Big Blue's Transformation

[ArdWrknTrk]

Yes, I think it is promising, for sure. And I agree that it makes sense to make the tracks to take the same mounts. I sure would. So I hope that the kickstands will fit.

If so, I'm thinking of placing pieces of aluminum channel like so and having three kickstands/side: one ahead of the stake pocket and two behind. And using two of the "A" clamps/side, one in the front and one at the back to give the right spacing between the rails.

So the kickstands would provide most of the vertical support, although the foam rubber and "A" clamps would help, and the "A" clamps provide positive side/side location.

I'm thinking the 'kickstands' aren't contributing much of anything except torsional rigidity.

They don't hold the rail up, nor locate it side to side. They're just keeping it from twisting under.

[Gary Lewis]

I'm thinking the 'kickstands' aren't contributing much of anything except torsional rigidity.

They don't hold the rail up, nor locate it side to side. They're just keeping it from twisting under.

I agree.

But I'm confused with the instructions from Pace Edwards. They say "Rotate the assembly so that the kickstand will push as squarely as possible against the bed wall (FIG. 6B), then tighten the wing nut." But I think the leg of the kickstand has to be angled downward for this to work well, and ideally pretty significantly downward. Then there will be an upward vector as you tighten the bolt.

Assuming the "A" clamps and the rails themselves are rigid, the rotation point will be in the inner lip of the bed, just above the toe of the "A" clamp. And given how close the toe of the clamp will be to the bend where the lip heads down, I'm guessing the rotation point will be at that bend. So you want the rail to be close to level when you've tightened the "A" clamps and the kickstand just prevents any rotation.

What am I missing?

[Gary Lewis]

I agree.

But I'm confused with the instructions from Pace Edwards. They say "Rotate the assembly so that the kickstand will push as squarely as possible against the bed wall (FIG. 6B), then tighten the wing nut." But I think the leg of the kickstand has to be angled downward for this to work well, and ideally pretty significantly downward. Then there will be an upward vector as you tighten the bolt.

Assuming the "A" clamps and the rails themselves are rigid, the rotation point will be in the inner lip of the bed, just above the toe of the "A" clamp. And given how close the toe of the clamp will be to the bend where the lip heads down, I'm guessing the rotation point will be at that bend. So you want the rail to be close to level when you've tightened the "A" clamps and the kickstand just prevents any rotation.

What am I missing?

Ok, more thinking.

If the pivot point is the lip above the clamp then the foot of the kickstand can be at any angle from horizontal to straight down and it will work. The difference is in what direction the force is on the bedside.

If the foot is horizontal then all of the force is trying to push the bed sideways, which is the dimension in which it is weakest. But the more the foot is angled down the more the force is vertical, which is where the bed is strongest.

So I'm thinking that I just need an aluminum angle to capture the foot and spread the load.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I agree.

But I'm confused with the instructions from Pace Edwards. They say "Rotate the assembly so that the kickstand will push as squarely as possible against the bed wall (FIG. 6B), then tighten the wing nut." But I think the leg of the kickstand has to be angled downward for this to work well, and ideally pretty significantly downward. Then there will be an upward vector as you tighten the bolt.

Assuming the "A" clamps and the rails themselves are rigid, the rotation point will be in the inner lip of the bed, just above the toe of the "A" clamp. And given how close the toe of the clamp will be to the bend where the lip heads down, I'm guessing the rotation point will be at that bend. So you want the rail to be close to level when you've tightened the "A" clamps and the kickstand just prevents any rotation.

What am I missing?

I think they want the ball and socket pad at the end of the clamp screw to be as in-line as possible.

Regardless the screws orientation.

I don't have the extrusion in my hands, but I have worked with a lot of pictures frames, store fronts, various jigs and tracks.

Aluminum isn't that stiff.

I agree that since the track is not attached anywhere but the clamps it is going to flex at that hem formed by the lip of the bed.

I'm quite sure the reason Pace Edwards have minimal attachment is so the whole thing kinda floats and is self adjusting.

If you have only a clamp at each end it is easy for the rail to keep straight.

[Gary Lewis]

I think they want the ball and socket pad at the end of the clamp screw to be as in-line as possible.

Regardless the screws orientation.

I don't have the extrusion in my hands, but I have worked with a lot of pictures frames, store fronts, various jigs and tracks.

Aluminum isn't that stiff.

I agree that since the track is not attached anywhere but the clamps it is going to flex at that hem formed by the lip of the bed.

I'm quite sure the reason Pace Edwards have minimal attachment is so the whole thing kinda floats and is self adjusting.

If you have only a clamp at each end it is easy for the rail to keep straight.

Yes, to all of the above.

Just talked to Tony at PE, and right off the bat he suggested the kickstand approach - but only one on each side at the tailgate end. However, after I explained my desire for overkill we settled with two kickstands and two shim clamps per side.

He has some hoops to jump through but hopes to get those items out today.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, to all of the above.

Just talked to Tony at PE, and right off the bat he suggested the kickstand approach - but only one on each side at the tailgate end. However, after I explained my desire for overkill we settled with two kickstands and two shim clamps per side.

He has some hoops to jump through but hopes to get those items out today.

Got the brackets on order - 2 more of the clamps and 4 of the kickstands. Don't know when they'll be here, but they are on their way.

Then I pulled the rails and installed the 1/2 x 1/4" closed-cell foam strip and then reinstalled the rails. The foam was enough that the rails now sit essentially level even with the heavy canister hanging on them, so that's a step in the right direction.

But of course that raised the canister a bit so I shimmed the toolbox up 1/4" on the driver's side and 1/8" on the passenger's side. And now when the rails are level the canister will slide under the lip of the toolbox with 1/8" to spare.

Then I slid some brackets on to see how the spacing would go. There's a span of 66" so I'm planning to put one of the "A" brackets up against the canister, meaning just ahead of the c-clamp in this pic. Then it is 22" back to the stake pocket, where one kickstand will go. Then another 22" back to where the next bracket is shown, which will be a kickstand. Finally the 2nd "A" bracket will go the last 22" back, where it is shown.

But speaking of the "A" brackets, they are not going to be easy to place. That's because the rail blocks access to the hole I need to drill through the inside lip of the bed. So I'll have to take a number of measurements, pull the rails off again, and then drill the holes. But luckily the brackets are in two pieces so I can bolt the L piece to the bed and then install the rails, slide on the part that attaches to the L, and bolt them together. And that's where I'll start tomorrow - drilling the holes.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Got the brackets on order - 2 more of the clamps and 4 of the kickstands. Don't know when they'll be here, but they are on their way.

Then I pulled the rails and installed the 1/2 x 1/4" closed-cell foam strip and then reinstalled the rails. The foam was enough that the rails now sit essentially level even with the heavy canister hanging on them, so that's a step in the right direction.

But of course that raised the canister a bit so I shimmed the toolbox up 1/4" on the driver's side and 1/8" on the passenger's side. And now when the rails are level the canister will slide under the lip of the toolbox with 1/8" to spare.

Then I slid some brackets on to see how the spacing would go. There's a span of 66" so I'm planning to put one of the "A" brackets up against the canister, meaning just ahead of the c-clamp in this pic. Then it is 22" back to the stake pocket, where one kickstand will go. Then another 22" back to where the next bracket is shown, which will be a kickstand. Finally the 2nd "A" bracket will go the last 22" back, where it is shown.

But speaking of the "A" brackets, they are not going to be easy to place. That's because the rail blocks access to the hole I need to drill through the inside lip of the bed. So I'll have to take a number of measurements, pull the rails off again, and then drill the holes. But luckily the brackets are in two pieces so I can bolt the L piece to the bed and then install the rails, slide on the part that attaches to the L, and bolt them together. And that's where I'll start tomorrow - drilling the holes.

Maybe you can temporarily fixture the bracket to the bed lip with cyanoacrylate, and slip the rails out to the rear?

Then drill, tap, bolt or whatever?

I don't really know how they lock to the brackets.

Only how the extrusions seem to interlock from the section view.

I assume there's a set screw or something that keeps them from shifting.

[Gary Lewis]

Maybe you can temporarily fixture the bracket to the bed lip with cyanoacrylate, and slip the rails out to the rear?

Then drill, tap, bolt or whatever?

I don't really know how they lock to the brackets.

Only how the extrusions seem to interlock from the section view.

I assume there's a set screw or something that keeps them from shifting.

Jim - Good idea! I think that'll work, assuming I don't glue myself in there at the same time.

As for locking, they don't - at the moment. The bolt that is supplied doesn't come through far enough to lock it to the rail. But I have plenty of 1/4-20 bolts and plan to put just the right length ones in so the "A" brackets, shown on the left, are locked to the rails.

And, by the way, the kickstands I'm getting supposedly use the left half of the bracket on the right.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - Good idea! I think that'll work, assuming I don't glue myself in there at the same time.

As for locking, they don't - at the moment. The bolt that is supplied doesn't come through far enough to lock it to the rail. But I have plenty of 1/4-20 bolts and plan to put just the right length ones in so the "A" brackets, shown on the left, are locked to the rails.

And, by the way, the kickstands I'm getting supposedly use the left half of the bracket on the right.

Yes, you can see how they fit through the bottom of the bracket on the instruction page.

Figure 6A for the alternate bracket.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, you can see how they fit through the bottom of the bracket on the instruction page.

Figure 6A for the alternate bracket.

Actually, there's a page just for the kickstand that the tech sent me. I like the opening sentence: "Kickstands are for leveling and providing support for the rails." Just exactly what I needed. So the tech threw in a pair of them as well as a pair of the "A" brackets. I felt I needed two more kickstands so paid for another pair.

I'm guessing that I won't like the extra bolt length sticking out so will probably shorten things once I find out how long they need to be.