The FORD Lounge

[salans7]

Right now, the idea of a fuel cell hybrid is a viable idea, and needs no more infrastructure than a propane fill station.

You could fill up in seconds, or plug it in when you got a chance.

I hope to see more OTR trucks using this in the near future.

The advantage of 100% torque is almost overwhelming for semis.

If there's one thing that intrigues me about electric vehicles, it's the long term. I wasn't there, but we all know about the oil crisis in the 70s and how people were scrambling for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. Fifteen years later, we started to see soccer moms driving big gas guzzling Suburbans, and Excursions. The majority of the cars in the 90's were less than fuel efficient, and nobody seemed to care.

Anybody remember the EV programs from the 90s? Heck, even the Ford Ranger had an EV variant. But what happened to all of those EV cars? With exception to a few escapees, they were all crushed. Why did it take another ten years for EV vehicles to really lift off again in the US? Lobbyists. Corporate Oil. US Government.

This is gonna be a fun show to watch long term based off of society's previous history.

 

[Danny G]

I read an article that said all these people dumping there cars for electric to be more environmentally friendly were actually hurting the environment, that the it was more efficient, and more environmentally friendly to buy an older vehicle and repair it due to the pollution from scrapping and new manufacturing and the supply system of new vehicles.

As with everything there are 50 shades of grey between that black and white.

I, for example, have held onto my truck for 32 years. It's a gross polluter and barely makes double digit fuel mileage.

Its cost of production and delivery were ameliorated years ago, and if I went out and bought a new $50k truck it would be a net positive for the planet.

But, then I'd be saddled with the banks vig every month, pay much more in taxes and insurance, and take less pleasure in fixing simple things.

Buying a lightly used car that's off lease and three years old with under 40k on the clock is a good thing, but I don't see myself doing that either...

But that's what I'm saying, there are a lot of articles and studies on this that say this is not true. Heck maintaining and re powering a vehicle with more efficient cleaner power plants may be a net positive. People are dumping their cars and running to Teslas to save the planet, you have all that pollution that has already been created, and then more to come in the logistics of the new Tesla. Then if you want to address the 1000# Gorilla in the room lol, how often do those batteries need to be replaced and how bad is that for the environment. Its pretty horrible, take a look around for the battery recycling plants (most will be in Mexico) its pretty bad. Then in the US you have to think that most of the electricity is generated by COAL, followed by natural gas, then nuclear.

So in essence you buy an electric car you trade burning one fossil fuel for another. Energy can not be created nor destroyed just transformed so you are literally netting nothing beneficial until you are charging up with green energy. Its just like the cooling fan on your engine, either your engine turns the fan directly, or your engine turns the same amount to charge a battery that in turn turns and electric fan. More EV's without investment in green energy production means more power plants polluting the environment = more pollution. You just don't see it, the popluace becomes numb to it much like the burger in the fridge and how it got that way. Out of sight out of mind.

Now ad your zero net to fossil fuel burning combined with your increase in pollution for new production, and battery recycling and electric cars and this is why studies show that mass adoption of electric vehicles will "increase overall emissions of sulfur dioxide, oxides of nitrogen, and particulates, compared with the same number of new internal combustion engines. The simple fact is that, because of stringent emissions standards and low-sulfur gasoline, new gasoline-powered cars and trucks today emit very little pollution, and they will emit even less in the future" (Lesser, Johnathan A: Short Circuit: The High Cost of Electric Vehicle Subsidies, Manhattan Institute).

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/short-circuit-high-cost-electric-vehicle-subsidies-11241.html

https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2018/05/15/are-electric-cars-worse-for-the-environment-000660

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-used-cars-are-more-ecofriendly/

https://www.dw.com/en/how-eco-friendly-are-electric-cars/a-19441437

https://fee.org/articles/electric-cars-aren-t-nearly-as-green-as-people-think//amp?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8aDwtr2A5gIVuSCtBh0ziA0MEAAYASAAEgJAKPD_BwE

I will say old carbed engines do make good candidates for hydrogen cells.

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of electric vehicles. But currently the infrastructure doesn't support the kind of driving I do. That list is supposedly the latest from Tesla and I can't get out of Oklahoma to the southeast. And similarly, a few years ago we took the back roads out of Oklahoma to the west, and we couldn't have done that even today with a Tesla. That's a show-stopper for me.

I had this exact conversation with a friend yesterday, who called to ask what vehicle he should buy in six months or so. We discussed the driving he does, which originates in SE Oklahoma or NE Texas, and came to the realization that an all-electric vehicle currently won't cut it.

Having said that, the time may be coming when electric vehicles can do it given the work being done on new battery tech. On the other hand, the fuel cell may beat them out. Much has to be done to make either happen, but the fuel cell might be the easier one for which to build out the infrastructure. Last I knew there was no standardization of charging systems for electric vehicles, but that should be an easy thing to do for fuel cells.

Gary, look at the strech of Texas from Houston to Dallas.

Plenty of Superchargers.

Tesla has location data on all their cars.

They're going to build out where the demand is, first.

Just because it doesn't fit your use case (today) doesn't mean it won't.

How many miles did you drive between fillups on that trip?

Hydrogen fuel cells in cars is a non-starter.

But LNG filling stations are everywhere.

I don't see any issue doing this TODAY.

[Danny G]

I read an article that said all these people dumping there cars for electric to be more environmentally friendly were actually hurting the environment, that the it was more efficient, and more environmentally friendly to buy an older vehicle and repair it due to the pollution from scrapping and new manufacturing and the supply system of new vehicles.

As with everything there are 50 shades of grey between that black and white.

I, for example, have held onto my truck for 32 years. It's a gross polluter and barely makes double digit fuel mileage.

Its cost of production and delivery were ameliorated years ago, and if I went out and bought a new $50k truck it would be a net positive for the planet.

But, then I'd be saddled with the banks vig every month, pay much more in taxes and insurance, and take less pleasure in fixing simple things.

Buying a lightly used car that's off lease and three years old with under 40k on the clock is a good thing, but I don't see myself doing that either...

But that's what I'm saying, there are a lot of articles and studies on this that say this is not true. Heck maintaining and re powering a vehicle with more efficient cleaner power plants may be a net positive. People are dumping their cars and running to Teslas to save the planet, you have all that pollution that has already been created, and then more to come in the logistics of the new Tesla. Then if you want to address the 1000# Gorilla in the room lol, how often do those batteries need to be replaced and how bad is that for the environment. Its pretty horrible, take a look around for the battery recycling plants (most will be in Mexico) its pretty bad. Then in the US you have to think that most of the electricity is generated by COAL, followed by natural gas, then nuclear.

So in essence you buy an electric car you trade burning one fossil fuel for another. Energy can not be created nor destroyed just transformed so you are literally netting nothing beneficial until you are charging up with green energy. Its just like the cooling fan on your engine, either your engine turns the fan directly, or your engine turns the same amount to charge a battery that in turn turns and electric fan. More EV's without investment in green energy production means more power plants polluting the environment = more pollution. You just don't see it, the popluace becomes numb to it much like the burger in the fridge and how it got that way. Out of sight out of mind.

Now ad your zero net to fossil fuel burning combined with your increase in pollution for new production, and battery recycling and electric cars and this is why studies show that mass adoption of electric vehicles will "increase overall emissions of sulfur dioxide, oxides of nitrogen, and particulates, compared with the same number of new internal combustion engines. The simple fact is that, because of stringent emissions standards and low-sulfur gasoline, new gasoline-powered cars and trucks today emit very little pollution, and they will emit even less in the future" (Lesser, Johnathan A: Short Circuit: The High Cost of Electric Vehicle Subsidies, Manhattan Institute).

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/short-circuit-high-cost-electric-vehicle-subsidies-11241.html

https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2018/05/15/are-electric-cars-worse-for-the-environment-000660

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-used-cars-are-more-ecofriendly/

https://www.dw.com/en/how-eco-friendly-are-electric-cars/a-19441437

https://fee.org/articles/electric-cars-aren-t-nearly-as-green-as-people-think//amp?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8aDwtr2A5gIVuSCtBh0ziA0MEAAYASAAEgJAKPD_BwE

I will say old carbed engines do make good candidates for hydrogen cells.

Also don't forget the damage done to the environment and the pollution created strip mining lithium for batteries.

Hydrogen cells make more sense. Not much infrastructure to produce, all the parts can be made by recycling older vehicles. And every step of the process can in turn be powered by hydrogen with a by product being pretty much water. Hydrogen can power engines, turn turbines to create electricity etc.

[Danny G]

Hydrogen fuel cells in cars is a non-starter.

I don't agree here. Hyundai has a semi that runs on hydrogen cells, hydrogen trains are going to built in Europe. If it can be done for semis and trains it can be done for cars. "Recent breakthroughs in chemistry and physics have made the creation of hydrogen with electrolysis very economical and greenhouse gas free."

https://tech.hyundaimotorgroup.com/press-release/hyundais-hydrogen-mobility-solution-wins-2020-truck-innovation-award/

http://oceangeothermal.org/archive-old/hydrogen/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkbin0cGA5gIVLCCtBh2PMgqHEAAYAiAAEgKUafD_BwE

I think were looking a massive combination of H2 and green electricity as the future state. Coal plants etc have to go by the wayside for ocean-turbine, geothermal-turbine, solar, and hydro-electric turbine generated electricity. Combine that with the portability of H2 and its a bright future if we can get there.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I read an article that said all these people dumping there cars for electric to be more environmentally friendly were actually hurting the environment, that the it was more efficient, and more environmentally friendly to buy an older vehicle and repair it due to the pollution from scrapping and new manufacturing and the supply system of new vehicles.

As with everything there are 50 shades of grey between that black and white.

I, for example, have held onto my truck for 32 years. It's a gross polluter and barely makes double digit fuel mileage.

Its cost of production and delivery were ameliorated years ago, and if I went out and bought a new $50k truck it would be a net positive for the planet.

But, then I'd be saddled with the banks vig every month, pay much more in taxes and insurance, and take less pleasure in fixing simple things.

Buying a lightly used car that's off lease and three years old with under 40k on the clock is a good thing, but I don't see myself doing that either...

But that's what I'm saying, there are a lot of articles and studies on this that say this is not true. Heck maintaining and re powering a vehicle with more efficient cleaner power plants may be a net positive. People are dumping their cars and running to Teslas to save the planet, you have all that pollution that has already been created, and then more to come in the logistics of the new Tesla. Then if you want to address the 1000# Gorilla in the room lol, how often do those batteries need to be replaced and how bad is that for the environment. Its pretty horrible, take a look around for the battery recycling plants (most will be in Mexico) its pretty bad. Then in the US you have to think that most of the electricity is generated by COAL, followed by natural gas, then nuclear.

So in essence you buy an electric car you trade burning one fossil fuel for another. Energy can not be created nor destroyed just transformed so you are literally netting nothing beneficial until you are charging up with green energy. Its just like the cooling fan on your engine, either your engine turns the fan directly, or your engine turns the same amount to charge a battery that in turn turns and electric fan. More EV's without investment in green energy production means more power plants polluting the environment = more pollution. You just don't see it, the popluace becomes numb to it much like the burger in the fridge and how it got that way. Out of sight out of mind.

Now ad your zero net to fossil fuel burning combined with your increase in pollution for new production, and battery recycling and electric cars and this is why studies show that mass adoption of electric vehicles will "increase overall emissions of sulfur dioxide, oxides of nitrogen, and particulates, compared with the same number of new internal combustion engines. The simple fact is that, because of stringent emissions standards and low-sulfur gasoline, new gasoline-powered cars and trucks today emit very little pollution, and they will emit even less in the future" (Lesser, Johnathan A: Short Circuit: The High Cost of Electric Vehicle Subsidies, Manhattan Institute).

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/short-circuit-high-cost-electric-vehicle-subsidies-11241.html

https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2018/05/15/are-electric-cars-worse-for-the-environment-000660

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-used-cars-are-more-ecofriendly/

https://www.dw.com/en/how-eco-friendly-are-electric-cars/a-19441437

https://fee.org/articles/electric-cars-aren-t-nearly-as-green-as-people-think//amp?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8aDwtr2A5gIVuSCtBh0ziA0MEAAYASAAEgJAKPD_BwE

I will say old carbed engines do make good candidates for hydrogen cells.

John Lesser is an oil industry shill writing for a lobbying group.

You're telling me to take his "stuff" at face value???

The gorilla is how distributed grid fuel cells will lessen powerline losses (ever stuck a florescent tube in the ground below high tension lines?) and make carbon capture viable.

NOBODY is making new dirty coal plants.

Investment in renewables is huge and driving production costs to negative numbers almost every day.

Damn right oil and coal don't like this!

Simple fact: Fossil fuels can never be net zero.

There's absolutely no way to make up for (quite literally) billions of years of solar.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, look at the strech of Texas from Houston to Dallas.

Plenty of Superchargers.

Tesla has location data on all their cars.

They're going to build out where the demand is, first.

Just because it doesn't fit your use case (today) doesn't mean it won't.

How many miles did you drive between fillups on that trip?

Hydrogen fuel cells in cars is a non-starter.

But LNG filling stations are everywhere.

I don't see any issue doing this TODAY.

Jim - I'm not saying electric vehicles are not good for some people. They just do not fit in the kind of driving we do. Our trips frequently aren't planned, and certainly aren't planned around where we can get an electric vehicle charged. Plus, we like to take the road less traveled.

And speaking of that, we took off west out of Katy TX when it was time to come home because we weren't about to go back into Houston to go north on the interstate. That took us up into the Hill Country of Texas where Tesla charging stations are few and far between. In fact, looking at the list I didn't find any where we went.

As for how far we drove between fillups, the little GLK is getting ~35 MPG and we routinely put in 500 miles per tank.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Hydrogen fuel cells in cars is a non-starter.

I don't agree here. Hyundai has a semi that runs on hydrogen cells, hydrogen trains are going to built in Europe. If it can be done for semis and trains it can be done for cars. "Recent breakthroughs in chemistry and physics have made the creation of hydrogen with electrolysis very economical and greenhouse gas free."

https://tech.hyundaimotorgroup.com/press-release/hyundais-hydrogen-mobility-solution-wins-2020-truck-innovation-award/

http://oceangeothermal.org/archive-old/hydrogen/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkbin0cGA5gIVLCCtBh2PMgqHEAAYAiAAEgKUafD_BwE

I think were looking a massive combination of H2 and green electricity as the future state. Coal plants etc have to go by the wayside for ocean-turbine, geothermal-turbine, solar, and hydro-electric turbine generated electricity. Combine that with the portability of H2 and its a bright future if we can get there.

Hydrogen comes from two places.

Electrolysis of water. (Strong bonds mean a net loss of energy to heat and other processes)

Steam reforming methane. Again multiple steps -each costing energy- and the release of the carbon associated with the methane molecule.

Hydrogen is a tiny atom and hard as hell to store due to difussion and embrittlement.

Plus, it has energy density.

Can't be stored as a liquid without energy intensive super cooling, etc... etc...

Meanwhile, almost every one of us has a propane tank in their yard or under their grill.

THAT makes for easy fueling of a methane fuel cell.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - I'm not saying electric vehicles are not good for some people. They just do not fit in the kind of driving we do. Our trips frequently aren't planned, and certainly aren't planned around where we can get an electric vehicle charged. Plus, we like to take the road less traveled.

And speaking of that, we took off west out of Katy TX when it was time to come home because we weren't about to go back into Houston to go north on the interstate. That took us up into the Hill Country of Texas where Tesla charging stations are few and far between. In fact, looking at the list I didn't find any where we went.

As for how far we drove between fillups, the little GLK is getting ~35 MPG and we routinely put in 500 miles per tank.

Which is why I said it doesn't fit your use case today

.If a comfortable EV at a comparable price to Janey's Merc had 500 mile range would you consider it?

What if you only made 1 or 2 planned trips a year?

Would you consider renting an ice for those occasions?

[ArdWrknTrk]

"Recent breakthroughs in chemistry and physics have made the creation of hydrogen with electrolysis very economical and greenhouse gas free."

Absolute BS.

When the laws of thermodynamics are broken, you let me know.

We'll all be flying around like the Jetsons, and nobody will need hydrogen as a combustible fuel.