Big Blue's Transformation

[Gary Lewis]

I'm assuming you're going to need a lock nut and fender washer to spread the load on the back side of the bed lip.

If you have to mill the clamp extrusion thinner you can even get undercut flat head (wafer head) screws.

12-24 self tapping is pretty common for commercial door hinges set in metal jambs.

https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Thread-Cutting-Undercut-Phillips/dp/B00GX0NBG6/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=12-24+undercut+flat+head+screw&qid=1619960381&s=industrial&sr=1-6

I know you'd never need 25. But I don't know what the hardware store is like in Podunk..

Yes, I'll need to spread the load on the back side of the lip. But instead of fender washers, which may be too tall to hide, I might use some of that aluminum I have as I can make the plate to fit and they'll have plenty of meat.

I'd not heard of "wafer head" screws, but Fastenal has them in 1/4-20, as do plenty of others, so that's a good option. Thanks.

But even the button-head screws I've used in many places on the truck may have a lower profile than a hex headed bolt. I'll have to see.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Yes, I'll need to spread the load on the back side of the lip. But instead of fender washers, which may be too tall to hide, I might use some of that aluminum I have as I can make the plate to fit and they'll have plenty of meat.

I'd not heard of "wafer head" screws, but Fastenal has them in 1/4-20, as do plenty of others, so that's a good option. Thanks.

But even the button-head screws I've used in many places on the truck may have a lower profile than a hex headed bolt. I'll have to see.

Yeah, these are not the same as sidewalk or elevator bolts.

(Maybe inverse wafer head?)

I edited in an Amazon link.

1/4-20 is far too big in my opinion.

12-24 is too big, but 10-24 (3/16") is not common in a undercut screw, whereas firedoors and the hardware to hang them are everywhere.

Not sure why you couldn't use a fender washer for its intended purpose?

The turndown on my brick bedsides is at least 1 1/2.

If you tap an aluminum block you could thread right into it.

 

[Gary Lewis]

Yeah, these are not the same as sidewalk or elevator bolts.

(Maybe inverse wafer head?)

I edited in an Amazon link.

1/4-20 is far too big in my opinion.

12-24 is too big, but 10-24 (3/16") is not common in a undercut screw, whereas firedoors and the hardware to hang them are everywhere.

Not sure why you couldn't use a fender washer for its intended purpose?

The turndown on my brick bedsides is at least 1 1/2.

If you tap an aluminum block you could thread right into it.

Ahhh! I see, an 82 degree countersunk head. Ok, that makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Those might be just right with their 1/2" length as they'll just have to pass through the lip and then into the washer/nut combo or aluminum plate.

As for a fender washer, I don't know how high up the lip the bolt hole will be, and I was thinking a 1/4" fender washer might hang down. But, as you said, I can thread an aluminum plate and use it as the washer and nut.

But on the bolt size, remember that these rails may have a rack and a tent mounted on them. So I need lots of clamping force. As you can see, the track in the rail is right on the inner edge of the bed, so if the 1/4" foam tape I'm placing under there compresses just right it'll take a lot of the weight. But I still need the clamps to bear part of the load, which is why I want to have at least three per side instead of the two that Pace Edwards planned for. And maybe four/side.

So, how does that figure into the sizing of the bolt/screw?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Ahhh! I see, an 82 degree countersunk head. Ok, that makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Those might be just right with their 1/2" length as they'll just have to pass through the lip and then into the washer/nut combo or aluminum plate.

As for a fender washer, I don't know how high up the lip the bolt hole will be, and I was thinking a 1/4" fender washer might hang down. But, as you said, I can thread an aluminum plate and use it as the washer and nut.

But on the bolt size, remember that these rails may have a rack and a tent mounted on them. So I need lots of clamping force. As you can see, the track in the rail is right on the inner edge of the bed, so if the 1/4" foam tape I'm placing under there compresses just right it'll take a lot of the weight. But I still need the clamps to bear part of the load, which is why I want to have at least three per side instead of the two that Pace Edwards planned for. And maybe four/side.

So, how does that figure into the sizing of the bolt/screw?

I went to Pace Edwards to see the instructions for the full metal jackrabbit with explorer rails.. https://www.pace-edwards.com/FMJackrabbit-Explorer

But when I scroll down they have the switchblade instructions linked....

You can see that with the explorer rails there are "kickstands" that need to squarely bear against ribs inside the bed to keep the track from rotating.

While the whole setup is very appealing to you, the idea of knuckle jointed extruded clamps with cross bolts, kickstand braces, key fob that could be lost or dead required to get in, etc, etc..

It seems far too finicky for my world.

I sincerely doubt the aluminum explorer extrusions will remain straight if loaded off road.

And I feel sure your droop problem won't go away without the struts shown in the above linked instructions.

Putting the mounts at the stake pockets and perhaps welding a threaded plate there to offer actual support both vertically and against rotation would have been an option before the bedliner application.

I'm not sure what your best course of action is now, but I don't think just the lip of the bed is near stiff enough for what you want.

Regardless the size of any backer, because the backer is not contributing to resisting an outward push on the bed lip.

If it wasn't bedlined I might suggest welding a piece of angle between each stake pocket, and having the 'back' plug welded to the bed lip in a few places.

At least this would offer some hidden support to the rotation you are experiencing.

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

...... how does that figure into the sizing of the bolt/screw?

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n95843/Bed_Rail_At_An_Angle.jpg

It's a #8 self tapping screw they show in example 'D', is it not?

The track should be bearing continuously on the bed rail, but obviously it isn't, really.

Using their articulated clamps, how much shear do you think is resisted?

It is just pulling the rail down onto the corner of the bed.

Also note their warning not to exceed 10ft lbs (120 inch lbs) on the clamp bolts..

This thing would be fine for taking your carbon fiber mountain bike to the trailhead, or a 20# kayak to the river.

[Gary Lewis]

I went to Pace Edwards to see the instructions for the full metal jackrabbit with explorer rails.. https://www.pace-edwards.com/FMJackrabbit-Explorer

But when I scroll down they have the switchblade instructions linked....

You can see that with the explorer rails there are "kickstands" that need to squarely bear against ribs inside the bed to keep the track from rotating.

While the whole setup is very appealing to you, the idea of knuckle jointed extruded clamps with cross bolts, kickstand braces, key fob that could be lost or dead required to get in, etc, etc..

It seems far too finicky for my world.

I sincerely doubt the aluminum explorer extrusions will remain straight if loaded off road.

And I feel sure your droop problem won't go away without the struts shown in the above linked instructions.

Putting the mounts at the stake pockets and perhaps welding a threaded plate there to offer actual support both vertically and against rotation would have been an option before the bedliner application.

I'm not sure what your best course of action is now, but I don't think just the lip of the bed is near stiff enough for what you want.

Regardless the size of any backer, because the backer is not contributing to resisting an outward push on the bed lip.

If it wasn't bedlined I might suggest welding a piece of angle between each stake pocket, and having the 'back' plug welded to the bed lip in a few places.

At least this would offer some hidden support to the rotation you are experiencing.

Jim - That's a good find on the kick stands. I'm including the instructions on them, below. And I'm going to have a conversation with Tech Support at Pace Edwards tomorrow to see how to best solve the problem.

In the interim I'm going to go out in a few minutes and see what the options are. You have a point about the stake pockets as they are a nicely reinforced point, so maybe I can use them. I'll take some pics and post here in a bit.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - That's a good find on the kick stands. I'm including the instructions on them, below. And I'm going to have a conversation with Tech Support at Pace Edwards tomorrow to see how to best solve the problem.

In the interim I'm going to go out in a few minutes and see what the options are. You have a point about the stake pockets as they are a nicely reinforced point, so maybe I can use them. I'll take some pics and post here in a bit.

I'm really surprised with all the discussion you've already had with them (just getting the cover ordered) that they haven't set you up with the proper hardware you need for your installation.

There are only a few variables, even with your "unique" installation.

I certainly don't know all of their hardware options.

I guess I was fortunate to stumble across the kickstands while just trying to get a handle on the installation.

I do think the stake pocket would be a better brace than the kickstands, if that's possible.

[Gary Lewis]

I'm really surprised with all the discussion you've already had with them (just getting the cover ordered) that they haven't set you up with the proper hardware you need for your installation.

There are only a few variables, even with your "unique" installation.

I certainly don't know all of their hardware options.

I guess I was fortunate to stumble across the kickstands while just trying to get a handle on the installation.

I do think the stake pocket would be a better brace than the kickstands, if that's possible.

Yes, I specifically told the guy what the truck is and we talked about the mods I'd have to make to the rails to get it on. So I'm surprised I don't have the right hardware to install them on that truck properly.

I've done a lot of looking and testing, and here are some thoughts from that, with the pics and discussions below. It looks to me like the 1/4" closed-cell foam tape will help as I laid some in and could tell the difference. And the "A" clamps will work, but it would take several of them to get a lot of support. However, while the kickstands would provide the most support I don't think the bedside is solid enough for them and I'd want to put some extra reinforcement on there, but that is assuming that the kickstands work with the rails used with the Bed Locker.

But I'd like everyone's thoughts on this before I discuss it with Pace Edwards tomorrow.

So now for the pics and discussion. Below is a pic of one of the "A" clamps in place with the rails leveled. You can see that the clamp is tilting slightly away from the lip of the bed at the top, so the clamp would actually try to raise the inside edge of the rail a bit when tightened down. And the bolt will be towards the top of the lip, which is obviously where it is more rigid and will provide more support.

And with the clamps at the back of the bed the rail-to-rail distance is 1/16" too narrow, but I think they would probably spread out about that much if the clamps were bolted down. So I don't think I'll have to thin the clamps any. Plus the head of the 1/4-20 bolts they sent fits nicely in the gap between the top of the clamp and the rail, so I won't have to countersink a screw.

Also, the space between the inside edge of the bed and the underside of the rail is .154", so the 1/4" closed-cell foam weather strip I have will provide some support to the rail. Not a lot, but some.

The pic below shows the inside of the bed, with the notable things to see being where the stake pocket is and that there are reinforcement ribs on the inside of the bed. So I could use a kickstand on the stake pocket, but I don't think the inside of the bed is really up to having the kickstands directly against it. However I'm thinking I could hold some of the aluminum channel I have to the bedside with nutserts and bolts and have the kickstands rest on them. (I'd trim the channel down so it doesn't really look like just channel, and I'd powder coat them black.)

[ArdWrknTrk]

Yes, I specifically told the guy what the truck is and we talked about the mods I'd have to make to the rails to get it on. So I'm surprised I don't have the right hardware to install them on that truck properly.

I've done a lot of looking and testing, and here are some thoughts from that, with the pics and discussions below. It looks to me like the 1/4" closed-cell foam tape will help as I laid some in and could tell the difference. And the "A" clamps will work, but it would take several of them to get a lot of support. However, while the kickstands would provide the most support I don't think the bedside is solid enough for them and I'd want to put some extra reinforcement on there, but that is assuming that the kickstands work with the rails used with the Bed Locker.

But I'd like everyone's thoughts on this before I discuss it with Pace Edwards tomorrow.

So now for the pics and discussion. Below is a pic of one of the "A" clamps in place with the rails leveled. You can see that the clamp is tilting slightly away from the lip of the bed at the top, so the clamp would actually try to raise the inside edge of the rail a bit when tightened down. And the bolt will be towards the top of the lip, which is obviously where it is more rigid and will provide more support.

And with the clamps at the back of the bed the rail-to-rail distance is 1/16" too narrow, but I think they would probably spread out about that much if the clamps were bolted down. So I don't think I'll have to thin the clamps any. Plus the head of the 1/4-20 bolts they sent fits nicely in the gap between the top of the clamp and the rail, so I won't have to countersink a screw.

Also, the space between the inside edge of the bed and the underside of the rail is .154", so the 1/4" closed-cell foam weather strip I have will provide some support to the rail. Not a lot, but some.

The pic below shows the inside of the bed, with the notable things to see being where the stake pocket is and that there are reinforcement ribs on the inside of the bed. So I could use a kickstand on the stake pocket, but I don't think the inside of the bed is really up to having the kickstands directly against it. However I'm thinking I could hold some of the aluminum channel I have to the bedside with nutserts and bolts and have the kickstands rest on them. (I'd trim the channel down so it doesn't really look like just channel, and I'd powder coat them black.)

Well, that's promising! 🙂

I can't imagine the company would have an extrusion die made that does not work with all their existing mounting clamps, brackets and stays.

But from the angle you've shown it is difficult to see beyond where the rail is cutaway for access to the stop bolt.

[Gary Lewis]

Well, that's promising! 🙂

I can't imagine the company would have an extrusion die made that does not work with all their existing mounting clamps, brackets and stays.

But from the angle you've shown it is difficult to see beyond where the rail is cutaway for access to the stop bolt.

Yes, I think it is promising, for sure. And I agree that it makes sense to make the tracks to take the same mounts. I sure would. So I hope that the kickstands will fit.

If so, I'm thinking of placing pieces of aluminum channel like so and having three kickstands/side: one ahead of the stake pocket and two behind. And using two of the "A" clamps/side, one in the front and one at the back to give the right spacing between the rails.

So the kickstands would provide most of the vertical support, although the foam rubber and "A" clamps would help, and the "A" clamps provide positive side/side location.