Big Blue's Transformation

[ArdWrknTrk]

I guess you are right, it isn't a coating but a treatment. Thanks for the correction.

As for the totes, those are actually from Sams, but appear to be the same as HD's. I've decided that instead of looking for cardboard boxes as we leave Sams I'll buy a tote to bring the things home in. Works out nicely.

That one has more than I care to lift in it, including D60 spindles, knuckles, spring hangers & shackles, IDI perches, u-bolts, shock mounts & towers, dust shields, etc. Consolidated a lot of stuff, but is way too heavy to carry w/o help.

Sorry for being pedantic.

It's part of this whole autism thing.

And just minutes ago I was questioning myself, thinking 'maybe this is like the zinc chromate primers of old'.... that would be a coating.

So, I wasn't doubting you. Just trying to get a better understanding of what kind of process you would use under PC, and how it would hold up in the oven without off gassing.

[Gary Lewis]

Sorry for being pedantic.

It's part of this whole autism thing.

And just minutes ago I was questioning myself, thinking 'maybe this is like the zinc chromate primers of old'.... that would be a coating.

So, I wasn't doubting you. Just trying to get a better understanding of what kind of process you would use under PC, and how it would hold up in the oven without off gassing.

I didn't take it as pedantic at all. More informative. In fact, I've recently re-read the guidance on phosphate coatings due to our conversations. I've not found any mention of out-gassing problems with powder coating an iron phosphate surface, but I was concerned about that as well.

When I first started powder coating I phosphated everything. But later learned that a media-blasted surface provides adequate tooth for adhesion w/o phosphating, so have switched to that for most things. However, phosphating does provides an even better surface texture and also gives some additional corrosion protection, so it would be a good choice for brake calipers.

[Gary Lewis]

I didn't take it as pedantic at all. More informative. In fact, I've recently re-read the guidance on phosphate coatings due to our conversations. I've not found any mention of out-gassing problems with powder coating an iron phosphate surface, but I was concerned about that as well.

When I first started powder coating I phosphated everything. But later learned that a media-blasted surface provides adequate tooth for adhesion w/o phosphating, so have switched to that for most things. However, phosphating does provides an even better surface texture and also gives some additional corrosion protection, so it would be a good choice for brake calipers.

Oh, and the process will be to spray the chemical on the calipers and keep them wet for at least 20 minutes. I've tried heating the part before spraying it, but that usually creates a layer that has to be washed off, so just keeping it wet works well.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I didn't take it as pedantic at all. More informative. In fact, I've recently re-read the guidance on phosphate coatings due to our conversations. I've not found any mention of out-gassing problems with powder coating an iron phosphate surface, but I was concerned about that as well.

When I first started powder coating I phosphated everything. But later learned that a media-blasted surface provides adequate tooth for adhesion w/o phosphating, so have switched to that for most things. However, phosphating does provides an even better surface texture and also gives some additional corrosion protection, so it would be a good choice for brake calipers.

Thanks Gary.

I didn't think FePO4 would off gas, but I did think something like the ZnCr primer would, and would probably get soft at elevated temperatures.

This is why I asked.

Thanks for sharing your powder coating knowledge and experience as well.

[Gary Lewis]

Thanks Gary.

I didn't think FePO4 would off gas, but I did think something like the ZnCr primer would, and would probably get soft at elevated temperatures.

This is why I asked.

Thanks for sharing your powder coating knowledge and experience as well.

I'm not sure "experience" is the same as "knowledge". I've PC'd hundreds, if not thousands, of parts. But to say I have knowledge might be a stretch. However, I've had some serious failures and those have been the times when I've learned more than on the successes. Here are some of those failures:

• Lack of grease removal: My original thinking was that media-blasting would remove grease, so I blasted dirty parts. But all that did was to contaminate the media and embed dirt and grease in the part. Then, when in the oven, the grease turns liquid and runs out of the pores and seriously messes up the powder. The only thing that works for me is to make the part CLEAN before blasting, then rinse it with brake cleaner after blasting.

• Out-gassing: Aluminum is bad about harboring crud on the surface. Whether that's in pores or cracks or whatever, it is there and unless it is removed when the part gets up to temp it'll out-gas and blow the powder off. So aluminum parts have to be brought up to temp, ~400 degrees, and held there for at least 20 minutes to burn off the crud. I have an air cleaner cover that has fish eyes all over it.

• 2nd Coat: Many of the powders are supposed to have a 2nd coat on them to protect them, like primers and metallic powders. But since powder is applied via electrostatic attraction and the 1st coat insulates the part, getting a second coat on is difficult. However, if you put the 2nd coat on when the part is hot, like when you pull the part from the oven on the 1st pass, the powder will stick to the hot part very well. But, it is then very easy to get too much powder.

• Orientation: If the part has cavities that can hold powder you might want to orient the cavities down when applying the powder. Ask Brandon/Bruno2 what his timing cover looked like.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I'm not sure "experience" is the same as "knowledge". I've PC'd hundreds, if not thousands, of parts. But to say I have knowledge might be a stretch. However, I've had some serious failures and those have been the times when I've learned more than on the successes. Here are some of those failures:

• Lack of grease removal: My original thinking was that media-blasting would remove grease, so I blasted dirty parts. But all that did was to contaminate the media and embed dirt and grease in the part. Then, when in the oven, the grease turns liquid and runs out of the pores and seriously messes up the powder. The only thing that works for me is to make the part CLEAN before blasting, then rinse it with brake cleaner after blasting.

• Out-gassing: Aluminum is bad about harboring crud on the surface. Whether that's in pores or cracks or whatever, it is there and unless it is removed when the part gets up to temp it'll out-gas and blow the powder off. So aluminum parts have to be brought up to temp, ~400 degrees, and held there for at least 20 minutes to burn off the crud. I have an air cleaner cover that has fish eyes all over it.

• 2nd Coat: Many of the powders are supposed to have a 2nd coat on them to protect them, like primers and metallic powders. But since powder is applied via electrostatic attraction and the 1st coat insulates the part, getting a second coat on is difficult. However, if you put the 2nd coat on when the part is hot, like when you pull the part from the oven on the 1st pass, the powder will stick to the hot part very well. But, it is then very easy to get too much powder.

• Orientation: If the part has cavities that can hold powder you might want to orient the cavities down when applying the powder. Ask Brandon/Bruno2 what his timing cover looked like.

I mentioned both. Not trying to say one = the other.

You have, and share, both

Kind of reminds me of the epoxy encapsulation learning process.

A) Always coat at the end of the day (as solar heating is tapering off)

B) Do not use a 'fast' hardener that creates a lot of exotherm.

C) Keep coating thickness to a minimum. Not only to limit heating, but to more easily allow bubbles to burst through.

Air in the pores of wood will expand and make the epoxy a froth in really bad cases.

Another workaround is to wrap your workpiece in an electric blanket and get it really warm before application.

That not only lowers the viscosity of the epoxy as it's applied, but tends to draw it in as the wood cools.

 

[Gary Lewis]

I mentioned both. Not trying to say one = the other.

You have, and share, both

Kind of reminds me of the epoxy encapsulation learning process.

A) Always coat at the end of the day (as solar heating is tapering off)

B) Do not use a 'fast' hardener that creates a lot of exotherm.

C) Keep coating thickness to a minimum. Not only to limit heating, but to more easily allow bubbles to burst through.

Air in the pores of wood will expand and make the epoxy a froth in really bad cases.

Another workaround is to wrap your workpiece in an electric blanket and get it really warm before application.

That not only lowers the viscosity of the epoxy as it's applied, but tends to draw it in as the wood cools.

Jim - What were you epoxy coating? Looks like a learning process.

All - I think I've figured out what the deal is with the locking hubs. I bought the 1995 factory shop manual so I'd have the illustrations, torque values, etc as I'm re-installing things. And, in doing so I ran across these two illustrations that 'splain what the deal is with the hubs. Looks like I "lucked out" as I have the later ones.

Notice that the early hubs have 6 screws and the later hubs, like mine, have 3 screws. And the early hubs have a 7/8 turn engagement where the later hubs have 1/3 turn engagement. And the latter has me a bit concerned as just turning the lockout dials with the hubs off is tough to do, much less with them installed. I've sprayed silicone on one of them and it didn't help. Perhaps if I pull it apart, clean and lube it it'll get better.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - What were you epoxy coating? Looks like a learning process.

All - I think I've figured out what the deal is with the locking hubs. I bought the 1995 factory shop manual so I'd have the illustrations, torque values, etc as I'm re-installing things. And, in doing so I ran across these two illustrations that 'splain what the deal is with the hubs. Looks like I "lucked out" as I have the later ones.

Notice that the early hubs have 6 screws and the later hubs, like mine, have 3 screws. And the early hubs have a 7/8 turn engagement where the later hubs have 1/3 turn engagement. And the latter has me a bit concerned as just turning the lockout dials with the hubs off is tough to do, much less with them installed. I've sprayed silicone on one of them and it didn't help. Perhaps if I pull it apart, clean and lube it it'll get better.

Lots of things Gary.

Boats -13' kayak to a 36' sloop.

Bent laminations - bows, skis, snowshoes, fishing nets.

Exterior architecture - like column caps and fenestration (palladian & arch window casings, jambs, muntins and mullions)

Pretty much any time you need natures composite material (wood) to be completely water and rot proof.

* stupid auto correct *

[Nothing Special]

.... All - I think I've figured out what the deal is with the locking hubs. I bought the 1995 factory shop manual so I'd have the illustrations, torque values, etc as I'm re-installing things. And, in doing so I ran across these two illustrations that 'splain what the deal is with the hubs. Looks like I "lucked out" as I have the later ones. ....

Did Warn make the factory manual hubs? I've always thought they look much the same, and I think Warn made a design change in their "standard" hub at some point. That might have coincided with the March 1995 change at Ford.

I know that currently the Warn Premium hubs take almost one full turn to move from "lock" to "free" (or the other way) and there's no real spring bias trying to move the dial to any particular position. On the other hand, currently the Warn Standard hub takes about 1/4 turn from "lock" to "free", and there is a spring that tries to hold it in the "lock" position, with a detent holding it in the "free" position. If you move the dial just barely out of that detent it will snap to the "lock" position if you let go of it.

I had a set of Warn Standard hubs on my current F-250 for a month or two. One of them kept locking itself. Apparently the detent was too weak (or the spring too strong) but it was not at all uncommon for me to find it in the "lock" position when I had unlocked it a day or three earlier. I was able to return them to the vendor I had bought them from and get Warn Premiums in their place. No trouble since with the hubs moving on their own.

I say that I think Warn changed their design because I have it in my head that their Standard hubs used to have the almost 1 full turn with no spring or detent. But saying that, I don't know why I think that. I've never owned any Warn Standards other than that one set. So it could just have been a bad assumption on my part. But anyway, that's definitely a difference between the Warn Standard and Premium hubs now (or at least about 5 years ago when I was going through that on my F-250)

Oh, and generally you are not supposed to put grease on manual hubs. Over-lubing them seems to generally cause more problems than under-lubing. So if you do clean and re-lube them, keep the lube on the light side.

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

.... All - I think I've figured out what the deal is with the locking hubs. I bought the 1995 factory shop manual so I'd have the illustrations, torque values, etc as I'm re-installing things. And, in doing so I ran across these two illustrations that 'splain what the deal is with the hubs. Looks like I "lucked out" as I have the later ones. ....

Did Warn make the factory manual hubs? I've always thought they look much the same, and I think Warn made a design change in their "standard" hub at some point. That might have coincided with the March 1995 change at Ford.

I know that currently the Warn Premium hubs take almost one full turn to move from "lock" to "free" (or the other way) and there's no real spring bias trying to move the dial to any particular position. On the other hand, currently the Warn Standard hub takes about 1/4 turn from "lock" to "free", and there is a spring that tries to hold it in the "lock" position, with a detent holding it in the "free" position. If you move the dial just barely out of that detent it will snap to the "lock" position if you let go of it.

I had a set of Warn Standard hubs on my current F-250 for a month or two. One of them kept locking itself. Apparently the detent was too weak (or the spring too strong) but it was not at all uncommon for me to find it in the "lock" position when I had unlocked it a day or three earlier. I was able to return them to the vendor I had bought them from and get Warn Premiums in their place. No trouble since with the hubs moving on their own.

I say that I think Warn changed their design because I have it in my head that their Standard hubs used to have the almost 1 full turn with no spring or detent. But saying that, I don't know why I think that. I've never owned any Warn Standards other than that one set. So it could just have been a bad assumption on my part. But anyway, that's definitely a difference between the Warn Standard and Premium hubs now (or at least about 5 years ago when I was going through that on my F-250)

Oh, and generally you are not supposed to put grease on manual hubs. Over-lubing them seems to generally cause more problems than under-lubing. So if you do clean and re-lube them, keep the lube on the light side.

Maybe something like the Teflon dry lube from PB Blaster would remove stiction without turning dust into the clay like lapping compound that causes these hubs to seize?