The FORD Lounge

[ArdWrknTrk]

I read an article that said all these people dumping there cars for electric to be more environmentally friendly were actually hurting the environment, that the it was more efficient, and more environmentally friendly to buy an older vehicle and repair it due to the pollution from scrapping and new manufacturing and the supply system of new vehicles.

As with everything there are 50 shades of grey between that black and white.

I, for example, have held onto my truck for 32 years. It's a gross polluter and barely makes double digit fuel mileage.

Its cost of production and delivery were ameliorated years ago, and if I went out and bought a new $50k truck it would be a net positive for the planet.

But, then I'd be saddled with the banks vig every month, pay much more in taxes and insurance, and take less pleasure in fixing simple things.

Buying a lightly used car that's off lease and three years old with under 40k on the clock is a good thing, but I don't see myself doing that either...

But that's what I'm saying, there are a lot of articles and studies on this that say this is not true. Heck maintaining and re powering a vehicle with more efficient cleaner power plants may be a net positive. People are dumping their cars and running to Teslas to save the planet, you have all that pollution that has already been created, and then more to come in the logistics of the new Tesla. Then if you want to address the 1000# Gorilla in the room lol, how often do those batteries need to be replaced and how bad is that for the environment. Its pretty horrible, take a look around for the battery recycling plants (most will be in Mexico) its pretty bad. Then in the US you have to think that most of the electricity is generated by COAL, followed by natural gas, then nuclear.

So in essence you buy an electric car you trade burning one fossil fuel for another. Energy can not be created nor destroyed just transformed so you are literally netting nothing beneficial until you are charging up with green energy. Its just like the cooling fan on your engine, either your engine turns the fan directly, or your engine turns the same amount to charge a battery that in turn turns and electric fan. More EV's without investment in green energy production means more power plants polluting the environment = more pollution. You just don't see it, the popluace becomes numb to it much like the burger in the fridge and how it got that way. Out of sight out of mind.

Now ad your zero net to fossil fuel burning combined with your increase in pollution for new production, and battery recycling and electric cars and this is why studies show that mass adoption of electric vehicles will "increase overall emissions of sulfur dioxide, oxides of nitrogen, and particulates, compared with the same number of new internal combustion engines. The simple fact is that, because of stringent emissions standards and low-sulfur gasoline, new gasoline-powered cars and trucks today emit very little pollution, and they will emit even less in the future" (Lesser, Johnathan A: Short Circuit: The High Cost of Electric Vehicle Subsidies, Manhattan Institute).

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/short-circuit-high-cost-electric-vehicle-subsidies-11241.html

https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2018/05/15/are-electric-cars-worse-for-the-environment-000660

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-used-cars-are-more-ecofriendly/

https://www.dw.com/en/how-eco-friendly-are-electric-cars/a-19441437

https://fee.org/articles/electric-cars-aren-t-nearly-as-green-as-people-think//amp?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8aDwtr2A5gIVuSCtBh0ziA0MEAAYASAAEgJAKPD_BwE

I will say old carbed engines do make good candidates for hydrogen cells.

Hate to wake a sleeplng dog, but I saw this on Ars Technica this morning: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/12/study-that-argued-evs-arent-cleaner-gets-an-update/

And while Ars is a techcentric geek publication, science is not about bias or emotion, it is about observable fact.

Our ability gets better and more granular every day.

Reduction in use of dirty conflict metals, more efficient manufacture of batteries, more options to reuse those batteries for grid or offgrid storage after their time powering a vehicle, and better recycling processes all have led to more data points supporting the adoption of EV's.

[Rembrant]

Hate to wake a sleeplng dog, but I saw this on Ars Technica this morning: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/12/study-that-argued-evs-arent-cleaner-gets-an-update/

And while Ars is a techcentric geek publication, science is not about bias or emotion, it is about observable fact.

Our ability gets better and more granular every day.

Reduction in use of dirty conflict metals, more efficient manufacture of batteries, more options to reuse those batteries for grid or offgrid storage after their time powering a vehicle, and better recycling processes all have led to more data points supporting the adoption of EV's.

I guess this improvement helps prove the point that the initial subsidies and tax breaks will provide a good ROI in the long run.

I hear that the charging network is not keeping up with the car production though...something will need to be done about that soon.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-road-meant-hours-long-supercharger-lines-over-thanksgiving

[Ray Cecil]

Hate to wake a sleeplng dog, but I saw this on Ars Technica this morning: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/12/study-that-argued-evs-arent-cleaner-gets-an-update/

And while Ars is a techcentric geek publication, science is not about bias or emotion, it is about observable fact.

Our ability gets better and more granular every day.

Reduction in use of dirty conflict metals, more efficient manufacture of batteries, more options to reuse those batteries for grid or offgrid storage after their time powering a vehicle, and better recycling processes all have led to more data points supporting the adoption of EV's.

I guess this improvement helps prove the point that the initial subsidies and tax breaks will provide a good ROI in the long run.

I hear that the charging network is not keeping up with the car production though...something will need to be done about that soon.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-road-meant-hours-long-supercharger-lines-over-thanksgiving

I looked at the Tesla trucks website. If I had to buy an electric truck, Id go with the Rivian hands down. Im a huge Elon Musk fan, but no way id buy a truck that looks like something I sketched in elementary school.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Hate to wake a sleeplng dog, but I saw this on Ars Technica this morning: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/12/study-that-argued-evs-arent-cleaner-gets-an-update/

And while Ars is a techcentric geek publication, science is not about bias or emotion, it is about observable fact.

Our ability gets better and more granular every day.

Reduction in use of dirty conflict metals, more efficient manufacture of batteries, more options to reuse those batteries for grid or offgrid storage after their time powering a vehicle, and better recycling processes all have led to more data points supporting the adoption of EV's.

I guess this improvement helps prove the point that the initial subsidies and tax breaks will provide a good ROI in the long run.

I hear that the charging network is not keeping up with the car production though...something will need to be done about that soon.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-road-meant-hours-long-supercharger-lines-over-thanksgiving

I can definitely see an exceptional situation on an exceptional travel day.

Situation is going to be worse on Christmas, when more EV drivers are going to be running resistance heaters.

Utilizing battery thermal management to baseline climate control will help there.

I think a huge investment in electrical grid infrastructure is a necessity though!

With more and more local electric (like the fuel cell plants in municipalities and at factories, and grid tied 'personal' solar we may not have to run more transcontinental and trans regional HVTL.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I looked at the Tesla trucks website. If I had to buy an electric truck, Id go with the Rivian hands down. Im a huge Elon Musk fan, but no way id buy a truck that looks like something I sketched in elementary school.

I am in NO WAY a Tesla (or Musk) fanboi.

The fruck is publicity hype, just like SpaceX launching a first gen Roadster out past Mars.

Meanwhile, rustbelt cities could be doing what needs be done for UPS & USPS.

That would pay huge dividends going forward a generation.

This has got to be the beachhead market for light & medium duty trucks.

[Danny G]

Hate to wake a sleeplng dog, but I saw this on Ars Technica this morning: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/12/study-that-argued-evs-arent-cleaner-gets-an-update/

And while Ars is a techcentric geek publication, science is not about bias or emotion, it is about observable fact.

Our ability gets better and more granular every day.

Reduction in use of dirty conflict metals, more efficient manufacture of batteries, more options to reuse those batteries for grid or offgrid storage after their time powering a vehicle, and better recycling processes all have led to more data points supporting the adoption of EV's.

I guess this improvement helps prove the point that the initial subsidies and tax breaks will provide a good ROI in the long run.

I hear that the charging network is not keeping up with the car production though...something will need to be done about that soon.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-road-meant-hours-long-supercharger-lines-over-thanksgiving

not only that, they only allow a 80% charge and on the way you go. We need to get the grid up from 17% renewable energy up to 81% to eliminate fossil fuels.

[Danny G]

I looked at the Tesla trucks website. If I had to buy an electric truck, Id go with the Rivian hands down. Im a huge Elon Musk fan, but no way id buy a truck that looks like something I sketched in elementary school.

The front end of that Tesla is growing on me. But they keep comparing it to a Ford and exaggerating costs and its a real turn off, don't BS me.

Read an article that says the Cyber truck has a 5 year maintenance cost of $200 vs the F-150's they say costs $5724, and a repair cost of $1000 for the cyber truck vs $1043 for the F-150.

It's utter BS, the 5 year maintenance cost estimate for a model S is $2400 by Tesla, actual averages calculated by Market watch are $2800. Whats a dozen oil changes, air filter, a battery, and a trans flush going to cost? Not $5700.

Want a power wall add in $8000.

Then lets talk about batteries. The battery is rated for 4-6 years. So expect to replace one under normal conditions at the cost of $7000 per Tesla.

Cyber truck range of 350 miles is supposedly whacked in half if towing. SO now your down to 175 mile range on a FULL battery. BUT the charging stations are limited to 80% charge. So now that cuts you down to 140 miles before needing to "top off". According to Tesla it takes 40 minutes to charge their batteries to 80%, then there is the issue of the 25 minute wait time. So every 140miles be prepared to wait over an hour to get topped off. I pray to God you don't have to do this with children. If I were to head to Skiatook that means 8 stops for me, meaning adding cost, maybe an extra hotel, and entertaining children for 8 and a half hours while I "refuel"... Not practical. My 16 hour trip just became a 24 hour trip, that's a 53% increase in travel time. Compared to the 3 stops I would make in a newer F-150 hauling the same load and the 15 minutes I add to my trip filling up vs 8.5 hours.

If you get half battery life out while towing, you can probably expect that battery replacement to go from 4-6 years down to 2-3 years bumping your replacement costs up to possible $14k in 5 years.

Add to that the out of sight out of mind pollution costs and its just not worth it in my opinion. Only 17% of the grid is green energy powered per EIA.gov. That means per the first law of thermodynamics, 83% of the time EV's are charged from the grid, they still contribute to pollution.

I love the idea of an electric truck, and electric everything is coming along very well, its an exciting time, it's just not quite there yet. Batteries and charging/infrastructure need to be addressed sooner than later.

[Rembrant]

I am in NO WAY a Tesla (or Musk) fanboi.

The fruck is publicity hype, just like SpaceX launching a first gen Roadster out past Mars.

Meanwhile, rustbelt cities could be doing what needs be done for UPS & USPS.

That would pay huge dividends going forward a generation.

This has got to be the beachhead market for light & medium duty trucks.

I happened to come across this certification label while looking at an Ebay truck this morning, and the only reason it is even noteworthy is the build date. I know we were discussing the other day when the model year changeover was, and I knew it was in or near the summer, etc. As Bullnoses go, this would be a very late build...

[ArdWrknTrk]

Hate to wake a sleeplng dog, but I saw this on Ars Technica this morning: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/12/study-that-argued-evs-arent-cleaner-gets-an-update/

And while Ars is a techcentric geek publication, science is not about bias or emotion, it is about observable fact.

Our ability gets better and more granular every day.

Reduction in use of dirty conflict metals, more efficient manufacture of batteries, more options to reuse those batteries for grid or offgrid storage after their time powering a vehicle, and better recycling processes all have led to more data points supporting the adoption of EV's.

I guess this improvement helps prove the point that the initial subsidies and tax breaks will provide a good ROI in the long run.

I hear that the charging network is not keeping up with the car production though...something will need to be done about that soon.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-road-meant-hours-long-supercharger-lines-over-thanksgiving

not only that, they only allow a 80% charge and on the way you go. We need to get the grid up from 17% renewable energy up to 81% to eliminate fossil fuels.

80% is exactly what ratings are based on.

Along with the 15% minimum.

This is the same as most other Lithium battery chemistries.

Optimal life comes from not pushing complete discharge or filling to capacity.

I've spoken to Tesla owners who do a lot of driving (~200+k & 11 years) without having to change their packs.

Newer batteries are said to be even better.

[85lebaront2]

I happened to come across this certification label while looking at an Ebay truck this morning, and the only reason it is even noteworthy is the build date. I know we were discussing the other day when the model year changeover was, and I knew it was in or near the summer, etc. As Bullnoses go, this would be a very late build...

How about this one, I don't know if the consecutive unit numbers (last 5 of the VIN were individual plants or for all) This Darth's.