Big Blue's Transformation

[ArdWrknTrk]

Bob - My 2015 is a Caddy. Most of the bells and whistles they offered. And it is EASY to drive. Smooth, powerful, roomy, capable. And my daughter and family LOVE it.

But I don't want to take Blue on anything like Black Bear. He's too pretty and I sure don't want to scratch or bend him. Enter Big Blue.

Bill - I don't know that I agree that there isn't a gas engine equal to the 460. I honestly think the 3.5L EB is. When the twin turbos come in it has every bit of the torque of Big Blue's 460, and it is a pleasure to tow with.

Ok, now I'm off to the shop to play RESTRICTOR! (Not as in restrictor plate racing.)

Bob, I hear you.

Bill, I've had my truck longer.....

I'm saying there's plenty of room for 'improvements' but you have to temper any expectations with reality.

Gary wants creature comforts, and he's sure improved the engine, suspension and interior.

But it's still (and is always going to be) a 1985 truck, no matter how much lipstick is put on it.

[85lebaront2]

Some of us do like older trucks, and some have owned them a long time. I am only the 3rd owner of Darth, original owner was DelMar stables in Suffolk VA, the man I bought him from in 1994 bought him in a used car dealership in Kentucky. I bought him for $4500 in 1994 at the campground in Gordonsville VA.

I have, as Gary has, upgraded a few things, from carbureted to MAF/SEFI, C6 to E4OD, open rear to traction lock, rear brakes from 2 1/2" wide to 3 1/2" wide. Replaced the bed with a 1996 one as 1985-86 dually beds are impossible to find. Upgraded the crack head power distribution and alternator wiring to 1996 style, replaced the 2G "flaming Ford" alternator with a 160 amp 3G.

Interior and cab, replaced the damaged and rusted front doors with later model one, replaced the rears with 1996 full power ones, seats were non-stock when purchased so they are now 2000 Lincoln Continental 10 way power with memory capability. Added a remote keyless entry and door keypad. Updated dash and steering column to 1996 ones.

He still has the original 1986 muffler and original king pins and on a smooth road, you need to watch your speed, even with the HD dually suspension, you will find yourself lulled into being well over the speed limit.

Later model weather stripping, floor insulation and the later doors with sound deadening make him rather quiet at highway speeds (he'll cruise quite happily at 70+). Yes, I could have bought a newer truck, but, I still have no ABS, no air bags, and no catalytic converter. Taxes are a lot lower than a new truck, and we do own a 2009 Flex (mine) and a 2011 Flex (wife's) so are aware of the improvements. Until the introduction of Ford's new 7.3L gas engine, there wasn't a gas engine in a newer Ford truck to equal the 460, even in it's eviscerated state it was sold in during it's last years. My son's V10 Excursion with 3.73 gears vs Darth's 3.55 has no where near the low end torque, he needs 2nd gear in his 4R100 to do what Darth does in 3rd in the E4OD.

Think we all upgrade our trucks to be more to our liking.

I swore I would never do EFI cause you have more issues with failed electronics or if there is a EMP blast it could effectively knock out your computer since it is constantly powered unlike a solid state ignition module like a DSII which would not be powered up till the key is on. But now I have aftermarket EFI on my list which doesnt have a battery hot to keep the ECM active at all times and im also looking at going with upgraded internals on a C6 build for my truck mainly the E4OD planetary gear set to get a lower first and second gear for better acceleration/pulling. Im also drooling over the Currie Enterprises 9" third member with the detroit trutrak installed with 3.25:1 axle ratio for under $2,000 for my truck which I feel would be a perfect upgrade for the old 2.75:1 axle ratio currently in my truck that is closer to 2.55:1 with the 31x10.50-15 tires I run. The 3.25:1 would put me around a 2.90:1 and a 3.00:1 which is my other option would put me around 2.70:1 but I feel if I can swing it I rather go with the 3.25:1 long as I can keep 75 mph around 2,750 rpm for my camshaft.

Would love to go over drive but I do want to do some towing and with how hilly it will be where I will be moving to eventually I wont be able able to attempt and maintain a 65 mph speed outside of over drive on the highway that is posted 75 mph with everyone doing 85 and 90. I know for a AOD with its high over drive ratio I would need to run something like a 4.11:1 to have my final drive ratio around 2.75:1 so I wont lug my little 302 down too much.

Alternator upgrade is a must, I have a 1G but I am adding so much aftermarket high amp systems such as halogen auxiliary lights and aftermarket EFI, I really should go with the 3G upgrade if only I could find a small case wide ear patterned 95A unit I would be real happy, I know they existed for a time but seems everything with the wide ear pattern is all large case 130A units now which I could never utilize all amperage with a single V belt.

Muffler wise, I might need to change mine as I cant decide on what size single exhaust for my engine setup but Magnaflow has a 6" round 3 chamber muffler just like OE in roughly the OE dimensions which I have currently but wont use if I decide to go with the aftermarket 3" Y pipe and run my whole single exhaust in 3" pipe vs the OE layout of 2 1/2" to 2 1/4" tail pipe.

On the tax aspect, thats what bothers me, my truck used to be registered as a Texas Truck. But Texas got rid of their Truck registration which used GVW for a means of taxing so my yearly registration which used to be $65 is now $95 almost as they now tax my truck like a car by bluebook value vs by GVW. Im hopeful I can some how work some magic and get the property I have with in requirements to get Farm Truck plates, it would allow me to get access to AG Fuel as well as lower taxes on the truck.

Rusty, I have 3 spare EEC-V boxes (I used to have 4 but one is now in Skiatook OK) so failure will not disable Darth other then long enough to swap one. Exhaust, since you have a 302, it isn't as big an issue for good exhaust flow as a 460 in a 168" wheelbase. 3" should do great, My 1966 GT350 had Hooker long tube headers when the original tri-Y ones became as porous as a screen door. They were 1 5/8" primary and 3" collectors and were listed as "351 and Shelby only" they exited through Hooker Header mufflers just ahead of the rear wheels. I was turning that engine to 7000 with a redline of 7500 and coupled with the dual 465 cfm Holleys it was pushing 400 hp with no power adders (Nitrous or forced induction).

On Darth, I still have the factory style dual 2 1/2" pipes to the muffler which is just forward of the axle, then the 3" tailpipe over the axle and out behind the dual rear wheels. It originally had two screens in the end of the tailpipe as a forest service required flame arrestor. It was needed with the original carburetor and dual air pumps. It actually shot a 3 foot flame out with a semi cold engine towing a 30' 5th wheel, reached the top of the on ramp followed by a slight additional rise for an overpass, then as I started the down side of the overpass and let off the throttle "boom" and 3' flame, scared my wife as she was following me in the Pontiac.

I did some quick cross sectional area calculations the other day, 3" pipe = 7.0686 square inches, 2 1/2" pipe = 4.90875 square inches so dual 2 1/2" = 9.8175 square inches or 1.389 times the area of a 3" pipe. Since the muffler is probably 7' or more behind the engine the exhaust has cooled enough so the muffler/tailpipe isn't much if any restriction. I now understand why, in addition to more room in the back, Ford used rear mounted mufflers for a long time.

[Gary Lewis]

Rusty, I have 3 spare EEC-V boxes (I used to have 4 but one is now in Skiatook OK) so failure will not disable Darth other then long enough to swap one. Exhaust, since you have a 302, it isn't as big an issue for good exhaust flow as a 460 in a 168" wheelbase. 3" should do great, My 1966 GT350 had Hooker long tube headers when the original tri-Y ones became as porous as a screen door. They were 1 5/8" primary and 3" collectors and were listed as "351 and Shelby only" they exited through Hooker Header mufflers just ahead of the rear wheels. I was turning that engine to 7000 with a redline of 7500 and coupled with the dual 465 cfm Holleys it was pushing 400 hp with no power adders (Nitrous or forced induction).

On Darth, I still have the factory style dual 2 1/2" pipes to the muffler which is just forward of the axle, then the 3" tailpipe over the axle and out behind the dual rear wheels. It originally had two screens in the end of the tailpipe as a forest service required flame arrestor. It was needed with the original carburetor and dual air pumps. It actually shot a 3 foot flame out with a semi cold engine towing a 30' 5th wheel, reached the top of the on ramp followed by a slight additional rise for an overpass, then as I started the down side of the overpass and let off the throttle "boom" and 3' flame, scared my wife as she was following me in the Pontiac.

I did some quick cross sectional area calculations the other day, 3" pipe = 7.0686 square inches, 2 1/2" pipe = 4.90875 square inches so dual 2 1/2" = 9.8175 square inches or 1.389 times the area of a 3" pipe. Since the muffler is probably 7' or more behind the engine the exhaust has cooled enough so the muffler/tailpipe isn't much if any restriction. I now understand why, in addition to more room in the back, Ford used rear mounted mufflers for a long time.

Well, while y'all debate creature comforts, lipstick on pigs, exhausts, EMP, etc I've been working. I'll let the pictures tell the story, with the exception that the jet is a .105. Now we are going to take the pig for a ride.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Well, while y'all debate creature comforts, lipstick on pigs, exhausts, EMP, etc I've been working. I'll let the pictures tell the story, with the exception that the jet is a .105. Now we are going to take the pig for a ride.

I think it has to be much smaller than 1/10"....

[Gary Lewis]

I think it has to be much smaller than 1/10"....

Jim - That's what I thought as well, but apparently not. Here are the results, in the order we tested:

• .105": Much improved over not having a restriction, but still some roughness

• .068": Too small. The speed control overshot on acceleration and then shut off abruptly, then overshot on deceleration, then... It didn't really go into oscillation, but it was obviously not the right answer.

• .093": Better than the little one but not as good as the big one. Still seemed to overshoot a bit and then go the other way.

• .105": Stopped to install a bigger jet, but don't appear to have anything bigger than .105. So I put the .105 back in. It was better than the .093, but still may be too small.

I may run a drill bit through one that I have several off and try again in a few days. But right now I'm happy that it helped. And, I'm thinking of installing the VSS and running the wires from there to see if that might help as well as the throttle changes on bumps.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - That's what I thought as well, but apparently not. Here are the results, in the order we tested:

• .105": Much improved over not having a restriction, but still some roughness

• .068": Too small. The speed control overshot on acceleration and then shut off abruptly, then overshot on deceleration, then... It didn't really go into oscillation, but it was obviously not the right answer.

• .093": Better than the little one but not as good as the big one. Still seemed to overshoot a bit and then go the other way.

• .105": Stopped to install a bigger jet, but don't appear to have anything bigger than .105. So I put the .105 back in. It was better than the .093, but still may be too small.

I may run a drill bit through one that I have several off and try again in a few days. But right now I'm happy that it helped. And, I'm thinking of installing the VSS and running the wires from there to see if that might help as well as the throttle changes on bumps.

I stand corrected!

Ford engineers certainly had this sorted (at the time)

[Rusty_S85]

Rusty, I have 3 spare EEC-V boxes (I used to have 4 but one is now in Skiatook OK) so failure will not disable Darth other then long enough to swap one. Exhaust, since you have a 302, it isn't as big an issue for good exhaust flow as a 460 in a 168" wheelbase. 3" should do great, My 1966 GT350 had Hooker long tube headers when the original tri-Y ones became as porous as a screen door. They were 1 5/8" primary and 3" collectors and were listed as "351 and Shelby only" they exited through Hooker Header mufflers just ahead of the rear wheels. I was turning that engine to 7000 with a redline of 7500 and coupled with the dual 465 cfm Holleys it was pushing 400 hp with no power adders (Nitrous or forced induction).

On Darth, I still have the factory style dual 2 1/2" pipes to the muffler which is just forward of the axle, then the 3" tailpipe over the axle and out behind the dual rear wheels. It originally had two screens in the end of the tailpipe as a forest service required flame arrestor. It was needed with the original carburetor and dual air pumps. It actually shot a 3 foot flame out with a semi cold engine towing a 30' 5th wheel, reached the top of the on ramp followed by a slight additional rise for an overpass, then as I started the down side of the overpass and let off the throttle "boom" and 3' flame, scared my wife as she was following me in the Pontiac.

I did some quick cross sectional area calculations the other day, 3" pipe = 7.0686 square inches, 2 1/2" pipe = 4.90875 square inches so dual 2 1/2" = 9.8175 square inches or 1.389 times the area of a 3" pipe. Since the muffler is probably 7' or more behind the engine the exhaust has cooled enough so the muffler/tailpipe isn't much if any restriction. I now understand why, in addition to more room in the back, Ford used rear mounted mufflers for a long time.

Thats good. I got a couple spare NOS Motorcraft DSII modules as they were $12 a pop and I bought all they had on hand.

Thats was my line of thought as well, by time the exhaust gets to the muffler/tail pipe it has cooled enough that you need to shrink the size of the exhaust down to maintain velocity otherwise the exhaust actually will slow down in the pipes as the exhaust continues to cool. I read that some where years ago and it made sense as to why Ford would go from 2 1/2" single to 2 1/4" for the tail pipe. Was my line of thought for my exhaust as well but then again I didnt take into account running higher flowing AFR heads, higher lift roller cam, a 800cfm Sniper Stealth but then I also am choking the exhaust side down slightly by running shorty street headers that has the OE ball flange collector. I seriously am leaning towards the 3" Y pipe but at the same time I am thinking about running the OE setup and see what it makes at dyno when I take it to have the sniper stealth tuned. Down side to doing this would be extra expense, at least right now if I decide to go 3" single I could buy the 3" variant muffler and then return my 2 1/4" variant and get my money back on it.

But I wont be turning 7,000 rpm like you were turning, at best 5,500 would be my max as my engine with the valve springs should redline at 6,000. Roller lifters should be good to 6,500 rpm and scorpion roller rockers I think I read they are good to some 7,500 rpm. Limiting factor for me will be my C6 transmission, the transmission shop I am going to have build me one said he wont be able to get the governor exactly to shift at wide throttle at 5,500 rpm but he can get it close. So I might be a little under 5,500 or a little over 5,500 rpm. Then I dont even know if my intake manifold and headers will allow me to really benefit from turning 5,500 rpm like I am hoping.

The other thing I was thinking is with how large the muffler is case wise on length x width it really shouldnt be much restriction in my eyes but now the pipe before the muffler and the Y pipe itself that is where I am really questioning. I been meaning to talk with the guy that is going to do the tuning on my sniper and see what he thinks exhaust wise but for me the price wont be a whole lot different.

Bassani Y pipe : $322.14

Magnaflow muffler 3" inlet/outlet : $111.00

vs

Magnaflow Y pipe : $386.00

Magnaflow muffler 2 1/4" inlet/outlet : $90.00

Tailpipe 2 1/4" : $30.00

So either way I go it will cost me about the same.

[Gary Lewis]

Rusty, I have 3 spare EEC-V boxes (I used to have 4 but one is now in Skiatook OK) so failure will not disable Darth other then long enough to swap one. Exhaust, since you have a 302, it isn't as big an issue for good exhaust flow as a 460 in a 168" wheelbase. 3" should do great, My 1966 GT350 had Hooker long tube headers when the original tri-Y ones became as porous as a screen door. They were 1 5/8" primary and 3" collectors and were listed as "351 and Shelby only" they exited through Hooker Header mufflers just ahead of the rear wheels. I was turning that engine to 7000 with a redline of 7500 and coupled with the dual 465 cfm Holleys it was pushing 400 hp with no power adders (Nitrous or forced induction).

On Darth, I still have the factory style dual 2 1/2" pipes to the muffler which is just forward of the axle, then the 3" tailpipe over the axle and out behind the dual rear wheels. It originally had two screens in the end of the tailpipe as a forest service required flame arrestor. It was needed with the original carburetor and dual air pumps. It actually shot a 3 foot flame out with a semi cold engine towing a 30' 5th wheel, reached the top of the on ramp followed by a slight additional rise for an overpass, then as I started the down side of the overpass and let off the throttle "boom" and 3' flame, scared my wife as she was following me in the Pontiac.

I did some quick cross sectional area calculations the other day, 3" pipe = 7.0686 square inches, 2 1/2" pipe = 4.90875 square inches so dual 2 1/2" = 9.8175 square inches or 1.389 times the area of a 3" pipe. Since the muffler is probably 7' or more behind the engine the exhaust has cooled enough so the muffler/tailpipe isn't much if any restriction. I now understand why, in addition to more room in the back, Ford used rear mounted mufflers for a long time.

Thats good. I got a couple spare NOS Motorcraft DSII modules as they were $12 a pop and I bought all they had on hand.

Thats was my line of thought as well, by time the exhaust gets to the muffler/tail pipe it has cooled enough that you need to shrink the size of the exhaust down to maintain velocity otherwise the exhaust actually will slow down in the pipes as the exhaust continues to cool. I read that some where years ago and it made sense as to why Ford would go from 2 1/2" single to 2 1/4" for the tail pipe. Was my line of thought for my exhaust as well but then again I didnt take into account running higher flowing AFR heads, higher lift roller cam, a 800cfm Sniper Stealth but then I also am choking the exhaust side down slightly by running shorty street headers that has the OE ball flange collector. I seriously am leaning towards the 3" Y pipe but at the same time I am thinking about running the OE setup and see what it makes at dyno when I take it to have the sniper stealth tuned. Down side to doing this would be extra expense, at least right now if I decide to go 3" single I could buy the 3" variant muffler and then return my 2 1/4" variant and get my money back on it.

But I wont be turning 7,000 rpm like you were turning, at best 5,500 would be my max as my engine with the valve springs should redline at 6,000. Roller lifters should be good to 6,500 rpm and scorpion roller rockers I think I read they are good to some 7,500 rpm. Limiting factor for me will be my C6 transmission, the transmission shop I am going to have build me one said he wont be able to get the governor exactly to shift at wide throttle at 5,500 rpm but he can get it close. So I might be a little under 5,500 or a little over 5,500 rpm. Then I dont even know if my intake manifold and headers will allow me to really benefit from turning 5,500 rpm like I am hoping.

The other thing I was thinking is with how large the muffler is case wise on length x width it really shouldnt be much restriction in my eyes but now the pipe before the muffler and the Y pipe itself that is where I am really questioning. I been meaning to talk with the guy that is going to do the tuning on my sniper and see what he thinks exhaust wise but for me the price wont be a whole lot different.

Bassani Y pipe : $322.14

Magnaflow muffler 3" inlet/outlet : $111.00

vs

Magnaflow Y pipe : $386.00

Magnaflow muffler 2 1/4" inlet/outlet : $90.00

Tailpipe 2 1/4" : $30.00

So either way I go it will cost me about the same.

Did some analysis on the orifices I used and, assuming that the .220" outlet of the valve section and inlet to the servo itself are the restrictions in the factory setup, I went much, much smaller. As you can see, the .105 was roughly 1/4th the size and the .068 was 1/10th the size!

Since the .105 was the best of the ones I tested I made three new ones at roughly 3/4's, 1/2, and 1/3 and will go out in a bit to test them.

And, I was going to swap in the VSS device to provide the signal to the speed control, but ran into two problems, which I'll detail a bit later. But, the first is that it takes a connector I'm not sure I have, and the second is that it isn't designed to take a Bullnose speedo cable. More later....

[Gary Lewis]

Did some analysis on the orifices I used and, assuming that the .220" outlet of the valve section and inlet to the servo itself are the restrictions in the factory setup, I went much, much smaller. As you can see, the .105 was roughly 1/4th the size and the .068 was 1/10th the size!

Since the .105 was the best of the ones I tested I made three new ones at roughly 3/4's, 1/2, and 1/3 and will go out in a bit to test them.

And, I was going to swap in the VSS device to provide the signal to the speed control, but ran into two problems, which I'll detail a bit later. But, the first is that it takes a connector I'm not sure I have, and the second is that it isn't designed to take a Bullnose speedo cable. More later....

And now for the VSS. The ends of the speedo cables are different. The pic below shows the Bullnose cable on the bottom and the one that was in the VSS on the top - which is only ~6" long. The Bullnose inner cable will go in, but the outer part won't because it is .431" OD and the later cable is .393" and the VSS opening is .396".

And below are two pics of the VSS itself. On the right you can see down into where the speedo cable goes, and I'm thinking about boring that out to take the .431" end of the Bullnose cable. The OD of the VSS is ~.900" so there's plenty of meat to allow that.

Another approach would be to buy a new later model cable to fit. But I'm not finding it in the MPC. Does anyone know when they started using the VSS? And a part number for it or the cable that fits it?

Also, I'm not finding the connector that fits it. I would have thought it would be with the EEC stuff I took off Huck, but it hasn't shown up.

Thoughts on any of this?

[Rembrant]

And now for the VSS. The ends of the speedo cables are different. The pic below shows the Bullnose cable on the bottom and the one that was in the VSS on the top - which is only ~6" long. The Bullnose inner cable will go in, but the outer part won't because it is .431" OD and the later cable is .393" and the VSS opening is .396".

And below are two pics of the VSS itself. On the right you can see down into where the speedo cable goes, and I'm thinking about boring that out to take the .431" end of the Bullnose cable. The OD of the VSS is ~.900" so there's plenty of meat to allow that.

Another approach would be to buy a new later model cable to fit. But I'm not finding it in the MPC. Does anyone know when they started using the VSS? And a part number for it or the cable that fits it?

Also, I'm not finding the connector that fits it. I would have thought it would be with the EEC stuff I took off Huck, but it hasn't shown up.

Thoughts on any of this?

Gary,

I bought one of these cables brand new...actually, I think I have two of them (2 different brands) and I also have a new VSS, and I bought a new plug/pigtail for it as well. It's all on the shelf waiting for me to get to the CC installation.

I can get you the info on the cables though...pretty sure they started using that style VSS and cable in 1988 (when the 5spd arrived).