Big Blue's Transformation

[ArdWrknTrk]

I sure wish I had a new flex circuit, so I could change that over while the cluster is out.

Do they make new ones for 87+?

If looking for used, I am making a jy run next week so can check some out if needed.

They don't seem to Scott.

And that's a very kind offer.

I have the numbers as saved searches on eBay, with phone alerts on.

But that's just ice fishing.

[kramttocs]

Nope, the resistance shouldn't have an effect because the input voltage range is 7 - 16 volts.

As for not running out, you can stop when you think you have the right amount in the tank and use that to make it read E. Just don't forget to hit Save. DAHIK how easy it is to forget that step.

Oh yes, I got strange results when I turned the key Off, turned the switch to what ever setting I wanted to learn, and then turned the key back to On. But leaving the key On and turning the switch to the setting to learn worked.

As for 13 MPG, I'm thrilled. But I'm not going to go to the bank with it. And yes, I was driving conservatively.

On the speed control, I really would like to get it working correctly as that makes the long drives much more pleasant. I know it can be done as Dad's truck's speed control worked superbly. But I don't know where the issue is. It acts like it is way too sensitive. I put my foot on the pedal and didn't let it drop the throttle as much as it wanted to, and that helped a bunch. So I'm thinking that if I can't find a module that works correctly I may play with either a capacitor in the electronics or the equivalent in the linkage.

Just saw this post -13mpg! That's incredible. Anywhere close to that is impressive.

Jim - happy to. If you do want me to, just shoot me the details or start a thread in the Want section I can reference while in the yard.

[Gary Lewis]

Just saw this post -13mpg! That's incredible. Anywhere close to that is impressive.

Jim - happy to. If you do want me to, just shoot me the details or start a thread in the Want section I can reference while in the yard.

Bob - I agree it isn't good to consistently run the tank dry, although I didn't let the in-tank pump spin long at all 'cause I was watching it like a hawk and flipped the switch immediately when the bucking started. And it picked up almost instantaneously. But I don't plan to do that on a consistent basis. However, I do want to know roughly where they run dry so I don't do that.

And I certainly remember what you said about your tanks. I was thinking about that yesterday as I got very different readings from my tanks. So to answer your question again after more experience, if you want the gauge to read correctly for two very different tanks then I think you'll have to have two Meter Match units, each programmed for the tank it is serving.

And given what I saw yesterday, I may re-think the Arduino. It would be easy to put it ahead of the tank switch and have it select the proper table depending on which tank/sender is selected, and then drive the gauge appropriately. But, in truth I can probably live with what I have. Or just buy another Meter Match and put both ahead of the switch, powered off the switch.

Jim - I think you have a good plan. But due to some variances, like in the resistance of the senders or the shape of the tanks, don't expect complete accuracy. In my case the rear tank should run out soon after the needle hits E, and the front tank went easily 30 miles after it got to E. So there must be ~3 gallons still in the front tank at E.

Scott - You probably had the winds we had yesterday, which were strong out of the south. So the 10.22 MPG wasn't too surprising as most of it was directly into the wind. But it certainly would have been better if I'd been running the throttle instead of the speed control doing it. However, the 13.19 was all with the wind and I was running the throttle, and that made a huge difference. So I don't think there's much more to be had on MPG until I go with EFI. And then I do think we'll see a gain as the AFR yesterday was frequently below 14, like 12 or so. But the EFI should put it on 14 and keep it there.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - I agree it isn't good to consistently run the tank dry, although I didn't let the in-tank pump spin long at all 'cause I was watching it like a hawk and flipped the switch immediately when the bucking started. And it picked up almost instantaneously. But I don't plan to do that on a consistent basis. However, I do want to know roughly where they run dry so I don't do that.

And I certainly remember what you said about your tanks. I was thinking about that yesterday as I got very different readings from my tanks. So to answer your question again after more experience, if you want the gauge to read correctly for two very different tanks then I think you'll have to have two Meter Match units, each programmed for the tank it is serving.

And given what I saw yesterday, I may re-think the Arduino. It would be easy to put it ahead of the tank switch and have it select the proper table depending on which tank/sender is selected, and then drive the gauge appropriately. But, in truth I can probably live with what I have. Or just buy another Meter Match and put both ahead of the switch, powered off the switch.

Jim - I think you have a good plan. But due to some variances, like in the resistance of the senders or the shape of the tanks, don't expect complete accuracy. In my case the rear tank should run out soon after the needle hits E, and the front tank went easily 30 miles after it got to E. So there must be ~3 gallons still in the front tank at E.

Scott - You probably had the winds we had yesterday, which were strong out of the south. So the 10.22 MPG wasn't too surprising as most of it was directly into the wind. But it certainly would have been better if I'd been running the throttle instead of the speed control doing it. However, the 13.19 was all with the wind and I was running the throttle, and that made a huge difference. So I don't think there's much more to be had on MPG until I go with EFI. And then I do think we'll see a gain as the AFR yesterday was frequently below 14, like 12 or so. But the EFI should put it on 14 and keep it there.

SORRY FOR THE LOOOOONG POST, but....

I've been researching the speed control issue. Fortunately there's a nice website that has both the FSM section on that awa a TSB.

So let me set out what has been happening and my conclusions and y'all tell me if I'm all wet:

• With the original transducer, servo, and electronics module the system worked but surged, even after lubing the speedo cables.

• I changed out the transducer with no change whatsoever, so the transducers are good

• I changed out the servo and the system didn't work at all so that servo is bad

• I changed out the module and the surge seems less, but there's a ~6 MPH pickup when you hit Set or Accelerate that isn't acceptable. So I think that module is bad.

In reading the FSM section there is this page for "Speed continually changes up and down."

That seems a good place to start, and the implication of what I see there is that I may have problems in circuits 147 - 149, which are the potentiometer circuits that tell the electronics module what the servo is doing. So I'll certainly check those out.

But, if all else fails, I think I see a way to smooth things. The instructions say:

Start the engine, and verify servo vacuum from engine exceeds 2.5 inches of Hg (1.22psi). With the servo disconnected from the amplifier, connect the orange-yellow hash lead (wire 144) of the servo to the battery positive terminal. Connect the white-pink hash lead (wire 146) of the servo to ground, and momentarily touch the gray-black hash lead (wire 145) of the servo to ground. The servo throttle actuator should tighten the bead chain (or actuator cable) and open the throttle. The throttle should hold in that position or slowly release the tension. When the white-pink hash wire is removed from ground, the servo should release the bead chain (or actuator cable) tension immediately.

And they give this diagram. I've circled the Vent and Vacuum connections. From the above it looks to me like Circuit 144 has power on it and the servo pulses Vent and Vacuum to slow down or speed up. (Vent probably is grounded the majority of the time and the ground is removed to slow down, and Vacuum is only grounded to speed up.) So, I'm thinking that I could add capacitors to both Vent and Vacuum to smooth things out if everything else checks out.

THOUGHTS?

 

[Nothing Special]

.... The only problem with running my tanks dry is that it takes so much cranking to prime the system.

I usually notice the bog and flip the switch before the truck can roll to a stop, so it is not much of a problem and of course there is no electric pump to overheat.

I do keep one of those big syringes in the box so at least I can prime the carb if I do get stuck in a spot (like the coffee shop drive thru, when my pump arm pivot wore through)....

My Bronco has a fuel pressure gauge. So if I'm paying close enough attention as I get to empty I'll see the fuel pressure start to bounce, and then drop to zero, while the engine is still running well. Then I can switch tanks easily, with no drama.

But I rarely get that lucky, especially since on my main tank (the one I run dry most often) I get about 75 - 100 miles after it hits "E" . So usually I'm flipping the switch when the engine starts to stumble. It'll die completely, and if I'm on the freeway it'll coast down to about 45 mph before it restarts. That can provide a bit of excitement depending on the traffic . Driving around town it'll also pretty much always catch before it coasts to a stop.

My '97 pickup will catch immediately when I switch tanks after one runs dry. In-tank electric fuel pumps'll do that. But as I noted earlier, I try not to do that to my pumps too often (but it still happens).

[ArdWrknTrk]

.... The only problem with running my tanks dry is that it takes so much cranking to prime the system.

I usually notice the bog and flip the switch before the truck can roll to a stop, so it is not much of a problem and of course there is no electric pump to overheat.

I do keep one of those big syringes in the box so at least I can prime the carb if I do get stuck in a spot (like the coffee shop drive thru, when my pump arm pivot wore through)....

My Bronco has a fuel pressure gauge. So if I'm paying close enough attention as I get to empty I'll see the fuel pressure start to bounce, and then drop to zero, while the engine is still running well. Then I can switch tanks easily, with no drama.

But I rarely get that lucky, especially since on my main tank (the one I run dry most often) I get about 75 - 100 miles after it hits "E" . So usually I'm flipping the switch when the engine starts to stumble. It'll die completely, and if I'm on the freeway it'll coast down to about 45 mph before it restarts. That can provide a bit of excitement depending on the traffic . Driving around town it'll also pretty much always catch before it coasts to a stop.

My '97 pickup will catch immediately when I switch tanks after one runs dry. In-tank electric fuel pumps'll do that. But as I noted earlier, I try not to do that to my pumps too often (but it still happens).

Bob, I make a habit of filling up and resetting the trip meter.

I have a good idea how far i can go on a tank and usually switch at 150 and 'get ready' at 300.

But I'm looking forward to this MeterMatch!

I think the sender in my side tank shows better (but it's hard to tell when full is empty and empty is 7/16)

I'm reading through the instructions in preparation now.

And I have to remember 'Save' as Gary has pointed out numerous times.

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

SORRY FOR THE LOOOOONG POST, but....

I've been researching the speed control issue. Fortunately there's a nice website that has both the FSM section on that awa a TSB.

So let me set out what has been happening and my conclusions and y'all tell me if I'm all wet:

• With the original transducer, servo, and electronics module the system worked but surged, even after lubing the speedo cables.

• I changed out the transducer with no change whatsoever, so the transducers are good

• I changed out the servo and the system didn't work at all so that servo is bad

• I changed out the module and the surge seems less, but there's a ~6 MPH pickup when you hit Set or Accelerate that isn't acceptable. So I think that module is bad.

In reading the FSM section there is this page for "Speed continually changes up and down."

That seems a good place to start, and the implication of what I see there is that I may have problems in circuits 147 - 149, which are the potentiometer circuits that tell the electronics module what the servo is doing. So I'll certainly check those out.

But, if all else fails, I think I see a way to smooth things. The instructions say:

Start the engine, and verify servo vacuum from engine exceeds 2.5 inches of Hg (1.22psi). With the servo disconnected from the amplifier, connect the orange-yellow hash lead (wire 144) of the servo to the battery positive terminal. Connect the white-pink hash lead (wire 146) of the servo to ground, and momentarily touch the gray-black hash lead (wire 145) of the servo to ground. The servo throttle actuator should tighten the bead chain (or actuator cable) and open the throttle. The throttle should hold in that position or slowly release the tension. When the white-pink hash wire is removed from ground, the servo should release the bead chain (or actuator cable) tension immediately.

And they give this diagram. I've circled the Vent and Vacuum connections. From the above it looks to me like Circuit 144 has power on it and the servo pulses Vent and Vacuum to slow down or speed up. (Vent probably is grounded the majority of the time and the ground is removed to slow down, and Vacuum is only grounded to speed up.) So, I'm thinking that I could add capacitors to both Vent and Vacuum to smooth things out if everything else checks out.

THOUGHTS?

Gary, I'm not sure what a smoothing cap would gain you if the system never had one. ?

The 5 mph jump would seem to me that either the speed control unit is not synched to throttle opening or the speed control is not reading the cable sensor correctly.

The speed is not hunting up and down.

It goes up ~5mph on set and does that pretty consistently, correct?

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, I'm not sure what a smoothing cap would gain you if the system never had one. ?

The 5 mph jump would seem to me that either the speed control unit is not synched to throttle opening or the speed control is not reading the cable sensor correctly.

The speed is not hunting up and down.

It goes up ~5mph on set and does that pretty consistently, correct?

The speed jumps by ~6 MPH when you hit Set/Accelerate. Each and every time you hit it. And, it hunts up and down. Plus, it is aggressive.

But, watch for a new thread on Speed Control Testing. I'm doing that for several reasons:

• Scott has shipped his Rotunda Speed Control tester to me

• I've created a test harness and have checked out 3 servos and learned something of how they work, or don't in the case of the one I put on Big Blue on Wednesday that didn't work

• I pulled one of the electronics modules out of its case and discovered a potentiometer - with no markings, but I'll see what I can figure out

• I'm taking the bad servo apart and will post what I find

As for a smoothing cap, my theory is that the Vent valve is held closed and the Vacuum valve is left closed if you are running steady state. If you start down a hill the Vent valve is allowed to open briefly reduce vacuum to drop the throttle, and if you start up a hill the Vacuum valve is opened briefly to add vacuum to open the throttle.

So if you put a large enough cap on the Vent, when the module removes the ground to allow the valve to open the cap will keep it closed a bit longer. But, as I think about it, when the output of the module goes low to close the Vent valve that will happen immediately unless there's a resistor involved. So I'd need an RC circuit.

Ditto the Vacuum valve. It gets closed by the output of the module going low, so if there's an RC circuit twixt the module and the valve the square pulses will be rounded waves.

I hope I don't have to resort to that, but that's one reason for taking the bad module apart - harvest its connector. That along with the male connector I already have would let me make a plug-in unit with the RC circuits in it. A little Electricity 101 and I can figure out what R's and C's I need 'cause I already know the current.

[ArdWrknTrk]

The speed jumps by ~6 MPH when you hit Set/Accelerate. Each and every time you hit it. And, it hunts up and down. Plus, it is aggressive.

But, watch for a new thread on Speed Control Testing. I'm doing that for several reasons:

• Scott has shipped his Rotunda Speed Control tester to me

• I've created a test harness and have checked out 3 servos and learned something of how they work, or don't in the case of the one I put on Big Blue on Wednesday that didn't work

• I pulled one of the electronics modules out of its case and discovered a potentiometer - with no markings, but I'll see what I can figure out

• I'm taking the bad servo apart and will post what I find

As for a smoothing cap, my theory is that the Vent valve is held closed and the Vacuum valve is left closed if you are running steady state. If you start down a hill the Vent valve is allowed to open briefly reduce vacuum to drop the throttle, and if you start up a hill the Vacuum valve is opened briefly to add vacuum to open the throttle.

So if you put a large enough cap on the Vent, when the module removes the ground to allow the valve to open the cap will keep it closed a bit longer. But, as I think about it, when the output of the module goes low to close the Vent valve that will happen immediately unless there's a resistor involved. So I'd need an RC circuit.

Ditto the Vacuum valve. It gets closed by the output of the module going low, so if there's an RC circuit twixt the module and the valve the square pulses will be rounded waves.

I hope I don't have to resort to that, but that's one reason for taking the bad module apart - harvest its connector. That along with the male connector I already have would let me make a plug-in unit with the RC circuits in it. A little Electricity 101 and I can figure out what R's and C's I need 'cause I already know the current.

It would be real simple if that pot is used for calibration or as a bias control.

Maybe it just needs a shot of tuner cleaner?

[85lebaront2]

Bob - I agree it isn't good to consistently run the tank dry, although I didn't let the in-tank pump spin long at all 'cause I was watching it like a hawk and flipped the switch immediately when the bucking started. And it picked up almost instantaneously. But I don't plan to do that on a consistent basis. However, I do want to know roughly where they run dry so I don't do that.

And I certainly remember what you said about your tanks. I was thinking about that yesterday as I got very different readings from my tanks. So to answer your question again after more experience, if you want the gauge to read correctly for two very different tanks then I think you'll have to have two Meter Match units, each programmed for the tank it is serving.

And given what I saw yesterday, I may re-think the Arduino. It would be easy to put it ahead of the tank switch and have it select the proper table depending on which tank/sender is selected, and then drive the gauge appropriately. But, in truth I can probably live with what I have. Or just buy another Meter Match and put both ahead of the switch, powered off the switch.

Jim - I think you have a good plan. But due to some variances, like in the resistance of the senders or the shape of the tanks, don't expect complete accuracy. In my case the rear tank should run out soon after the needle hits E, and the front tank went easily 30 miles after it got to E. So there must be ~3 gallons still in the front tank at E.

Scott - You probably had the winds we had yesterday, which were strong out of the south. So the 10.22 MPG wasn't too surprising as most of it was directly into the wind. But it certainly would have been better if I'd been running the throttle instead of the speed control doing it. However, the 13.19 was all with the wind and I was running the throttle, and that made a huge difference. So I don't think there's much more to be had on MPG until I go with EFI. And then I do think we'll see a gain as the AFR yesterday was frequently below 14, like 12 or so. But the EFI should put it on 14 and keep it there.

Considering that Darth has gotten as high as 12.5 mpg at 70 mph (on I-70) and weighs 6400 lbs empty, is turning 6 tires an has maybe 8:1 compression on a 147000 mile 460, not bad at all. The 460 wasn't built for economy, it was built to move heavy loads, whether a Lincoln Continental or a truck.