Big Blue's Transformation

[Nothing Special]

Yes, to implement the Low Voltage approach I appear to need a Rosetta Stone. Something that translates BE to Ford-speak. I've done some of that myself, but it gets to be extremely complex. Sometimes reading Decipha's instructions help as he uses more Ford terms than BE does.

Trust me, I'm not taking shots at Clint as I'm in awe of what he's done to create BE - assuming that he did most of it. BE is amazing! And Ford's terminology of "LOWVOL_SL" leaves a lot to be desired. But calling that parameter "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Bad" with nothing else said in the Comment field doesn't quite get it either. If he'd at least put "This is Ford's LOWVOL_SL and it is used to trigger the Low Voltage Idle Adder function" in the comments then I could eventually work my way through it.

Anyway, I think what I'm looking for is what you think the best approach is. I don't need to make a decision today, but wanted to get the discussion going. Which approach is best, and is the difference enough to warrant implementing it?

I don't know that I can help here much. The "computer" and "programming" controlling the idle speed on my Bronco is far more complex than anything made by man! Although it didn't come with very detailed documentation either

Seriously, I don't notice any significant change in idle speed when my 12V compressor kicks on, and don't have AC. I use the hand throttle to set the idle speed higher during warm-up, and then on the trail so I don't have to try to hold my foot steady as I'm bouncing over rocks. It also lets me keep one foot on the brake and the other on the clutch when starting when I don't want to roll back.

So a very different system trying to accomplish a very different goal. I admire your tenacity and determination to make Big Blue as good as possible, and something that your kids will be able to have maintained. But you are in a different game than I am, so I don't know what to offer. (I was mentioning your goals to my son last weekend and apologizing that he isn't getting the same consideration in my project vehicles!)

[ArdWrknTrk]

Yes, to implement the Low Voltage approach I appear to need a Rosetta Stone. Something that translates BE to Ford-speak. I've done some of that myself, but it gets to be extremely complex. Sometimes reading Decipha's instructions help as he uses more Ford terms than BE does.

Trust me, I'm not taking shots at Clint as I'm in awe of what he's done to create BE - assuming that he did most of it. BE is amazing! And Ford's terminology of "LOWVOL_SL" leaves a lot to be desired. But calling that parameter "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Bad" with nothing else said in the Comment field doesn't quite get it either. If he'd at least put "This is Ford's LOWVOL_SL and it is used to trigger the Low Voltage Idle Adder function" in the comments then I could eventually work my way through it.

Anyway, I think what I'm looking for is what you think the best approach is. I don't need to make a decision today, but wanted to get the discussion going. Which approach is best, and is the difference enough to warrant implementing it?

. I certainly didn't mean any criticism of binary editor or Clint by extension.

I just don't know what to say wrt making your PCM do what you think you want.

And while I understand your concern over what you're seeing I don't know if it is a real world issue or not.

It's already amazing all the auxiliary systems you've managed to integrate and the economy you have achieved.

I'd think getting the PTO function to come on when the winch is operating would certainly be helpful.

A more robust (higher output) alternator will help offset that load.... IF it is spinning fast enough to keep cool.

But I don't know what that is, and we don't yet have enough information to even guess

[Gary Lewis]

. I certainly didn't mean any criticism of binary editor or Clint by extension.

I just don't know what to say wrt making your PCM do what you think you want.

And while I understand your concern over what you're seeing I don't know if it is a real world issue or not.

It's already amazing all the auxiliary systems you've managed to integrate and the economy you have achieved.

I'd think getting the PTO function to come on when the winch is operating would certainly be helpful.

A more robust (higher output) alternator will help offset that load.... IF it is spinning fast enough to keep cool.

But I don't know what that is, and we don't yet have enough information to even guess

Bob - Good point. I thought this system was complicated.

But if I use the A/C clutch input, which is there but not being used as I have the RPM adder set to 0, then I could effectively have the "fast idle" you mentioned. And the ECU does a marvelous job of keeping the RPM steady, so I could use it to ease up rocky or bumpy trails, going slowly but not as slow as my idle speed of 640 would give.

As for consideration, we are in a very different time of life from each other. There are surely a LOT of people asking "Why is that OLD man building that since he won't get to use it very long? But I hope to use it for many years and then hand it off to my son for him to use.

Jim - I don't think you were casting dispersions on either BE or Clint. I was the one saying those things, but wanted everyone to know that I'm very impressed with what the software can do. But it would be nice to have a bit more documentation with it.

On the alternator, tomorrow I hope to determine how much the existing alternator throws at various RPM, which will at least let me see if there's a good RPM to set for a fast idle. Then, if the Power Bastards folks will provide some info on their alternators maybe I see if a stronger one will help at low RPM. However, their advert says 110+ amps at idle and 220 @ 1200 RPM. But I don't know what they consider "idle", so need to see their specs.

[85lebaront2]

Yes, to implement the Low Voltage approach I appear to need a Rosetta Stone. Something that translates BE to Ford-speak. I've done some of that myself, but it gets to be extremely complex. Sometimes reading Decipha's instructions help as he uses more Ford terms than BE does.

Trust me, I'm not taking shots at Clint as I'm in awe of what he's done to create BE - assuming that he did most of it. BE is amazing! And Ford's terminology of "LOWVOL_SL" leaves a lot to be desired. But calling that parameter "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Bad" with nothing else said in the Comment field doesn't quite get it either. If he'd at least put "This is Ford's LOWVOL_SL and it is used to trigger the Low Voltage Idle Adder function" in the comments then I could eventually work my way through it.

Anyway, I think what I'm looking for is what you think the best approach is. I don't need to make a decision today, but wanted to get the discussion going. Which approach is best, and is the difference enough to warrant implementing it?

Gary, the low voltage might be to enable some other, or disable to keep things running. Low voltage will effect injector timing as the opening could be slower, or not full, fuel pressure, if the pumps aren't delivering the needed pressure, spark as the coil primary may not reach full saturation.

You might ask or see if you can determine what that condition triggers in the EEC.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, the low voltage might be to enable some other, or disable to keep things running. Low voltage will effect injector timing as the opening could be slower, or not full, fuel pressure, if the pumps aren't delivering the needed pressure, spark as the coil primary may not reach full saturation.

You might ask or see if you can determine what that condition triggers in the EEC.

Bill - I'm pretty confident that those two parameters are the right ones as Clint confirmed that. Here are bits and pieces of exchanges we had:

• Gary: I'm trying to use the Low Voltage Idle Air Adder table to raise the idle RPM when VBAT gets below 12.0V and bring the idle back down when it gets above 13.0V.

• Clint: "as for the idle adder for heavy electrical loads. I would be using the AC input. anytime this input goes high it can add idle rpm.

• Gary: I was hoping to use the Low Voltage Idle AIr Adder table as I can ramp it up gently instead of it being a binary thing, like Idle increase for A/C is.

• Clint: Yes the AC would be more of a binary type fix. The function you are talking about for low voltage Idle Air Add should work too.

• Gary: On the low voltage adder, is it triggered by Charging System Lowest Voltage To Indicate Bad and Charging System Lowest Voltage To Indicate Good? Are those the thresholds?

• Clint: As for the charging system, Yes the "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Bad" and "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Good" are the two thresholds.

As for the battery voltage and injector timing, there's a table for that:

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - I'm pretty confident that those two parameters are the right ones as Clint confirmed that. Here are bits and pieces of exchanges we had:

• Gary: I'm trying to use the Low Voltage Idle Air Adder table to raise the idle RPM when VBAT gets below 12.0V and bring the idle back down when it gets above 13.0V.

• Clint: "as for the idle adder for heavy electrical loads. I would be using the AC input. anytime this input goes high it can add idle rpm.

• Gary: I was hoping to use the Low Voltage Idle AIr Adder table as I can ramp it up gently instead of it being a binary thing, like Idle increase for A/C is.

• Clint: Yes the AC would be more of a binary type fix. The function you are talking about for low voltage Idle Air Add should work too.

• Gary: On the low voltage adder, is it triggered by Charging System Lowest Voltage To Indicate Bad and Charging System Lowest Voltage To Indicate Good? Are those the thresholds?

• Clint: As for the charging system, Yes the "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Bad" and "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Good" are the two thresholds.

As for the battery voltage and injector timing, there's a table for that:

Yesterday my nephew, the mechanical engineer turned auto mechanic, put his test equipment on Big Blue and we learned that measuring the alternator's output isn't easy as several things are going on at the same time that vary the output. For instance, when the voltage gets down to 12.7 the Cole Hersee battery isolator opens up and now the alternator is only charging the starting battery while the air compressor is pulling from the aux battery. So the voltage the alternator is seeing goes up and the current comes down. And when you push the "parallel" switch in Mission Control it only forces parallel for 1 minute. But about then the air compressor kicks off as it has reached 200 psi, so the load goes away. Meanwhile the varying load on the engine due to alternator output changes the RPM you are trying to hold with the throttle, which varies the alternator's output, which varies the RPM, which...

But we finally got some glimpses of what the current looks like, and at a 750 RPM idle it looks like the alternator is kicking out ~60A. And it maxes out by 1500 RPM at 117A. So while the idle output is as much as the original 1G gave at full tilt, it isn't going to keep up with either the winch or the air compressor - neither of which we measured.

We then talked through the various options to provide more current by raising the idle RPM:

• PTO: He was surprised that the PTO function doesn't raise the RPM. He has a Chevy Kodiak and it has a PTO switch which both shuts off the emissions monitoring and kicks the idle up to 1200 RPM to provide more alternator current. But unless I'm missing a parameter in BE this one doesn't do that, so he agrees it is out.

• Low Voltage Idle Adder: He liked this one somewhat, but since I'm not getting it working easily said I should move on...

• Idle increase for A/C: He really liked this one since it would be easy to implement, unlike the Low Voltage Idle Adder, and could be wired to kick in when either the winch or the air compressor is running. In fact, if either the air compressor has kicked off at 200 psi or I've turned it off manually, the switch on the dash would effectively be Fast Idle.

We also talked about mechanical vs electrical fans. He's played with both approaches extensively on everything from side-by-sides to medium-duty trucks and has come to the conclusion that mechanical fans work better. As he pointed out, the 4500 Kodiak with a 6.6L Duramax they drove down yesterday has a mechanical fan. In fact, he said all of the Kodiaks have mechanical fans, although some of them like his have an electric clutch in the fan to override the thermal clutch and go to full lockup. So GM must have come to the same conclusion that mechanical beats electrical.

That's all for now, more for later.

[Gary Lewis]

Yesterday my nephew, the mechanical engineer turned auto mechanic, put his test equipment on Big Blue and we learned that measuring the alternator's output isn't easy as several things are going on at the same time that vary the output. For instance, when the voltage gets down to 12.7 the Cole Hersee battery isolator opens up and now the alternator is only charging the starting battery while the air compressor is pulling from the aux battery. So the voltage the alternator is seeing goes up and the current comes down. And when you push the "parallel" switch in Mission Control it only forces parallel for 1 minute. But about then the air compressor kicks off as it has reached 200 psi, so the load goes away. Meanwhile the varying load on the engine due to alternator output changes the RPM you are trying to hold with the throttle, which varies the alternator's output, which varies the RPM, which...

But we finally got some glimpses of what the current looks like, and at a 750 RPM idle it looks like the alternator is kicking out ~60A. And it maxes out by 1500 RPM at 117A. So while the idle output is as much as the original 1G gave at full tilt, it isn't going to keep up with either the winch or the air compressor - neither of which we measured.

We then talked through the various options to provide more current by raising the idle RPM:

• PTO: He was surprised that the PTO function doesn't raise the RPM. He has a Chevy Kodiak and it has a PTO switch which both shuts off the emissions monitoring and kicks the idle up to 1200 RPM to provide more alternator current. But unless I'm missing a parameter in BE this one doesn't do that, so he agrees it is out.

• Low Voltage Idle Adder: He liked this one somewhat, but since I'm not getting it working easily said I should move on...

• Idle increase for A/C: He really liked this one since it would be easy to implement, unlike the Low Voltage Idle Adder, and could be wired to kick in when either the winch or the air compressor is running. In fact, if either the air compressor has kicked off at 200 psi or I've turned it off manually, the switch on the dash would effectively be Fast Idle.

We also talked about mechanical vs electrical fans. He's played with both approaches extensively on everything from side-by-sides to medium-duty trucks and has come to the conclusion that mechanical fans work better. As he pointed out, the 4500 Kodiak with a 6.6L Duramax they drove down yesterday has a mechanical fan. In fact, he said all of the Kodiaks have mechanical fans, although some of them like his have an electric clutch in the fan to override the thermal clutch and go to full lockup. So GM must have come to the same conclusion that mechanical beats electrical.

That's all for now, more for later.

I just posted info on my mockup for a bonnet over the alternator in this post on the Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical thread. But while I was under the hood I discovered something.

Looks like I need to make a new jumper and turn the connector upside down. Sure glad I turned the battery around and put the ground near the fender.

[Gary Lewis]

I just posted info on my mockup for a bonnet over the alternator in this post on the Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical thread. But while I was under the hood I discovered something.

Looks like I need to make a new jumper and turn the connector upside down. Sure glad I turned the battery around and put the ground near the fender.

And, on top of the ground problem there's another one lurking. My nephew and I inadvertently found it on Saturday.

He has a neat oscilloscope system from Pico. It is an electronic box about the size of a small paperback book and it has several connections on it. Most are for power and sensors, and one is for USB to a laptop. He hooked up to Big Blue and since we wanted to correlate the alternator's output with RPM he put the spark pickup on the coil/dizzy wire.

Later when we were reviewing the logs he spotted something and pointed it out, whereupon I did some counting and pointed something else out. What do y'all see?

Bill - I tagged you to make sure you see this, as I think we'll have a conversation.

[85lebaront2]

And, on top of the ground problem there's another one lurking. My nephew and I inadvertently found it on Saturday.

He has a neat oscilloscope system from Pico. It is an electronic box about the size of a small paperback book and it has several connections on it. Most are for power and sensors, and one is for USB to a laptop. He hooked up to Big Blue and since we wanted to correlate the alternator's output with RPM he put the spark pickup on the coil/dizzy wire.

Later when we were reviewing the logs he spotted something and pointed it out, whereupon I did some counting and pointed something else out. What do y'all see?

Bill - I tagged you to make sure you see this, as I think we'll have a conversation.

If they are in firing order, which they should be, you have some extremely lean cylinders or some questionable spark plugs. The sequence didn't repeat exactly as the 4th trace (the one with the diamond) should have also shown up as the 12th trace, but we didn't get there on that screen grab. The second cyl in sequence (should be #5) shows up as a high spike on the second cycle.

At Preston, I would have showed it to my customer and recommended new plugs, or if they were new, checking the gap. I think it is time to read the plugs sir.

[Gary Lewis]

If they are in firing order, which they should be, you have some extremely lean cylinders or some questionable spark plugs. The sequence didn't repeat exactly as the 4th trace (the one with the diamond) should have also shown up as the 12th trace, but we didn't get there on that screen grab. The second cyl in sequence (should be #5) shows up as a high spike on the second cycle.

At Preston, I would have showed it to my customer and recommended new plugs, or if they were new, checking the gap. I think it is time to read the plugs sir.

They are in firing order, but who knows which cylinder is showing first on the screen as he didn't put a pickup on #1, just the coil wire.

This was just the one screengrab he sent me, but others that we looked at were a bit different in that the one cylinder was wonky and the other seven cylinders were all alike. And since the ECU was playing with the AFR during all of this he suggested I not worry about the cylinders that appear to be lean. Instead go figure out what is wrong with that one cylinder. And obviously it is the plug, the wire, or the cap.

But the plug seems the most likely given the conversation starting back here when I told y'all that I'd put Autolite 24's in. For instance, Jim said "You've been warned about Autolites!" (In my defense they are what Scotty recommended.)

It makes sense to start by pulling the plugs, but I don't want to put them back as I want to put new plugs in. So let's (all) go back over the "which plug" bit. This engine is basically a stock '96 460 but with a bit more compression and cam. Plus headers. And it is running a stock ignition system. So is that enough to suggest a non-stock plug?

Rock Auto says that these are stock copper plugs for that engine: Autolite 25; Champion 18 or 4018; NGK 6630 (UR4); & probably Motorcraft ASF42 since the ASF42P is the stock platinum plug. Any favorites there? Any reason to go to a platinum plug? (I know you've had trouble with them, Bill, but in what application?)