Big Blue's Transformation

[85lebaront2]

I understand that your coolant temps were getting high when your grandson was putting around the Church with the AC on. Is that not expected?

Did kicking the idle speed up not resolve that? Did it adversely effect driveability?

I guess I'm just confused as to why you felt that electric cooling fans were not an option because of this alternator's output.

Ford implemented the higher output 3G design because of the demands of electric cooling fans.

I would expect the alternator to be getting hot. That's why it has a big heat sink and two internal fans.

Then you point out the voltage returning to what is normal for a fully charged lead acid system after ten minutes.

Is it better to burn out than to fade away??? (Neil Young is still kicking)

Did Lamptech include any documentation as to their lamps design values?

I will throw another one out, fan clutch, is it the correct one, ie thermal. Darth's fan with the correct clutch, will go into full on mode in heat and traffic and accelerating away from a stop pulling the 5th wheel it sounded like one of NASA Langley's wind tunnels. It would do that until either the air flow temperature dropped enough or the water pump pulley rpm got to the point the centrifugal portion would de-clutch.

First time it did it we were on US301 in Southern MD passing "suburban DC" and as we left a light my late wife said "what is that? It sounds like one of the wind tunnels." (we could hear the big ones from the house in Newport News). When I explained it was the fan at full engagement she said "oh, ok, I thought something was wrong".

[Gary Lewis]

I will throw another one out, fan clutch, is it the correct one, ie thermal. Darth's fan with the correct clutch, will go into full on mode in heat and traffic and accelerating away from a stop pulling the 5th wheel it sounded like one of NASA Langley's wind tunnels. It would do that until either the air flow temperature dropped enough or the water pump pulley rpm got to the point the centrifugal portion would de-clutch.

First time it did it we were on US301 in Southern MD passing "suburban DC" and as we left a light my late wife said "what is that? It sounds like one of the wind tunnels." (we could hear the big ones from the house in Newport News). When I explained it was the fan at full engagement she said "oh, ok, I thought something was wrong".

Jim - Yes, it is expected that the coolant temp will come up when just idling around. But when I had the grandtwins driving the idle didn't increase since I had that table all messed up and the temp didn't come down. That's why I changed the table and tested it yesterday.

And I'm sure that raising the idle speed incrementally as it did yesterday won't effect the driveability. The changes came in 16 RPM increments, which are pretty subtle. In fact, the actual idle RPM shows +/- swings of about that much when the desired idle RPM is holding at a steady state. So even idling around on a Jeep trail I doubt we'll ever feel the idle speed change.

But my comment about not going with electric cooling fans really has nothing to do with this specific alternator. I'm just saying that the load the A/C and inverter, which I have on whenever the engine is running, is about all that the alternator can keep up with at the idle RPM I'm running. I don't have a way to increase idle RPM based on voltage so can't raise the alternator output to keep up with fans. But even if I could it apparently takes quite an increase in RPM to raise the voltage as it kept going down steadily even with the RPM going up from 640 to 800.

On the other hand I can increase the idle RPM based on ECT, and that proved to effectively increase the cooling. So I think I'm right where I need to be - I have an electrical system that handles the load I'm placing on it, even at idle. And a cooling system that keeps the engine cool enough when the ECU raises the idle RPM based on ECT.

Bill - It is a thermal fan clutch as I've noticed that it makes a lot more noise at some times than at others. But I can't say that it is working perfectly. Is there a way to effectively test that?

EDIT EVEN BEFORE POSTING: I've zoomed in on the chart and am going to create another post to show what I'm seeing...

[Gary Lewis]

Jim - Yes, it is expected that the coolant temp will come up when just idling around. But when I had the grandtwins driving the idle didn't increase since I had that table all messed up and the temp didn't come down. That's why I changed the table and tested it yesterday.

And I'm sure that raising the idle speed incrementally as it did yesterday won't effect the driveability. The changes came in 16 RPM increments, which are pretty subtle. In fact, the actual idle RPM shows +/- swings of about that much when the desired idle RPM is holding at a steady state. So even idling around on a Jeep trail I doubt we'll ever feel the idle speed change.

But my comment about not going with electric cooling fans really has nothing to do with this specific alternator. I'm just saying that the load the A/C and inverter, which I have on whenever the engine is running, is about all that the alternator can keep up with at the idle RPM I'm running. I don't have a way to increase idle RPM based on voltage so can't raise the alternator output to keep up with fans. But even if I could it apparently takes quite an increase in RPM to raise the voltage as it kept going down steadily even with the RPM going up from 640 to 800.

On the other hand I can increase the idle RPM based on ECT, and that proved to effectively increase the cooling. So I think I'm right where I need to be - I have an electrical system that handles the load I'm placing on it, even at idle. And a cooling system that keeps the engine cool enough when the ECU raises the idle RPM based on ECT.

Bill - It is a thermal fan clutch as I've noticed that it makes a lot more noise at some times than at others. But I can't say that it is working perfectly. Is there a way to effectively test that?

EDIT EVEN BEFORE POSTING: I've zoomed in on the chart and am going to create another post to show what I'm seeing...

Ok, I have a completely new hypothesis: The setpoint for the regulator is coming down as the temp of the regulator goes up as it assumes the battery is seeing the same temp. But there's reserve left in the alternator, even at the idle RPM being used.

I've come to that conclusion based on the chart below. The battery voltage had drifted down to 13.2V just prior to me moving the truck and the RPM was steady at about 800. I came out on the clutch w/o giving it gas and the idle went down to 506 and the battery voltage went down to 12.9. But then 3.5 seconds later, after the LRC time, the voltage went to 13.6V even though the RPM didn't quite get back to 800.

Then in the middle of the chart I came out again on the clutch and the RPM dropped to 436. Sure enough in 2.4 seconds the voltage went up to 13.5, and then dropped to the setpoint of 13.2 even though the RPM went up 1177.

So I think we are seeing the setpoint coming down due to temperature, but the alternator still isn't maxed out even at the slow idle I'm using. I don't know how much reserve is left, but it might well be enough for electric fans. If I had one of the fans I could easily test that and we'd know.

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, I have a completely new hypothesis: The setpoint for the regulator is coming down as the temp of the regulator goes up as it assumes the battery is seeing the same temp. But there's reserve left in the alternator, even at the idle RPM being used.

I've come to that conclusion based on the chart below. The battery voltage had drifted down to 13.2V just prior to me moving the truck and the RPM was steady at about 800. I came out on the clutch w/o giving it gas and the idle went down to 506 and the battery voltage went down to 12.9. But then 3.5 seconds later, after the LRC time, the voltage went to 13.6V even though the RPM didn't quite get back to 800.

Then in the middle of the chart I came out again on the clutch and the RPM dropped to 436. Sure enough in 2.4 seconds the voltage went up to 13.5, and then dropped to the setpoint of 13.2 even though the RPM went up 1177.

So I think we are seeing the setpoint coming down due to temperature, but the alternator still isn't maxed out even at the slow idle I'm using. I don't know how much reserve is left, but it might well be enough for electric fans. If I had one of the fans I could easily test that and we'd know.

And, while you ponder the new hypothesis I'll show you what I did this afternoon. Drawn up in CAD, printed and laminated, and stuck in the lid. And I printed a page to put in the documentation binder that resides in the truck.

[ArdWrknTrk]

And, while you ponder the new hypothesis I'll show you what I did this afternoon. Drawn up in CAD, printed and laminated, and stuck in the lid. And I printed a page to put in the documentation binder that resides in the truck.

You certainly have a lot of room left to expand in your PDC!

I'm not sure if there's any room left under the hood or in the cab.

Using the "ground here to test" screw on the back of the regulator/brush holder would show you maximum output at idle.

I'm not sure if an inductive pickup would show you how many amps could be forced out of the alternator, or how long the rectifier board could handle it with the cooling it gets.

[Gary Lewis]

You certainly have a lot of room left to expand in your PDC!

I'm not sure if there's any room left under the hood or in the cab.

Using the "ground here to test" screw on the back of the regulator/brush holder would show you maximum output at idle.

I'm not sure if an inductive pickup would show you how many amps could be forced out of the alternator, or how long the rectifier board could handle it with the cooling it gets.

Yep, the PDB is wide open, but the room under the hood is chock-a-block. Not expecting to put anything else under the hood, and probably not in the PDB.

I'll see what I have that might be able to measure the current, but that is a good idea. If I knew what the alternator can put out at idle then I'd have a better idea of what the system can handle.

[Bruce moose4x4]

Yep, the PDB is wide open, but the room under the hood is chock-a-block. Not expecting to put anything else under the hood, and probably not in the PDB.

I'll see what I have that might be able to measure the current, but that is a good idea. If I knew what the alternator can put out at idle then I'd have a better idea of what the system can handle.

I've got a clamp on ammeter that goes pretty high. I needed it when I worked on Firetrucks and their BIG alternators. Your more than welcome to borrow it. Drop me an email and I'll ship it to you if your interested.

At least I think I do, haven't used it in several years. I would need to check??? It may be just a volt meter. I'll try to remember to look tomorrow morning before I come to work.

[Bruce moose4x4]

I've got a clamp on ammeter that goes pretty high. I needed it when I worked on Firetrucks and their BIG alternators. Your more than welcome to borrow it. Drop me an email and I'll ship it to you if your interested.

At least I think I do, haven't used it in several years. I would need to check??? It may be just a volt meter. I'll try to remember to look tomorrow morning before I come to work.

Gary, it is a Volt -- Amp meter.

0-600 Volt

0-1000 Amp

If you want to borrow it you're more than welcome. Just drop me a line.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, it is a Volt -- Amp meter.

0-600 Volt

0-1000 Amp

If you want to borrow it you're more than welcome. Just drop me a line.

Thanks, Bruce! Let me check to see what I have. IIRC the roll-around tuneup unit has a clamp-on ammeter, but I'm not sure I've ever used it so need to check it out.

But determining the current supplied awa the current used on several devices is a good idea. For instance, I really don't know what the winch truly pulls, so have it wired directly to the aux battery w/o a fuse. I did that because I don't want to be in a pinch and blow a fuse getting out. But if I knew what it really pulls then I'd feel safe to fuse it. And the inverter is fused, but I don't truly know what it pulls so should measure it as well.

As for testing, I'd feel better having a lot of load on the batteries/alternator before hitting the Ground Here To Test screw since I don't want the voltage to go very high. So I think I'll turn the air compressor on while running the A/C.

And I need to test the PTO input to the ECU. I really don't know what happens when you take that to 12V. Some have said the idle R's come up, but I see nothing in the tune that supports that and I'd have thought there would be a parameter for idle RPM with PTO if that were true. Others have said that the emissions are disregarded when PTO is turned on, but what does that mean? So I really need to test to see if I can tell what happens.

[Gary Lewis]

Thanks, Bruce! Let me check to see what I have. IIRC the roll-around tuneup unit has a clamp-on ammeter, but I'm not sure I've ever used it so need to check it out.

But determining the current supplied awa the current used on several devices is a good idea. For instance, I really don't know what the winch truly pulls, so have it wired directly to the aux battery w/o a fuse. I did that because I don't want to be in a pinch and blow a fuse getting out. But if I knew what it really pulls then I'd feel safe to fuse it. And the inverter is fused, but I don't truly know what it pulls so should measure it as well.

As for testing, I'd feel better having a lot of load on the batteries/alternator before hitting the Ground Here To Test screw since I don't want the voltage to go very high. So I think I'll turn the air compressor on while running the A/C.

And I need to test the PTO input to the ECU. I really don't know what happens when you take that to 12V. Some have said the idle R's come up, but I see nothing in the tune that supports that and I'd have thought there would be a parameter for idle RPM with PTO if that were true. Others have said that the emissions are disregarded when PTO is turned on, but what does that mean? So I really need to test to see if I can tell what happens.

Well, Bruce, it looks like I'll pass on borrowing your meter. But thanks anyway.

Mine appears to be adequate, and I'm pretty sure it works. I haven't used it in years but did when I first got it. The Cranking Amps scale goes to 800A and the Charging Amps goes to 200A.

Bill - Don't you have the mate to it? Have you used it?