Don's (Pebcak) 351 upgrade Project

[Pebcak]

If you look at my Belated Happy Father's Day post you'll see that my son wants to rebuild the engine with me. We've got a start and some ideas. But as usual, I was to research things before we go down a rabbit hole.

So here I go with a couple questions.

1. My son found

video of a f cam in a 351w. Now he wants to put this in The Beast during the rebuild.

I asked a couple guys at work that do a lot of engine work and they said to not put that in for a daily driver. That the f cam was something that they would use in their vehicles for the strip. Then they started throwing stats and specs at me and I was lost.. :nabble_anim_confused: I stopped them and told them to remember that I have no clue what I'm doing but am willing to learn. So they slowed down and tried to explain it to me and they ended up losing me again. So they broke it down in kindergarten terms so I could get it and told me if I wanted to keep it a daily and increase torque that I should look into something that is a 260 cam to put in. Or at most, go with a 268 cam if I wanted to "rumble" sound but in their opinions it would be a waste of money and do nothing for the engine, driving, gas mileage with it.

So for number one, does this make sense to people here that know 351w and cams?

2. I'd like to replace my stock intake manifold when I rebuild.

I have an Edelbrock 1406 carburetor so I did some research and found THIS intake manifold that'll match my carb, sit higher on the engine and improve overall performance.

Is this overkill or is there something else comparable that'll work?

As a refresher, I'm not looking into making this a show truck or a drag truck. MY (not my son's) overall goal is that I want it as a Daily Driver with the capability of having a little fun now and then. If my son had 100% say (and a blank check) in this it would be a 600 hp beast with a turbo, suck premium gas like a fish with water.

Any suggestions, ideas or redirects are welcome as usual!!!

[Gary Lewis]

If you look at my Belated Happy Father's Day post you'll see that my son wants to rebuild the engine with me. We've got a start and some ideas. But as usual, I was to research things before we go down a rabbit hole.

So here I go with a couple questions.

1. My son found

video of a f cam in a 351w. Now he wants to put this in The Beast during the rebuild.

I asked a couple guys at work that do a lot of engine work and they said to not put that in for a daily driver. That the f cam was something that they would use in their vehicles for the strip. Then they started throwing stats and specs at me and I was lost.. :nabble_anim_confused: I stopped them and told them to remember that I have no clue what I'm doing but am willing to learn. So they slowed down and tried to explain it to me and they ended up losing me again. So they broke it down in kindergarten terms so I could get it and told me if I wanted to keep it a daily and increase torque that I should look into something that is a 260 cam to put in. Or at most, go with a 268 cam if I wanted to "rumble" sound but in their opinions it would be a waste of money and do nothing for the engine, driving, gas mileage with it.

So for number one, does this make sense to people here that know 351w and cams?

2. I'd like to replace my stock intake manifold when I rebuild.

I have an Edelbrock 1406 carburetor so I did some research and found THIS intake manifold that'll match my carb, sit higher on the engine and improve overall performance.

Is this overkill or is there something else comparable that'll work?

As a refresher, I'm not looking into making this a show truck or a drag truck. MY (not my son's) overall goal is that I want it as a Daily Driver with the capability of having a little fun now and then. If my son had 100% say (and a blank check) in this it would be a 600 hp beast with a turbo, suck premium gas like a fish with water.

Any suggestions, ideas or redirects are welcome as usual!!!

Don't pick a cam because it sounds cool. Pick it for the RPM range where it is effective. I'm not pushing Comp Cams, but their website explains things pretty well.

They have several series of cams for the 351W, but the one I'm familiar with is the Xtreme Energy series. Their cams are listed by their duration, which is the spec that your friends were quoting. And, each of the cams has the RPM range where the cam works best. So, with that you can figure out what you want to do.

I installed their XE250H in a 351W and was very pleased. They show the power range as 600 to 4800, and I can confirm that it ran very well. Strong torque just off idle, and it ran very well!

As for the intake manifold, the 2181 is the one I'd pick. But it is a non-EGR unit, so if you are going to run EGR you'll need the 3781.

[Pebcak]

Don't pick a cam because it sounds cool. Pick it for the RPM range where it is effective. I'm not pushing Comp Cams, but their website explains things pretty well.

They have several series of cams for the 351W, but the one I'm familiar with is the Xtreme Energy series. Their cams are listed by their duration, which is the spec that your friends were quoting. And, each of the cams has the RPM range where the cam works best. So, with that you can figure out what you want to do.

I installed their XE250H in a 351W and was very pleased. They show the power range as 600 to 4800, and I can confirm that it ran very well. Strong torque just off idle, and it ran very well!

As for the intake manifold, the 2181 is the one I'd pick. But it is a non-EGR unit, so if you are going to run EGR you'll need the 3781.

With the cam, since my son got the heads refurbished, do I need to change the springs and lifters? Or get a cam and new timing chain?

For the intake I'm assuming I had no EGR since that has to do with emissions right? When I got the truck all emissions was already taken off.

Sorry this is short. At Whataburger and on my phone.

[ArdWrknTrk]

With the cam, since my son got the heads refurbished, do I need to change the springs and lifters? Or get a cam and new timing chain?

For the intake I'm assuming I had no EGR since that has to do with emissions right? When I got the truck all emissions was already taken off.

Sorry this is short. At Whataburger and on my phone.

It depends on the cam lift and the coil bind height of the springs used.

(also the spring pressure at base circle and full lift)

Don't be afraid to change springs if they won't work with your cam choice or have so much seat pressure you'll only get 1,200 miles before wiping the lobes or sinking the valves.

Building an engine for performance and economy is not throwing a jumble of parts at it.

The parts have to work in harmony.

.... it's like seasoning chili.

'but I like it hot' does not mean throw a bunch of ghost peppers in.

It means find the right *balance* of meat to fat, cumin, bay, salt, onion, whatever...

[ArdWrknTrk]

If you look at my post you'll see that my son wants to rebuild the engine with me. We've got a start and some ideas. But as usual, I was to research things before we go down a rabbit hole.

I have an Edelbrock 1406 carburetor so I did some research and found THIS intake manifold that'll match my carb, sit higher on the engine and improve overall performance.

Is this overkill or is there something else comparable that'll work?

As a refresher, I'm not looking into making this a show truck or a drag truck. MY (not my son's) overall goal is that I want it as a Daily Driver with the capability of having a little fun now and then.

I'm a 385 series guy, but you might look at some 'proven builds' on Windsor forums.

The Performer is essentially a stock manifold with a little better flowing runners.

Height is not really much.

Performance is not really that much

You might look at the RPM.

The Air Gap means no cold weather heated floor (poor warm-up)

The Weiand Stealth is like a Performer with more runner volume (in 385 at least) and you gain on top while losing a little signal strength on the bottom.

[Pebcak]

It depends on the cam lift and the coil bind height of the springs used.

(also the spring pressure at base circle and full lift)

Don't be afraid to change springs if they won't work with your cam choice or have so much seat pressure you'll only get 1,200 miles before wiping the lobes or sinking the valves.

Building an engine for performance and economy is not throwing a jumble of parts at it.

The parts have to work in harmony.

.... it's like seasoning chili.

'but I like it hot' does not mean throw a bunch of ghost peppers in.

It means find the right *balance* of meat to fat, cumin, bay, salt, onion, whatever...

One thing I understand is Chili and Heat! Now you're talking my language!

I had a chance to look at this more once I got home.

So far I'm thinking of going with the XE250H cam.

For the timing should I go with the 2138 since it's a mid range set. You know, kinda like Habenaro instead of Jalapeno or Ghost Peppers. Something in the middle.

Unfortunately you lost me with the "base circle" and "full lift" stuff. . Since it's so late, I'll try to read up on this and educate myself tomorrow.

I don't want to go cheap on this and end up having to redo things later. I just want to do this project right.

[ArdWrknTrk]

With the cam, since my son got the heads refurbished, do I need to change the springs and lifters? Or get a cam and new timing chain?

For the intake I'm assuming I had no EGR since that has to do with emissions right? When I got the truck all emissions was already taken off.

EGR is still there in your photo....

It's the spacer under the carb, and the reason a 'higher' intake is suggested, to make up for the 7/8(?) that you will lose without it.

ALWAYS use new lifters with a new cam.

In fact, if you are unsure, get a kit with cam lifters and springs from Summit, Jegs, Crane, Edelbrock, Comp, or another major brand.

You should probably get a new double roller timing set too. (when was the last time you changed it?)

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

One thing I understand is Chili and Heat! Now you're talking my language!

I had a chance to look at this more once I got home.

So far I'm thinking of going with the XE250H cam.

For the timing should I go with the 2138 since it's a mid range set. You know, kinda like Habenaro instead of Jalapeno or Ghost Peppers. Something in the middle.

Unfortunately you lost me with the "base circle" and "full lift" stuff. . Since it's so late, I'll try to read up on this and educate myself tomorrow.

I don't want to go cheap on this and end up having to redo things later. I just want to do this project right.

Im glad I could make an analogy you relate to.

Sorry, I had to take an important phone call,,,,

Ok, while we can all relate to food:

A cam has egg shaped lobes.

The tip of the egg is the full lift of the cam.

The base circle is the round bottom, where the valve would be sitting on its seat.

Lift is the difference in radius.

The spring which closes the valve still has to hold the valve on its seat.

This is seat pressure, at installed height. (The distance between the spring seat, and the bottom of the retainer)

When the cam point has lifted the lifter, and the rocker is pushing the valve wide open, there needs to be room between the winds of the spring.

If the spring coils are touching (coil bind) before the cam reaches full lift you are going to bend pushrods (hopefully!)

Rocker arms also have different ratios. The fulcrum of the see-saw.

If one side is longer it raises farther from the ground....

By changing the pivot point you can -in essence- make the cam 'bigger' while every event stays proportional.

The lumpy cam idle your son likes comes from more overlap (How long both the intake and exhaust valve are open at the same time.) and wider lobes.

Closer lobe centers and wider lobes (think of hands on a clock, but eggs. Think of a duck egg instead of a chicken egg) are good for dragsters.

This allows the engine to bleed off some pressure at idle (that raspy, lumpy sound) while at higher rpms (shorter event time) the momentum of the intake charge just pushes into the cylinder instead of getting pushed back out.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Im glad I could make an analogy you relate to.

Sorry, I had to take an important phone call,,,,

Ok, while we can all relate to food:

A cam has egg shaped lobes.

The tip of the egg is the full lift of the cam.

The base circle is the round bottom, where the valve would be sitting on its seat.

Lift is the difference in radius.

The spring which closes the valve still has to hold the valve on its seat.

This is seat pressure, at installed height. (The distance between the spring seat, and the bottom of the retainer)

When the cam point has lifted the lifter, and the rocker is pushing the valve wide open, there needs to be room between the winds of the spring.

If the spring coils are touching (coil bind) before the cam reaches full lift you are going to bend pushrods (hopefully!)

Rocker arms also have different ratios. The fulcrum of the see-saw.

If one side is longer it raises farther from the ground....

By changing the pivot point you can -in essence- make the cam 'bigger' while every event stays proportional.

The lumpy cam idle your son likes comes from more overlap (How long both the intake and exhaust valve are open at the same time.) and wider lobes.

Closer lobe centers and wider lobes (think of hands on a clock, but eggs. Think of a duck egg instead of a chicken egg) are good for dragsters.

This allows the engine to bleed off some pressure at idle (that raspy, lumpy sound) while at higher rpms (shorter event time) the momentum of the intake charge just pushes into the cylinder instead of getting pushed back out.

Okay class, kindergarten is over for today...

Like I said, I have general knowledge, not much specific to Windsors.

Have you considered a 408?

Scat or Eagle cranks aren't too steep and "there's no replacement for displacement"

An extra 57 cubic inches,(16.25%) plus the increased compression it brings, will really wake that engine up without having to spin it to the moon.

[ArdWrknTrk]

So they broke it down in kindergarten terms so I could get it and told me if I wanted to keep it a daily and increase torque that I should look into something that is a 260 cam to put in. Or at most, go with a 268 cam if I wanted to "rumble" sound but in their opinions it would be a waste of money and do nothing...

Okay, I'm still up at 2:30 so I may as well keep blabbing.. (Gary? bla bla bla smiley? I know they have it over there in 'the old country')

250, 256 are a measure of the duration (in degrees) of valve opening -at 0.050" lift-

You'd look a a cam and think 'pretty simple' but before computer modeling, cam making was as much a dark art like alchemy, as it was a simple formula.

Lift, lobe center angle, duration, ramp profiles and cam timing relative to crank (keyway) advance or retard, are some but not all the factors that need to be considered.