ArdWrknTrk Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 My 1980 with the stock starter on the 400 had that problem intermittently (starter solenoid would get stuck until I pulled the power or hit the solenoid hard enough) so just last week I swapped the junky one out with a motorcraft unit (possibly just a little less junky ). I think we are on the same page that swapping to a pmgr setup is an improvement. My whole point was just that whether you swap to a Precision pmgr, Powermaster, or stay with stock the roadside issue wouldn't be significant. And I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 This site (I won't list a link as I don't exactly know what the site is for) listed: Innocent, willful, arrogant, domain, and enlightened. I think I prefer your four though :) I was waiting to get bit with "you're so ignorant, you don't even know ignorant!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve83 Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 The big problem with the original starter is it's extremely high current draw...It's only ~50A (~25%) higher than PMGR, assuming both starters, the engines, & the cranking systems (including battery terminals) are working right. I'm still using the old-style starter on my Bronco, and it works fine.The original Ford relays on the fender were designed to handle the current draw without much problem, where the problem today lies is that most sources are now getting the relays made in China. The copper alloy the Chinese ones use is apparently very soft...Designed, but not very well; the originals were still susceptible to the same failure. https://supermotors.net/getfile/870435/thumbnail/relayside.jpg Modern Copper (even from china) is superior. It's the old relay's DESIGN that causes those failures. The newer relay's design is superior. https://supermotors.net/getfile/829914/thumbnail/starterelaylate.jpgA standard Bosch relay can handle the PMGR solenoid with no problem, that is what most later Fords that were factory built with a PMGR starter use underhood for the starter.The '92-96 system (first Fs with PMGR) used the new ignition switch to directly-power the starter relay, which only triggered the PMGR solenoid, as that diagram I posted before shows. This shows more of the circuit: https://supermotors.net/getfile/285644/thumbnail/starterexploded.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 The big problem with the original starter is it's extremely high current draw...It's only ~50A (~25%) higher than PMGR, assuming both starters, the engines, & the cranking systems (including battery terminals) are working right. I'm still using the old-style starter on my Bronco, and it works fine.The original Ford relays on the fender were designed to handle the current draw without much problem, where the problem today lies is that most sources are now getting the relays made in China. The copper alloy the Chinese ones use is apparently very soft...Designed, but not very well; the originals were still susceptible to the same failure. https://supermotors.net/getfile/870435/thumbnail/relayside.jpg Modern Copper (even from china) is superior. It's the old relay's DESIGN that causes those failures. The newer relay's design is superior. https://supermotors.net/getfile/829914/thumbnail/starterelaylate.jpgA standard Bosch relay can handle the PMGR solenoid with no problem, that is what most later Fords that were factory built with a PMGR starter use underhood for the starter.The '92-96 system (first Fs with PMGR) used the new ignition switch to directly-power the starter relay, which only triggered the PMGR solenoid, as that diagram I posted before shows. This shows more of the circuit: https://supermotors.net/getfile/285644/thumbnail/starterexploded.jpg Gee, Steve, maybe on a six cylinder that might be correct, but on a hot 460 (first starter is right under the right exhaust manifold, and almost into the frame) I had a parts store measure my old movable pole piece starter at nearly 200 amps breakaway current, it dropped noticeably once the engine started turning. Note the starter solenoid, manifold for this side is a rear outlet and drops below the ports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Gee, Steve, maybe on a six cylinder that might be correct, but on a hot 460 (first starter is right under the right exhaust manifold, and almost into the frame) I had a parts store measure my old movable pole piece starter at nearly 200 amps breakaway current, it dropped noticeably once the engine started turning. Note the starter solenoid, manifold for this side is a rear outlet and drops below the ports. As for the starter relay, here is page 20-2 from my 1996 EVTM: Note it shows the starter relay. Here is the relay on my truck before Jim was kind enough to find me an actual 1995 battery cable set from an F450 with a 460 engine: Bill, I've always seen the same old relay. When did Ford start with that weird 'Y' shaped *red* cable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Bill, I've always seen the same old relay. When did Ford start with that weird 'Y' shaped *red* cable? Somewhere between 1992 and 1995. If you notice the battery sits opposite the older models, the positive cable used to be near the fender with the negative going first to the frame, then to the front of the engine block. The later system has the cables swapped moving the positive back and in and the negative goes back to the lower starter bolt which is now a double ended one with a nut. They also started running a negative pigtail to the inner fender area. Let me get a more recent picture of the starter relay/battery setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Somewhere between 1992 and 1995. If you notice the battery sits opposite the older models, the positive cable used to be near the fender with the negative going first to the frame, then to the front of the engine block. The later system has the cables swapped moving the positive back and in and the negative goes back to the lower starter bolt which is now a double ended one with a nut. They also started running a negative pigtail to the inner fender area. Let me get a more recent picture of the starter relay/battery setup. So about the same time that the PMGR starters came into play.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 So about the same time that the PMGR starters came into play.... Probably, because the rear cable is the "trigger" wire for the solenoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Probably, because the rear cable is the "trigger" wire for the solenoid. Right. So the relay (with the Y) was there to trigger the starter solenoid. IDK. I must be living under a rock (or in mom's basement) because I'm not familiar with it being any other way in the Ford trucks I've worked on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Right. So the relay (with the Y) was there to trigger the starter solenoid. IDK. I must be living under a rock (or in mom's basement) because I'm not familiar with it being any other way in the Ford trucks I've worked on. Pictures as requested. First, battery and cables looking toward the right fender: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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