ArdWrknTrk Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Ok, this is what I got from my son on what work they were going to do when he was first talking to the shop. I will be asking for more details and ask them to check on the seals and all. Please understand I'm just transcribing what Chance sent to me over a text. For $375: - Block Prep - Magna Flux (I'm assuming to check the block since I overheated it all) - Steam Cleam - Deck Surface Check - Test Fit Cam - Check Cyl Bores - Install Core Plugs - Galley Plugs $180 if it needs to be "Decked" $200 to bore out to a .030 because of age, wear, tear and the overheating I'll know more once we're getting closer to taking the engine in. Chance is saying the "Test Fit Cam" was quoting the also. I'll have to see to be sure. I don't know because I haven't looked into this side of it yet. I'm just getting documentation together so I know what I need to get and why. Okay, so $375 seems like clean and get a baseline. 'check cam' makes me think they will slide the new cam in and check clearance. Maybe just that the block.is.straight Definitely not to.install new bearings and line bore to size. If it needs decked, have them take it down to get some compression. Pay the price and move forward. You will also need to narrow the intake manifold. Make sure they have it in hand if the block is decked. How many miles are on it again? Once they check bores, you can order pistons and they should bore it to size and gap the rings with them in hand. 0.030" over is usually first overbore. Hopefully wear isn't too bad. Well, first thoughts in reply. Progress is Good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebcak Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 Okay, so $375 seems like clean and get a baseline. 'check cam' makes me think they will slide the new cam in and check clearance. Maybe just that the block.is.straight Definitely not to.install new bearings and line bore to size. If it needs decked, have them take it down to get some compression. Pay the price and move forward. You will also need to narrow the intake manifold. Make sure they have it in hand if the block is decked. How many miles are on it again? Once they check bores, you can order pistons and they should bore it to size and gap the rings with them in hand. 0.030" over is usually first overbore. Hopefully wear isn't too bad. Well, first thoughts in reply. Progress is Good! - I'll get the exhaust manifolds off and cleaned up before sending the engine in. - Narrow the intake manifold? FOOD REFERENCES MAN! - Miles on the engine? No clue. Original engine. I was "told" they rebuilt it probably 7-10 years ago by now. Nothing concrete of how much they rebuilt. The seals did look new on the exhaust manifolds and block though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 - I'll get the exhaust manifolds off and cleaned up before sending the engine in. - Narrow the intake manifold? FOOD REFERENCES MAN! - Miles on the engine? No clue. Original engine. I was "told" they rebuilt it probably 7-10 years ago by now. Nothing concrete of how much they rebuilt. The seals did look new on the exhaust manifolds and block though. Ok, food is going to be tough, but I'll give it a go. First, here's an article explaining the problem: https://www.autoserviceworld.com/jobbernews/cylinder-head-machining-and-manifold-mismatch/ When machining a deck flat to take out warp you're essentially removing a thin slice of material in one plane. If the surface has a curve (warp) or has been flame notched -run with combustion across the sealing face- eroding a groove, the deck needs to be cut back flat. *** and BOTH decks need to be the same distance from crank centerline*** If you wanted more compression (without buying performance pistons) you could shave both decks considerably, to make the space left above the piston at top dead center smaller. The V-8 engine has a 90* V angle... If the engine's V is 90*, and the intake sits between the two heads, we need to peel some potatoes. Now the BIG stretch to food.... Do you know what a mandolin is? Like a giant potato peeler, or a hand plane for wood, upside down. So let's peel our way around the potato. *or a wheel of cheese* When we get back to where we started we find we have eight faces, octagonal in section like a stop sign. If we wanted to make potato chips *or cheese slices* we'd keep peeling, just like shaving the block down to straighten out a warp or notch. If we skipped one face and started peeling the second (90*) face, the face between them (the manifold to block surface) would get narrow. We started with eight facets, each 1" wide, but when we shaved two sides to 1 1/2" wide, the face between them became narrower by the ratio of 1:1.4142 (The hypotenuse of a square) Now the manifold is too wide to fit down between the heads to reach the lifter valley. And the ports and bolt holes don't match up, so we need to mill the three faces of the manifold so it fits again. Engine history can give a good idea of what wear to expect. With no history I can't say how much ridge or oval to expect in the cylinders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rembrant Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 0.030" over is usually first overbore. The shop that built mine did a 0.020" overbore, but I was expecting 0.030". If I recall correctly they decked the block down to 0.005" (it was at 0.014" if I remember correctly...my memory is getting fuzzy on this stuff). What heads are on this 351 anyway? D8? E7? Or other?>.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 0.030" over is usually first overbore. The shop that built mine did a 0.020" overbore, but I was expecting 0.030". If I recall correctly they decked the block down to 0.005" (it was at 0.014" if I remember correctly...my memory is getting fuzzy on this stuff). What heads are on this 351 anyway? D8? E7? Or other?>.. 'morning Cory. It's an '86 so I would say D8. It this were a performance rebuild there would be better options, like Exploder heads, but the heads are already done, so.... 0.020 over pistons should be available, but most master rebuild sets will start at 30 thou because that ensures most block bores will clean up for taper and oval. Buying a 'kit' is cost effective and ensures no mismatch. Do places like PAW still exist? I remember buying by mail order back before the internet -as we know it now- was a thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARIAT 85 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Don't pick a cam because it sounds cool. Pick it for the RPM range where it is effective. I'm not pushing Comp Cams, but their website explains things pretty well. They have several series of cams for the 351W, but the one I'm familiar with is the Xtreme Energy series. Their cams are listed by their duration, which is the spec that your friends were quoting. And, each of the cams has the RPM range where the cam works best. So, with that you can figure out what you want to do. I installed their XE250H in a 351W and was very pleased. They show the power range as 600 to 4800, and I can confirm that it ran very well. Strong torque just off idle, and it ran very well! As for the intake manifold, the 2181 is the one I'd pick. But it is a non-EGR unit, so if you are going to run EGR you'll need the 3781. I also used a Comp Cams XE250H on Lucille, 31-230-3. But my truck has a 5.0/302 engine. I am very happy with it and it also sounds cool. From what I understand, a high lift, short duration cam like this one helps to retain good low-end torque. That is important when trying to move a full-size truck. More so when you are trying to do that with a relatively small engine. The tighter lobe separation on this cam is what gives it a cool, slightly choppy sound on an otherwise short duration cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebcak Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 Ok, food is going to be tough, but I'll give it a go. First, here's an article explaining the problem: https://www.autoserviceworld.com/jobbernews/cylinder-head-machining-and-manifold-mismatch/ When machining a deck flat to take out warp you're essentially removing a thin slice of material in one plane. If the surface has a curve (warp) or has been flame notched -run with combustion across the sealing face- eroding a groove, the deck needs to be cut back flat. *** and BOTH decks need to be the same distance from crank centerline*** If you wanted more compression (without buying performance pistons) you could shave both decks considerably, to make the space left above the piston at top dead center smaller. The V-8 engine has a 90* V angle... If the engine's V is 90*, and the intake sits between the two heads, we need to peel some potatoes. Now the BIG stretch to food.... Do you know what a mandolin is? Like a giant potato peeler, or a hand plane for wood, upside down. So let's peel our way around the potato. *or a wheel of cheese* When we get back to where we started we find we have eight faces, octagonal in section like a stop sign. If we wanted to make potato chips *or cheese slices* we'd keep peeling, just like shaving the block down to straighten out a warp or notch. If we skipped one face and started peeling the second (90*) face, the face between them (the manifold to block surface) would get narrow. We started with eight facets, each 1" wide, but when we shaved two sides to 1 1/2" wide, the face between them became narrower by the ratio of 1:1.4142 (The hypotenuse of a square) Now the manifold is too wide to fit down between the heads to reach the lifter valley. And the ports and bolt holes don't match up, so we need to mill the three faces of the manifold so it fits again. Engine history can give a good idea of what wear to expect. With no history I can't say how much ridge or oval to expect in the cylinders. Ok. Potatoes, eight faces and cheese wheel. Got it! Seriously, I'm getting a grasp of what you're meaning. I had a vision in my head with what you explained and pulled up some videos/pictures today while here at work. I really appreciate the help and making sure I don't miss anything big. I'm going to get the manifolds taken off and all cleaned up before having the engine sent in. That way they can go in together. There is no engine history that I have. The 3rd/4th hand story I was given is: A father bought this truck from a farmer about 10 years ago and had the engine "Freshened Up" and got it all working to drive for this son. When he gave it to his teenage son it was not appreciated and the child said something to the effect of "I'm not driving it." The father said fine and sold it to the guy I bought it from. He fixed it up a little to drive around here and there to do feed runs, parts and such on the weekends. He did have the transmission rebuilt while owning it. If you look at the Pictures area you'll see the start of my adventure. Other than what's posted there, I had to have the transmission rebuilt again. My shop found out that the previous place cob jobed it together with parts laying around their shop. There were over drive and regular transmission parts mixed together to get it working. They strippe dit down and rebuilt it for me then. That's about all I know before me owning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Ok. Potatoes, eight faces and cheese wheel. Got it! Seriously, I'm getting a grasp of what you're meaning. I had a vision in my head with what you explained and pulled up some videos/pictures today while here at work. I really appreciate the help and making sure I don't miss anything big. I'm going to get the manifolds taken off and all cleaned up before having the engine sent in. That way they can go in together. There is no engine history that I have. The 3rd/4th hand story I was given is: A father bought this truck from a farmer about 10 years ago and had the engine "Freshened Up" and got it all working to drive for this son. When he gave it to his teenage son it was not appreciated and the child said something to the effect of "I'm not driving it." The father said fine and sold it to the guy I bought it from. He fixed it up a little to drive around here and there to do feed runs, parts and such on the weekends. He did have the transmission rebuilt while owning it. If you look at the Pictures area you'll see the start of my adventure. Other than what's posted there, I had to have the transmission rebuilt again. My shop found out that the previous place cob jobed it together with parts laying around their shop. There were over drive and regular transmission parts mixed together to get it working. They strippe dit down and rebuilt it for me then. That's about all I know before me owning it. Don - What is your ETA on the project? Mid-September? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebcak Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 Don - What is your ETA on the project? Mid-September? Honestly, I'm saving up a little here and there to do all of this. The Mrs and I are trying to get things settled up with credit and the property ready to sell/move in a year or two. As you all can understand, I take this all as priority over The Beast. Right now I'm calculating: Cam Kit - $300ish New Intake Manifold - $300ish Engine - $800 Odd's and ends while my son are putting things back together - $500 WAG.... This is just me thinking with my knowledge. All of y'all that have done rebuilds before know better than I do. I know I'm probably missing something. Where's the lottery when you need it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Ok. Potatoes, eight faces and cheese wheel. Got it! Seriously, I'm getting a grasp of what you're meaning. I had a vision in my head with what you explained and pulled up some videos/pictures today while here at work. I really appreciate the help and making sure I don't miss anything big. I'm going to get the manifolds taken off and all cleaned up before having the engine sent in. That way they can go in together. There is no engine history that I have. The 3rd/4th hand story I was given is: A father bought this truck from a farmer about 10 years ago and had the engine "Freshened Up" and got it all working to drive for this son. When he gave it to his teenage son it was not appreciated and the child said something to the effect of "I'm not driving it." The father said fine and sold it to the guy I bought it from. He fixed it up a little to drive around here and there to do feed runs, parts and such on the weekends. He did have the transmission rebuilt while owning it. If you look at the Pictures area you'll see the start of my adventure. Other than what's posted there, I had to have the transmission rebuilt again. My shop found out that the previous place cob jobed it together with parts laying around their shop. There were over drive and regular transmission parts mixed together to get it working. They strippe dit down and rebuilt it for me then. That's about all I know before me owning it. No, no! The INTAKE manifold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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