Big Blue's Transformation

[Gary Lewis]

My opinion is that while drilled or slotted rotors allow water and mud to be wiped off with older organic/asbestos pads they don't do too much with modern ceramic or metallic pads.

**If you're evolving a lot of gas from the pads and you're not racing or have lost your gearbox on a mile long downhill, you have the wrong compound or friction material.

And all the holes 'added surface area to dissipate heat' also reduces thermal mass that could be used to absorb some heat, while providing pockets for corrosion to form.

***add link that compares real world v/s track***

Plus they wear pads faster.

IDK about preferred brands but I stay away from Wagner because of past QC issues. (Just like Autolite plugs and MrGasket parts)

Motorcraft is always good. Raybestos seems ok as well.

As far as performance brands EBC and Brembo are good.

Akebono make good friction material too.

So that's my 2c

I don't know anything about Dana/Spicer's newer lines of U-joints.

Hopefully they are sticking to their old quality standards.

Jim - Pretty much my understanding on the drilled/slotted rotors as well. Thanks.

But, I hadn't heard/read about problems with Wagners. I do like Raybestos. And their 66476 rotor appears to be a good one.

Still struggling on the calipers. They want real money for re-manufactured ones, so perhaps I should pull these apart and see what shape they are in. The pads look almost new, so perhaps the calipers are as well.

On the u-joints, I think I'll try the blue ones for the axles since they are so much fun to get out, and go with the non-coated ones for the driveshaft.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - Pretty much my understanding on the drilled/slotted rotors as well. Thanks.

But, I hadn't heard/read about problems with Wagners. I do like Raybestos. And their 66476 rotor appears to be a good one.

Still struggling on the calipers. They want real money for re-manufactured ones, so perhaps I should pull these apart and see what shape they are in. The pads look almost new, so perhaps the calipers are as well.

On the u-joints, I think I'll try the blue ones for the axles since they are so much fun to get out, and go with the non-coated ones for the driveshaft.

Slotted rotors can help if you're deep into mud often but sometimes the screech or ringing when coming to a stop is off-putting.

Can't you rebuild calipers yourself?

New bleed nipples, boots and seals?

I suppose if the seal surfaces or slider holes are damaged you'd need new.

Wagner:

That's just my personal experience with friction coming off pads and shoes not being properly welded together.

Once... Okay it slipped through.

Bad parts twice, sorry I'm gone.

Especially something as safety critical as brakes.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Slotted rotors can help if you're deep into mud often but sometimes the screech or ringing when coming to a stop is off-putting.

Can't you rebuild calipers yourself?

New bleed nipples, boots and seals?

I suppose if the seal surfaces or slider holes are damaged you'd need new.

Wagner:

That's just my personal experience with friction coming off pads and shoes not being properly welded together.

Once... Okay it slipped through.

Bad parts twice, sorry I'm gone.

Especially something as safety critical as brakes.

I just want to add that I'm using Motorcraft severe or super duty brake pads. (I forget which)

Long lasting, no problems with wet braking or squeal.

Don't seem to fade or eat the rotors.

I would have no hesitation recommending these to a friend or using them again.

[Nothing Special]

.... As for ripping an air line, my plan was to get the springs to carry the normal load and I'd just use the air bags for when I'm carrying a heavy load like when I'm towing.

Anyway, good idea to wait for the on the rear springs until I get the other bits in place.

As you are waiting before deciding on the rear springs this isn't at all urgent now. But I had air helper springs (Firestone Ride-Rite) on the rear of my '95 F-150. They were needed when I started carrying a slide-in camper with it (it was a lightweight camper, not overloading the truck when it was empty, but i think I'm glad I never had to stop at a weigh station when I was load on a family camping trip).

That gave the truck the best of two worlds, good ride on even rough roads empty with the stock 1/2 ton suspension and good stability with a tall, heavy load in the bed. But there was a third world where they were definitely lacking and that was off-road. They REALLY limited wheel travel. I had them mounted so the truck hit its own bumpstops about the same place it the the stops in the air bags. But that meant the air bags acted as limiting straps. I think I could've got at least 6" more down travel (and probably even more than that) without the air bags.

I'm not saying your stock springs are the hot ticket. But consider your wheel travel goals when you get around to looking at air helper springs.

[Gary Lewis]

Slotted rotors can help if you're deep into mud often but sometimes the screech or ringing when coming to a stop is off-putting.Can't you rebuild calipers yourself?New bleed nipples, boots and seals?I suppose if the seal surfaces or slider holes are damaged you'd need new.Wagner:That's just my personal experience with friction coming off pads and shoes not being properly welded together.Once... Okay it slipped through. Bad parts twice, sorry I'm gone.Especially something as safety critical as brakes.

Jim - Yes, I can rebuild them. But I was expecting "new" prices to be a bit less than the $85/ea and up that I'm finding, and thought I'd just go "new". So I will pull them apart and see what they look like. It isn't as if they are all that hard to replace at a later date if needed.

And, that kinda explains my thinking on this project. If it is extremely hard to get to, like the internals of the differential, then do it RIGHT. If it is hard to get to, like the u-joints in the axles, then do it right. If it isn't too hard to get to, like brake calipers or driveshaft, then use good quality components.

Man, that's really poor QC on Wagner's part.

Bob - I guess I hadn't thought about the air bags limiting travel. You had the stops on the air bags hitting at the same time as the truck's bump stops. But, since you need to keep some air in the bags at all times they were limiting things long before hitting the bump stops? Is that what you are saying?

So, if the air bags were set so that they came into play at minimum pressure at the same time as the axle hit the bump stops then you'd have full travel in an unloaded situation. And since the bump stops would prevent travel from going any further you'd never hit the air bag's stops. Would that work?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - Yes, I can rebuild them. But I was expecting "new" prices to be a bit less than the $85/ea and up that I'm finding, and thought I'd just go "new". So I will pull them apart and see what they look like. It isn't as if they are all that hard to replace at a later date if needed.

And, that kinda explains my thinking on this project. If it is extremely hard to get to, like the internals of the differential, then do it RIGHT. If it is hard to get to, like the u-joints in the axles, then do it right. If it isn't too hard to get to, like brake calipers or driveshaft, then use good quality components.

Man, that's really poor QC on Wagner's part.

Bob - I guess I hadn't thought about the air bags limiting travel. You had the stops on the air bags hitting at the same time as the truck's bump stops. But, since you need to keep some air in the bags at all times they were limiting things long before hitting the bump stops? Is that what you are saying?

So, if the air bags were set so that they came into play at minimum pressure at the same time as the axle hit the bump stops then you'd have full travel in an unloaded situation. And since the bump stops would prevent travel from going any further you'd never hit the air bag's stops. Would that work?

What I got from Bob's reply was that the airbags were acting like limit straps, keeping the suspension from fully extending.But that's just how I read it

[Gary Lewis]

What I got from Bob's reply was that the airbags were acting like limit straps, keeping the suspension from fully extending.

But that's just how I read it

Duh! Yes, that's what he said. My bad!

So they are connected to the frame and axle and don't stretch far enough to allow full travel. That's surely what he said rather than my poor understanding.

But, that makes me wonder if all air bags work that way? Probably, but it would be something to explore.

Thanks for the correction.

[Nothing Special]

Duh! Yes, that's what he said. My bad!

So they are connected to the frame and axle and don't stretch far enough to allow full travel. That's surely what he said rather than my poor understanding.

But, that makes me wonder if all air bags work that way? Probably, but it would be something to explore.

Thanks for the correction.

Yup, that's what I meant to be saying.

I probably could've mounted the air bags so they limited up-travel more and down travel less if I wanted to make that trade-off. But I didn't think through it that much when I mounted them, and for the use that truck saw it was never a big enough issue to work on it.

I did consider trying to modify one side of the mount (top side or bottom side) to let the axle fall away from the air bag (or the air bag from the frame) to allow full droop. But I would've wanted to recapture it when the axle came back up so it couldn't "squirt" out, and I never had a great idea on how to do that. And see the paragraph above about it not being that big an issue for me.

I know that there are air springs that allow a lot more travel than the Firestones I had. There are competition rock buggies with insane travel using air springs (geometry helps them too of course). So I'm sure there are ways to get whatever you want to get. But it likely won't be as simple as ordering bolt-on air helper springs and following the directions.

I think if it was me I'd skip the air bags and go sort of middle of the road with the leafs. Maybe not as stiff as would be ideal for carrying the biggest loads I envisioned, but not as soft as I'd consider ideal for trail running. I'm sure you could come up with something better with enough work. But I'd be tempted to keep the work down and just strike what I hope would be a reasonable compromise.

That said, as I talked about in my trip report from Ouray last year, my '71 Bronco was one of the slowest vehicles on the trails, and ride quality was the limiting factor on my speed most of the time. Any 3/4 ton truck will be handicapped in that way even more than my Bronco. The minimalist approach I said I might favor would simply accept that limitation. I still think that's what I would lean toward. But I certainly understand the desire to improve on it.

 

[Gary Lewis]

Duh! Yes, that's what he said. My bad!

So they are connected to the frame and axle and don't stretch far enough to allow full travel. That's surely what he said rather than my poor understanding.

But, that makes me wonder if all air bags work that way? Probably, but it would be something to explore.

Thanks for the correction.

Yup, that's what I meant to be saying.

I probably could've mounted the air bags so they limited up-travel more and down travel less if I wanted to make that trade-off. But I didn't think through it that much when I mounted them, and for the use that truck saw it was never a big enough issue to work on it.

I did consider trying to modify one side of the mount (top side or bottom side) to let the axle fall away from the air bag (or the air bag from the frame) to allow full droop. But I would've wanted to recapture it when the axle came back up so it couldn't "squirt" out, and I never had a great idea on how to do that. And see the paragraph above about it not being that big an issue for me.

I know that there are air springs that allow a lot more travel than the Firestones I had. There are competition rock buggies with insane travel using air springs (geometry helps them too of course). So I'm sure there are ways to get whatever you want to get. But it likely won't be as simple as ordering bolt-on air helper springs and following the directions.

I think if it was me I'd skip the air bags and go sort of middle of the road with the leafs. Maybe not as stiff as would be ideal for carrying the biggest loads I envisioned, but not as soft as I'd consider ideal for trail running. I'm sure you could come up with something better with enough work. But I'd be tempted to keep the work down and just strike what I hope would be a reasonable compromise.

That said, as I talked about in my trip report from Ouray last year, my '71 Bronco was one of the slowest vehicles on the trails, and ride quality was the limiting factor on my speed most of the time. Any 3/4 ton truck will be handicapped in that way even more than my Bronco. The minimalist approach I said I might favor would simply accept that limitation. I still think that's what I would lean toward. But I certainly understand the desire to improve on it.

Bob - Thanks for the clarification. I'll probably continue to think about this and maybe even search for an air solution that'll give more travel. But, doing anything about it will be at the end of the project so I'll know more about the weight, the ride, etc. However, if anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

As for rebuilding the brake calipers, I don't think so. That's 'cause I can't find a complete rebuild kit with pistons, and if I did it looks like it would be 2/3 the cost of a reman'd one.

Raybestos' catalog doesn't show a kit for a '95 F350 with pistons, just the seals, bushings, bolts, and springs. But Crown Automotive has a kit, albeit not for a '95 F350, that does include the pistons, and it is $23 at Summit. On the other hand, Summit has a Cardone reman'd caliper for $31.

Note: I'm not saying I'm going with a Cardone unit, but even a reman'd Raybestos is only $44, so that's probably what I'll go for. However, Raybestos has two:

• Raybestos Rust Prevention Technology Brake Calipers FRC10521C: $43.99 + shipping at Summit

• Raybestos Professional Grade Brake Calipers FRC10521: $44.99 at Summit, + shipping

So, why not save $2 on two calipers and get the plated ones?

As for why I need pistons, these appear to be aluminum and are supposed to have a steel head. But, the ones from the first caliper I looked at are in poor shape.

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Bob - Thanks for the clarification. I'll probably continue to think about this and maybe even search for an air solution that'll give more travel. But, doing anything about it will be at the end of the project so I'll know more about the weight, the ride, etc. However, if anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

As for rebuilding the brake calipers, I don't think so. That's 'cause I can't find a complete rebuild kit with pistons, and if I did it looks like it would be 2/3 the cost of a reman'd one.

Raybestos' catalog doesn't show a kit for a '95 F350 with pistons, just the seals, bushings, bolts, and springs. But Crown Automotive has a kit, albeit not for a '95 F350, that does include the pistons, and it is $23 at Summit. On the other hand, Summit has a Cardone reman'd caliper for $31.

Note: I'm not saying I'm going with a Cardone unit, but even a reman'd Raybestos is only $44, so that's probably what I'll go for. However, Raybestos has two:

• Raybestos Rust Prevention Technology Brake Calipers FRC10521C: $43.99 + shipping at Summit

• Raybestos Professional Grade Brake Calipers FRC10521: $44.99 at Summit, + shipping

So, why not save $2 on two calipers and get the plated ones?

As for why I need pistons, these appear to be aluminum and are supposed to have a steel head. But, the ones from the first caliper I looked at are in poor shape.

Aluminum is a stupid material for pistons with its heat coefficient and propensity for corrosion.

Only the bore needs to be good for them to seal

Phenolic, or titainium with a ceramic cap are good.

Even stainless would be way better than aluminum as far as heat transfer to the fluid goes.

Raybestos PG are simple but ok parts made to a price point where the shop can get a healthy markup.

If you're buying all these parts maybe you should look at Rockauto?

As long as you don't get hammered with shipping from six different warehouse locations there is money to be saved by purchasing orphaned parts.