, even though 1/2 or more might not be within the the desired boundry. So yeah, you have the rows of block.... Then you have to fact that the blocks are just being thrown at random towards the wall you want to build. There is no constraining form to keep them from jutting beyond where you want your wall. Yes, I get your point about joining blocks. Thousands of them! So there will be registration issues. On a slightly different subject, I just had a thought about another use for the bulk of the fog light bezel. In the pic below you can see the bezel off of Huck for the OD lockout switch. Why not make a "Bullnose style" bezel that says OVERDRIVE, takes the later switch, and slips into the same holes in the instrument bezel as the fog light bezel does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford F834 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Yes, I get your point about joining blocks. Thousands of them! So there will be registration issues. On a slightly different subject, I just had a thought about another use for the bulk of the fog light bezel. In the pic below you can see the bezel off of Huck for the OD lockout switch. Why not make a "Bullnose style" bezel that says OVERDRIVE, takes the later switch, and slips into the same holes in the instrument bezel as the fog light bezel does? That's a neat idea Gary! Justin on the diesel forum repurposed his tank selector to engage/disengage his DNE2 overdrive, and I was thinking of something similar for the GVOD on/off switch that adds clutter to the dash. An "overdrive" bezel would be great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 That's a neat idea Gary! Justin on the diesel forum repurposed his tank selector to engage/disengage his DNE2 overdrive, and I was thinking of something similar for the GVOD on/off switch that adds clutter to the dash. An "overdrive" bezel would be great! Took a bit of time to look at the OD lockout switch and the bezel today. On the '90 the switch fastens to the back of the external bezel, which then attaches to the instrument bezel - much like the fog lamp bezel on the Bullnose trucks. And the switch itself gets pushed through a hole in the instrument bezel. So, I'll have to do something like that if I want to create a bezel for the switch on Dad's truck. However, I will also look at the trucks with a switch on the end of the shift lever. Anyway, I ordered the fog lamp bezel printed in High Definition Acrylate, as shown below. Shipping is guestimated for January 30th. Hi Gary, Thanks for your order! Before we start manufacturing your product(s), our 3D printing experts will manually review the designs. Given the complex nature of 3D printing, we sometimes catch designs that are too fragile to create. If this happens with any item in your order, we will notify you and you will not have to pay for it. You'll be able to view the status of your payment on your Order Status Page. Once we get the green light, we'll create your product(s) using the highest quality 3D printers. When it ships, you'll receive an email with tracking information. Order #2078071 contains: 1x Bezel as of 121817 - Studs Not Added in Black Hi-Def Acrylate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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