Don's (Pebcak) 351 upgrade Project

[Rembrant]

If you look at my Belated Happy Father's Day post you'll see that my son wants to rebuild the engine with me. We've got a start and some ideas. But as usual, I was to research things before we go down a rabbit hole.

So here I go with a couple questions.

1. My son found

video of a f cam in a 351w. Now he wants to put this in The Beast during the rebuild.

I asked a couple guys at work that do a lot of engine work and they said to not put that in for a daily driver. That the f cam was something that they would use in their vehicles for the strip. Then they started throwing stats and specs at me and I was lost.. :nabble_anim_confused: I stopped them and told them to remember that I have no clue what I'm doing but am willing to learn. So they slowed down and tried to explain it to me and they ended up losing me again. So they broke it down in kindergarten terms so I could get it and told me if I wanted to keep it a daily and increase torque that I should look into something that is a 260 cam to put in. Or at most, go with a 268 cam if I wanted to "rumble" sound but in their opinions it would be a waste of money and do nothing for the engine, driving, gas mileage with it.

So for number one, does this make sense to people here that know 351w and cams?

2. I'd like to replace my stock intake manifold when I rebuild.

I have an Edelbrock 1406 carburetor so I did some research and found THIS intake manifold that'll match my carb, sit higher on the engine and improve overall performance.

Is this overkill or is there something else comparable that'll work?

As a refresher, I'm not looking into making this a show truck or a drag truck. MY (not my son's) overall goal is that I want it as a Daily Driver with the capability of having a little fun now and then. If my son had 100% say (and a blank check) in this it would be a 600 hp beast with a turbo, suck premium gas like a fish with water.

Any suggestions, ideas or redirects are welcome as usual!!!

Another Comp Cam guy here. Not a 351w mind you, but I went with a Comp Cam XE256H in my 302 build. It moves the power range to the 1000-5200 RPM. I bought the complete kit that came with everything, part number K31-234-3, or for a 351w it would be K35-234-3. I used my stock pushrods and stamped rockers.

I wanted some of that hotrod idle sound and feel, and the XE256H nailed it. My truck doesn't haul or tow anything, it's just strictly a cruiser. I had originally selected and purchased the XE250H, but the shop that built my engine pushed me towards the XE256H. Now that I have it, I wouldn't want anything any bigger, I can say that much. I find that Youtube videos don't transfer sound very well, but here she is in her partially finished glory...

For the intake I went with the Edelbrock Performer Non-EGR intake. As noted above it is the lowest end 4bbl intake, but I was switching from the stock 2bbl to a Holley 4bbl, so it was an upgrade for me. I did however install a 1" thick plastic intake spacer, same as the one linked below:

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15491/10002/-1

The guy that built and dyno'd my engine suggested this, and I needed it anyway since I'm running an open air cleaner. And, even with a flat bottomed open air cleaner, I still had to use a spacer on top of the carb to get the air cleaner to clear the stock DSII distributor. Everything else lined up perfectly with this spacer...stock Ford throttle bracket and cable, etc. The engine builder also blocked off the exhaust crossover ports. I was indifferent to this, but he recommended it and my engine runs well this way.

Here she is on the dyno last year:

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Another Comp Cam guy here. Not a 351w mind you, but I went with a Comp Cam XE256H in my 302 build. It moves the power range to the 1000-5200 RPM. I bought the complete kit that came with everything, part number K31-234-3, or for a 351w it would be K35-234-3. I used my stock pushrods and stamped rockers.

I wanted some of that hotrod idle sound and feel, and the XE256H nailed it. My truck doesn't haul or tow anything, it's just strictly a cruiser. I had originally selected and purchased the XE250H, but the shop that built my engine pushed me towards the XE256H. Now that I have it, I wouldn't want anything any bigger, I can say that much. I find that Youtube videos don't transfer sound very well, but here she is in her partially finished glory...

For the intake I went with the Edelbrock Performer Non-EGR intake. As noted above it is the lowest end 4bbl intake, but I was switching from the stock 2bbl to a Holley 4bbl, so it was an upgrade for me. I did however install a 1" thick plastic intake spacer, same as the one linked below:

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15491/10002/-1

The guy that built and dyno'd my engine suggested this, and I needed it anyway since I'm running an open air cleaner. And, even with a flat bottomed open air cleaner, I still had to use a spacer on top of the carb to get the air cleaner to clear the stock DSII distributor. Everything else lined up perfectly with this spacer...stock Ford throttle bracket and cable, etc. The engine builder also blocked off the exhaust crossover ports. I was indifferent to this, but he recommended it and my engine runs well this way.

Here she is on the dyno last year:

'Mornin Cory!

East Coast Represent!

That's some good Windsor specific advise.

I too like the Xtreme Energy line.

Thanks for the sound clip.

I didn't know about drop air cleaners hitting the dizzy on a Windsor.

There's a lot of acreage on a big block!

Blocking the crossover helps some with charge cooling, but makes for a VERY sluggish beast in winter, unless you have a LOT of choke setting.

I wouldn't recommend it for a DD.

Do you know how advanced your cam is over stock?

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Another Comp Cam guy here. Not a 351w mind you, but I went with a Comp Cam XE256H in my 302 build. It moves the power range to the 1000-5200 RPM. I bought the complete kit that came with everything, part number K31-234-3, or for a 351w it would be K35-234-3. I used my stock pushrods and stamped rockers.

I wanted some of that hotrod idle sound and feel, and the XE256H nailed it. My truck doesn't haul or tow anything, it's just strictly a cruiser. I had originally selected and purchased the XE250H, but the shop that built my engine pushed me towards the XE256H. Now that I have it, I wouldn't want anything any bigger, I can say that much. I find that Youtube videos don't transfer sound very well, but here she is in her partially finished glory...

For the intake I went with the Edelbrock Performer Non-EGR intake. As noted above it is the lowest end 4bbl intake, but I was switching from the stock 2bbl to a Holley 4bbl, so it was an upgrade for me. I did however install a 1" thick plastic intake spacer, same as the one linked below:

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15491/10002/-1

The guy that built and dyno'd my engine suggested this, and I needed it anyway since I'm running an open air cleaner. And, even with a flat bottomed open air cleaner, I still had to use a spacer on top of the carb to get the air cleaner to clear the stock DSII distributor. Everything else lined up perfectly with this spacer...stock Ford throttle bracket and cable, etc. The engine builder also blocked off the exhaust crossover ports. I was indifferent to this, but he recommended it and my engine runs well this way.

Here she is on the dyno last year:

Note what Cory said about a different part # for a 351 cam.

This has to do with firing order, and you could just swap plug wires around to make it work if you wanted to.

The Windsors are essentially the same, except the 351 has more stroke, deck height, and a wider intake manifold..

[ArdWrknTrk]

For the timing should I go with the 2138 since it's a mid range set.

I would probably go with the Cloyes 3057.

A basic roller chain.

Unless you're going to spend time dynoing (and tearing down-reassembling) your truck you really don't need adjustability.

Advance is 'ground into' the cam.

Cloyes is a solid choice that will last for years and stretch your budget.

I have the 385 version in my truck.

Rollers have a bit of blower whine, vs the stock hyvo type chain.

But they don't eat the sprockets.

 

[Rembrant]

Blocking the crossover helps some with charge cooling, but makes for a VERY sluggish beast in winter, unless you have a LOT of choke setting.

I wouldn't recommend it for a DD.

Do you know how advanced your cam is over stock?

My truck is now only a summer cruiser, so cold winter starts were not much of a consideration. I will drive it in the cold, but only if the roads are dry, and if there's no salt on them. If it takes a little longer to warm up in this weather, I don't mind. (Side note, for what my truck lacks in air conditioning in the summer, it makes up for it in heating in the cold!).

As for the "built-in" advance in the Comp Cam XE line, I don't know specifically, but I seem to recall there being 4 degrees over stock. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that the Comp Cam had 2 degrees built in, and the stock cam was 2 degrees retarded? Maybe it was only 2 degrees overall, and the Comp Cam was "zero". Not sure here...

Camshaft selection is annoying...lol. I drove myself close to the brink of insanity trying to pick one. There are a lot of options for the SBF. One thing is certain...if you go looking, you'll find a lot of people running the Comp Cam XE line, and with the trucks specifically you'll often see the XE250H, and with it a lot of happy customers. If there is a "safe" choice to make, I think that would have to be it. Since my truck is just something for novelty use, I did want a little bit of that rumble that the 5.0's are so well known for, and that was what drove my choice towards the XE256H. As I mentioned above, I had originally planned on the XE250H, but the engine builder pushed me towards the XE256H, and since I originally wanted this cam, it was an easy choice once I had a builder suggesting it. Keep in mind this builder specializes in performance engines, so that is where their bias is.

The thing I liked about the Edelbrock Performer intake was that everything fit right into place like my stock intake. My coil, throttle bracket, ground cable, temp sender, etc all went right back into place with stock hardware. It made for a clean and simple installation and assembly.

Here is a video of my engine and you can see where the air cleaner assembly is sitting on top of the distributor (and coil). This is with a 1" spacer under the carb and another 1/2" or 3/4" spacer on top of the carb. Mind you it is a larger air cleaner...14" I think.

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Blocking the crossover helps some with charge cooling, but makes for a VERY sluggish beast in winter, unless you have a LOT of choke setting.

I wouldn't recommend it for a DD.

Do you know how advanced your cam is over stock?

My truck is now only a summer cruiser, so cold winter starts were not much of a consideration. I will drive it in the cold, but only if the roads are dry, and if there's no salt on them. If it takes a little longer to warm up in this weather, I don't mind. (Side note, for what my truck lacks in air conditioning in the summer, it makes up for it in heating in the cold!).

As for the "built-in" advance in the Comp Cam XE line, I don't know specifically, but I seem to recall there being 4 degrees over stock. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that the Comp Cam had 2 degrees built in, and the stock cam was 2 degrees retarded? Maybe it was only 2 degrees overall, and the Comp Cam was "zero". Not sure here...

Camshaft selection is annoying...lol. I drove myself close to the brink of insanity trying to pick one. There are a lot of options for the SBF. One thing is certain...if you go looking, you'll find a lot of people running the Comp Cam XE line, and with the trucks specifically you'll often see the XE250H, and with it a lot of happy customers. If there is a "safe" choice to make, I think that would have to be it. Since my truck is just something for novelty use, I did want a little bit of that rumble that the 5.0's are so well known for, and that was what drove my choice towards the XE256H. As I mentioned above, I had originally planned on the XE250H, but the engine builder pushed me towards the XE256H, and since I originally wanted this cam, it was an easy choice once I had a builder suggesting it. Keep in mind this builder specializes in performance engines, so that is where their bias is.

The thing I liked about the Edelbrock Performer intake was that everything fit right into place like my stock intake. My coil, throttle bracket, ground cable, temp sender, etc all went right back into place with stock hardware. It made for a clean and simple installation and assembly.

Here is a video of my engine and you can see where the air cleaner assembly is sitting on top of the distributor (and coil). This is with a 1" spacer under the carb and another 1/2" or 3/4" spacer on top of the carb. Mind you it is a larger air cleaner...14" I think.

Yeah, I think blocking the crossover is a no go for DD.

BUT you can use a restrictor in each side by drilling a hole in the plate. *idea!

The 256 XE is really popular for good reasons.

If Pebcak likes his chili spicy it may be the best choice.

The slight rise of the RPM manifold may help clearance.

It won't hurt bottom end much and it will breathe better on top.

IDK what he intends to use for an air cleaner.

With an Air Gap you might have to run a drop cleaner to keep from putting the stud into the hood.

But that's not for a DD.

"Straight up" refers to the crank keyway in a timing set.

Yes, it is affecting advance, but the cam grind is completely different from that.

[Rembrant]

"Straight up" refers to the crank keyway in a timing set.

Yes, it is affecting advance, but the cam grind is completely different from that.

My bad. I remembered reading that when I was studying camshafts and timing and I thought that "straight-up" was referring to the cam being Zero degrees.

 

[Gary Lewis]

Yeah, I think blocking the crossover is a no go for DD.

BUT you can use a restrictor in each side by drilling a hole in the plate. *idea!

The 256 XE is really popular for good reasons.

If Pebcak likes his chili spicy it may be the best choice.

The slight rise of the RPM manifold may help clearance.

It won't hurt bottom end much and it will breathe better on top.

IDK what he intends to use for an air cleaner.

With an Air Gap you might have to run a drop cleaner to keep from putting the stud into the hood.

But that's not for a DD.

"Straight up" refers to the crank keyway in a timing set.

Yes, it is affecting advance, but the cam grind is completely different from that.

Don't forget that a bigger engine tends to make a cam "smaller". In other words, the XE256H on a 351 will have less lope and a lower RPM range than on a 302. And on a 408 it'll be even more mild.

Also, Don/Pebcak is in Texas, just north of Forth Worth. So his "cold" isn't Cory's "cold".

If it was me, I'd call Comp and ask them what they recommend. I say that because they have several different cam series for the 351W, as shown on this page under Hydraulic Flat Tappet.

And, to top all that off Comp has the Thumpr cams, which aren't shown in that list.

Again, I'd call Comp and tell them what you are wanting to do, Don. They'll ask all the right questions about vehicle, weight, usage, transmission, torque converter, gears, intake, exhaust, carburetion, compression ratio, etc. And they'll sort through a very complex issue and give you a recommendation.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Don't forget that a bigger engine tends to make a cam "smaller". In other words, the XE256H on a 351 will have less lope and a lower RPM range than on a 302. And on a 408 it'll be even more mild.

Also, Don/Pebcak is in Texas, just north of Forth Worth. So his "cold" isn't Cory's "cold".

If it was me, I'd call Comp and ask them what they recommend. I say that because they have several different cam series for the 351W, as shown on this page under Hydraulic Flat Tappet.

And, to top all that off Comp has the Thumpr cams, which aren't shown in that list.

Again, I'd call Comp and tell them what you are wanting to do, Don. They'll ask all the right questions about vehicle, weight, usage, transmission, torque converter, gears, intake, exhaust, carburetion, compression ratio, etc. And they'll sort through a very complex issue and give you a recommendation.

Okay 'Don'

Advice from the manufacturer or engine builder is almost always good!

Remember Gary that you can make up for a 'small' cam with rocker ratio.

(to the point of coil bind)

Edit: gear and tire choice make a big difference in how the truck will drive.

[Rembrant]

Edit: gear and tire choice make a big difference in how the truck will drive.

Yes sir, everything has to be considered in the complete package. My little Bullnose weighs in just a hair under 3400 lbs, which is quite light compared to a 8-lug 4x4 with a big block. Add bumpers and other accessories and it goes up from there. Earlier on I wondered why the truck guys were hating on the little 302 so much, but when I consider what my truck might feel like with another 2000 lbs added to it, I might not like my 302 either...lol.

I agree with Gary on talking to the Cam manufacturers, and then you can take their recommendation and make a choice from there. I spoke to both Crane and Comp at the time, and they recommended similar but slightly different cams. I think the complete kits with lifters and timing chain are a good option too, and Summit and Jegs and everybody else sells them.