Big Blue's Transformation

[Gary Lewis]

Good point. So I'm going to drive it a bit with the tune that's in it and will cycle the air compressor a few times to see what happens.

In fact, we are planning some kind of trip on Tuesday to take the truck out, so maybe miles and starts will help it regain its memory.

But I'm still quite confused as to why it only added 144 RPM to the base of 640. At 1 second we were supposed to get +96 RPM and at 2 seconds +200 RPM. But we only got +144 RPM and it stayed there. That's the amount of increase we should have gotten at 1.46 seconds.

So I'm seeing two problems with this. First, that the desired idle RPM didn't continue to increase until the battery voltage got above the "good" threshold of 12.5V. Second, that once the battery voltage did exceed the good threshold that the desired RPM didn't come back to the base of 640 RPM.

As said, there's something I really don't understand about that table.

Noodled on this all night and now I'm wondering if hysteresis is the problem. The "bad" voltage is set to 12.0 and the "good" is set to 12.5. So what if that's too close together? I'm thinking this way 'cause there's something odd about the way the desired RPM stopped climbing at +144.

I've found two parameters that cause me to think this might be the issue. Here they are, quoting what BE says about them and including their setpoints:

• Crossover voltage threshold above which fixed constant switchpoint is used: .30V

• Crossover voltage threshold below which the adaptive switchpoint is used: .25V

Taking the two together the band is .55V. But with "good" at 12.5 and "bad" at 12.0 there's only .50V between. I don't know that these two parameters have anything to do with the issue I'm having, but it seems reasonable to set "good" to 13.0 and run another test.

Thoughts? Help? Ideas?

[Gary Lewis]

Noodled on this all night and now I'm wondering if hysteresis is the problem. The "bad" voltage is set to 12.0 and the "good" is set to 12.5. So what if that's too close together? I'm thinking this way 'cause there's something odd about the way the desired RPM stopped climbing at +144.

I've found two parameters that cause me to think this might be the issue. Here they are, quoting what BE says about them and including their setpoints:

• Crossover voltage threshold above which fixed constant switchpoint is used: .30V

• Crossover voltage threshold below which the adaptive switchpoint is used: .25V

Taking the two together the band is .55V. But with "good" at 12.5 and "bad" at 12.0 there's only .50V between. I don't know that these two parameters have anything to do with the issue I'm having, but it seems reasonable to set "good" to 13.0 and run another test.

Thoughts? Help? Ideas?

I changed the "good" battery voltage to 13.0 and ran another test. At 1 second after turning the compressor on the desired idle RPM went from 640 to 736, which is the +96 I called for in the table. But then 1 second later it went to 784, or only +144 when I called for +200. And it stayed at 784 until I turned the truck off and restarted it.

I'm really confused by this, but I'm going to drive the truck some tomorrow to see if things might change. I doubt it, but I'll try.

Otherwise, I'm about to give up on this approach.

[1986F150Six]

I changed the "good" battery voltage to 13.0 and ran another test. At 1 second after turning the compressor on the desired idle RPM went from 640 to 736, which is the +96 I called for in the table. But then 1 second later it went to 784, or only +144 when I called for +200. And it stayed at 784 until I turned the truck off and restarted it.

I'm really confused by this, but I'm going to drive the truck some tomorrow to see if things might change. I doubt it, but I'll try.

Otherwise, I'm about to give up on this approach.

I am impressed with what you have accomplished...

[Gary Lewis]

I am impressed with what you have accomplished...

Thanks, David. But I'm confident that someone has been here before as I see his footprints. However, he didn't leave any notes .

Today's testing with the "bad" threshold set to 12.0 and the "good" at 13.0 had the same results as previous tests. IOW, it appears that having the limits only .5v apart (12.0/12.5) wasn't the issue.

In the chart below you can see where I switched the compressor on at about 320 seconds and the voltage went south, quickly. Notice that the idle speed control's duty cycle goes up in a stairstep trying to get the idle speed back to 640, which was the desired idle RPM at that point. And you can see that the actual idle speed dropped when the load of the alternator came on, so the regulator is working. (Try that with your carburetor.)

The desired idle speed goes up to 736 at 334 seconds in, and then one second later to 784 where it stays for the rest of the test - even after the air compressor is turned off and the voltage comes back to 13.6. Even blipping the throttle like I did at the end of the test didn't get the desired RPM to come back down. I had to turn the engine off and back on to get the desired RPM to go back to 640.

Also, wondering if I have a bad connection somewhere I did some voltage-drop testing and proved everything is well. From the starting battery to the aux battery there was a .38V drop. And from the aux battery's positive terminal to the positive terminal of the cable running to the inverter there was a .17V drop. And my DVM was showing the same thing as the ECU was seeing. And all of this was when the air compressor was running.

So I'm at a loss as to why I can't get the desired RPM to up past 784 when I'm asking it to go to 1136 after 255 seconds. Nor why it won't come back down when the voltage comes up. But I'm going to quit chasing this rainbow and worry about other things for a bit.

[Gary Lewis]

Thanks, David. But I'm confident that someone has been here before as I see his footprints. However, he didn't leave any notes .

Today's testing with the "bad" threshold set to 12.0 and the "good" at 13.0 had the same results as previous tests. IOW, it appears that having the limits only .5v apart (12.0/12.5) wasn't the issue.

In the chart below you can see where I switched the compressor on at about 320 seconds and the voltage went south, quickly. Notice that the idle speed control's duty cycle goes up in a stairstep trying to get the idle speed back to 640, which was the desired idle RPM at that point. And you can see that the actual idle speed dropped when the load of the alternator came on, so the regulator is working. (Try that with your carburetor.)

The desired idle speed goes up to 736 at 334 seconds in, and then one second later to 784 where it stays for the rest of the test - even after the air compressor is turned off and the voltage comes back to 13.6. Even blipping the throttle like I did at the end of the test didn't get the desired RPM to come back down. I had to turn the engine off and back on to get the desired RPM to go back to 640.

Also, wondering if I have a bad connection somewhere I did some voltage-drop testing and proved everything is well. From the starting battery to the aux battery there was a .38V drop. And from the aux battery's positive terminal to the positive terminal of the cable running to the inverter there was a .17V drop. And my DVM was showing the same thing as the ECU was seeing. And all of this was when the air compressor was running.

So I'm at a loss as to why I can't get the desired RPM to up past 784 when I'm asking it to go to 1136 after 255 seconds. Nor why it won't come back down when the voltage comes up. But I'm going to quit chasing this rainbow and worry about other things for a bit.

On a slightly different topic, I called DB Electrical and talked to Karla Paddock. I explained what I'm looking for, charging amps at various RPMs on the alternators listed above, as I'm trying to understand if the 160 unit throws as much at idle as the 200 vs the 220.

She said she'll talk to a tech and get back with me, probably tomorrow. I was impressed with her willingness to help.

[Gary Lewis]

On a slightly different topic, I called DB Electrical and talked to Karla Paddock. I explained what I'm looking for, charging amps at various RPMs on the alternators listed above, as I'm trying to understand if the 160 unit throws as much at idle as the 200 vs the 220.

She said she'll talk to a tech and get back with me, probably tomorrow. I was impressed with her willingness to help.

Haven't heard from Karla @ DB yet, but we did take BB on a 165 mile trip today. Have a cousin I've not seen in quite a while in Sapulpa, so took the back roads down to see him. Then the back roads to a quilt shop for Janey. Then the back roads to Muskogee for lunch, and finally the turnpike home running at 70 MPH. So of the 165 miles only 50 of them were cruising and the rest were speeding up and slowing down.

And that begat 12.55 MPG. Not great, but not bad either. Hopefully we can take it on a real cruise soon and see what it'll do. But, everything worked perfectly, so I'm happy.

[Gary Lewis]

Haven't heard from Karla @ DB yet, but we did take BB on a 165 mile trip today. Have a cousin I've not seen in quite a while in Sapulpa, so took the back roads down to see him. Then the back roads to a quilt shop for Janey. Then the back roads to Muskogee for lunch, and finally the turnpike home running at 70 MPH. So of the 165 miles only 50 of them were cruising and the rest were speeding up and slowing down.

And that begat 12.55 MPG. Not great, but not bad either. Hopefully we can take it on a real cruise soon and see what it'll do. But, everything worked perfectly, so I'm happy.

Well, I did hear from Karla at DB today and was very disappointed, as outlined in the thread entitled Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical. And, in that thread Bill gave me a link to Power Bastards, so I sent a note to them.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, I emailed Core Tuning as Decipha said in his forum that BE can't handle the task of adding RPM to the idle for low voltage, but TunerPro can. After a back and forth I found that Decipha was saying that you'd have to write custom code, which BE has no provision for but TunerPro has.

But Clint came back and said I should be able to do what I am wanting to do with the idle RPM based on voltage. (He first said to use the A/C clutch input, but I pointed out that doing so would cause a quick rise in the idle RPM and I want to avoid that. But in reality that would do what we thought PTO would do, so maybe it is worth considering. So if I can't get the low voltage bit to work I can fall back on this.)

Clint confirmed that my assumption that the "Low Voltage Idle Air Adder" table is taken into account when the voltage goes below the "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Bad" parameter, and is supposed to be disregarded when the "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Good" parameter is exceeded. And he showed me the info shown below, which I've found in the CDAN2 documentation as well.

So I'm going to be trying to figure out why it doesn't work, or at least doesn't work the way I think it should. And the first thing I'm going to look for is LOWVOL_FLG and see if it is staying set when the voltage goes above "Good".

[Gary Lewis]

Well, I did hear from Karla at DB today and was very disappointed, as outlined in the thread entitled Concerning Conversation With DB Electrical. And, in that thread Bill gave me a link to Power Bastards, so I sent a note to them.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, I emailed Core Tuning as Decipha said in his forum that BE can't handle the task of adding RPM to the idle for low voltage, but TunerPro can. After a back and forth I found that Decipha was saying that you'd have to write custom code, which BE has no provision for but TunerPro has.

But Clint came back and said I should be able to do what I am wanting to do with the idle RPM based on voltage. (He first said to use the A/C clutch input, but I pointed out that doing so would cause a quick rise in the idle RPM and I want to avoid that. But in reality that would do what we thought PTO would do, so maybe it is worth considering. So if I can't get the low voltage bit to work I can fall back on this.)

Clint confirmed that my assumption that the "Low Voltage Idle Air Adder" table is taken into account when the voltage goes below the "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Bad" parameter, and is supposed to be disregarded when the "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Good" parameter is exceeded. And he showed me the info shown below, which I've found in the CDAN2 documentation as well.

So I'm going to be trying to figure out why it doesn't work, or at least doesn't work the way I think it should. And the first thing I'm going to look for is LOWVOL_FLG and see if it is staying set when the voltage goes above "Good".

Ok guys, I need your input. It looks like there are two ways the idle can be increased:

• A/C Clutch Input: I could do as Clint suggested and wire it such that whenever the winch or the air compressor is switched on the RPM would go up by however many R's I tell it. I could come off the power to the winch so any time it runs the clutch input would see it. And I'd come off of the air compressor switch, which enables the compressor to come on if the pressure is low. While this would give a step in the idle RPM, that's exactly what PTO was going to do. So I'd just have to be careful not to switch the air compressor on when crawling, but I wouldn't normally do that. However, if I wanted to idle faster I could switch it on and not hurt anything.

• Low Voltage: I really like this approach and it won't take any extra wiring. Plus it is automagic - if either the winch or air compressor come on, which will certainly bring the voltage down, the idle RPM will go up, and smoothly if I set it that way in the table. But so far I haven't figured out how to make it work fully. And apparently no one has done this as neither Decipha or Clint can tell me how to do it. And mapping through the info above is REALLY difficult because it uses terms for parameters and tables that BE doesn't use.

I thought I'd get input from y'all. So, please lay it on me.

Bob - I'm tagging you because you've mentioned in the past having a hand throttle to speed things up a bit and especially want your thoughts on this.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Ok guys, I need your input. It looks like there are two ways the idle can be increased:

• A/C Clutch Input: I could do as Clint suggested and wire it such that whenever the winch or the air compressor is switched on the RPM would go up by however many R's I tell it. I could come off the power to the winch so any time it runs the clutch input would see it. And I'd come off of the air compressor switch, which enables the compressor to come on if the pressure is low. While this would give a step in the idle RPM, that's exactly what PTO was going to do. So I'd just have to be careful not to switch the air compressor on when crawling, but I wouldn't normally do that. However, if I wanted to idle faster I could switch it on and not hurt anything.

• Low Voltage: I really like this approach and it won't take any extra wiring. Plus it is automagic - if either the winch or air compressor come on, which will certainly bring the voltage down, the idle RPM will go up, and smoothly if I set it that way in the table. But so far I haven't figured out how to make it work fully. And apparently no one has done this as neither Decipha or Clint can tell me how to do it. And mapping through the info above is REALLY difficult because it uses terms for parameters and tables that BE doesn't use.

I thought I'd get input from y'all. So, please lay it on me.

Bob - I'm tagging you because you've mentioned in the past having a hand throttle to speed things up a bit and especially want your thoughts on this.

I'm not sure that I have anything constructive to say. (at least it seems my suggestions don't have any realistic path to implementation)

It really is a challenge if the parameters and actions don't jibe with BE.

Should we be looking for the Rosetta Stone?

 

[Gary Lewis]

I'm not sure that I have anything constructive to say. (at least it seems my suggestions don't have any realistic path to implementation)

It really is a challenge if the parameters and actions don't jibe with BE.

Should we be looking for the Rosetta Stone?

Yes, to implement the Low Voltage approach I appear to need a Rosetta Stone. Something that translates BE to Ford-speak. I've done some of that myself, but it gets to be extremely complex. Sometimes reading Decipha's instructions help as he uses more Ford terms than BE does.

Trust me, I'm not taking shots at Clint as I'm in awe of what he's done to create BE - assuming that he did most of it. BE is amazing! And Ford's terminology of "LOWVOL_SL" leaves a lot to be desired. But calling that parameter "Charging System Lowest Voltage to Indicate Bad" with nothing else said in the Comment field doesn't quite get it either. If he'd at least put "This is Ford's LOWVOL_SL and it is used to trigger the Low Voltage Idle Adder function" in the comments then I could eventually work my way through it.

Anyway, I think what I'm looking for is what you think the best approach is. I don't need to make a decision today, but wanted to get the discussion going. Which approach is best, and is the difference enough to warrant implementing it?