Big Blue's Transformation

[kramttocs]

Yes, it clears the top of the frame fine.

Adding a spacer on the driver's side will rotate the engine clockwise when viewed from the back, as in the picture above. But it will rotate it on the passenger's side mount, which is well above the spot where it hits the frame. So the header should rotate away from the frame.

But, I just realized that I can easily test that theory. I have the nuts where the mounts hit the perches loose, so if I tighten the passenger's side and jack up on the driver's side of the engine I can see if it does indeed rotate like I think it will. In fact, I could slip a 1/4" piece in between the perch and the mount to see exactly how much clearance I'll get.

I actually came up with this plan a couple of years ago 'cause the driver's side header was hitting the perch. I drew it up on CAD and found that it would work. But didn't do it 'cause I decided to pull the truck down for the transformation. However, it looks like the same solution will work for the passenger's side.

Perfect. You said driver side earlier but I was looking at the photo and thinking the passenger's perch.

[Gary Lewis]

Perfect. You said driver side earlier but I was looking at the photo and thinking the passenger's perch.

I'll take that as "Go for it."

I forgot to say that the previous engine sat at a slight angle, low on driver's side, and the 1/4" plate looked like it would be just right to level it up.

I'll give it a try tomorrow, and I have plenty of mounts laying around to measure in order to cut and drill the spacer.

[85lebaront2]

Well, I have a question for everyone, but first have to explain a couple of things.

First, this happened today:

Yup, the tranny had to leave to get the passenger's side header in. But I got it in w/o damaging it, and then put the driver's side one in, which was a piece of cake. However, as you can see below, there's a bit of a problem on the passenger's side header. The gap to the engine spacer is maybe 1/8", but the gap to the frame is maybe .010" - if that.

If needed I can grind a bit on the tranny to get some clearance. But the real issue is the frame. So, borrowing from Baldrick, I have a cunning plan: Put a 1/4" spacer between the driver's side perch and the mount, which will rotate the engine just a bit. I think that will get 1/4" of space from the frame.

Thoughts?

The gap to the clutch housing and spacer will not change except a small amount from heat expansion, the header and engine are securely attached together. The frame to engine is a different matter. Unfortunately you didn't do the fitup before having the headers coated. Someone did a study of "hammer tuning" headers and found that even fairly large dents in them didn't noticeably effect performance (this was done on a dyno). If you had done a fitup with the old block and EFI heads and corrected the interference then had the headers coated no one would probably ever notice.

Keep in mind the engine will rotate clockwise viewed from the rear under torque except in reverse, so normally the header will be moving away from the right side frame rail.

[kramttocs]

Keep in mind the engine will rotate clockwise viewed from the rear under torque except in reverse, so normally the header will be moving away from the right side frame rail.

Which helps those of us with the headers being close to the top of the frame but won't that work against Gary's clearance since it's at the bottom? May have to shim AND shave a little off the frame?

I member that dent video. Crazy how much they dented it.

[ArdWrknTrk]

First, this happened today: as you can see below, there's a bit of a problem on the passenger's side header. The gap to the engine spacer is maybe 1/8", but the gap to the frame is maybe .010" - if that.

Thoughts?

I think L&L have not been paying attention, for decades.

It's just absurd that they can't get their Fab right.

Having to pull the transmission to install headers is a downright pita, but building them so you can't fit a business card between them and the frame is not anyone's good practice.

Maybe they'd fit better in a Windsor truck with L&L's swap mounts, IDK.

Meanwhile it's obvious that they don't listen to feedback, and have never actually installed them themselves.

.

 

[Gary Lewis]

First, this happened today: as you can see below, there's a bit of a problem on the passenger's side header. The gap to the engine spacer is maybe 1/8", but the gap to the frame is maybe .010" - if that.

Thoughts?

I think L&L have not been paying attention, for decades.

It's just absurd that they can't get their Fab right.

Having to pull the transmission to install headers is a downright pita, but building them so you can't fit a business card between them and the frame is not anyone's good practice.

Maybe they'd fit better in a Windsor truck with L&L's swap mounts, IDK.

Meanwhile it's obvious that they don't listen to feedback, and have never actually installed them themselves.

.

Bill is right that the gap between the spacer and the header won't change. But the fact that there's a problem there and a problem on the other side of the header to the frame means you can't just tweak the headers as you are robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And, Bill is right that I should have fit the headers to the engine before having them Jet-Hot coated. That way I could have dented them. But I didn't.

As for L&L not listening, maybe. But don't forget how many changes there have been to Big Blue. Somewhere along the way the front of the frame was tweaked, which I found installing the D60. Was it only the front? And the crossmember was hacked. And the perches were taken off and poorly reinstalled. So it is possible that Big Blue isn't quite 'right" and the headers would fit a truck that is "right". I don't know, but I do know that it is TIGHT in there. With 1/8" clearance on one side and essentially none on the other, I'm not sure anything would work save for going with smaller tubing.

Then there's the rotation of the engine. I thought about that, but the engine is sitting in rubber mounts and will surely snap back when the clutch is released. I'm sure of that 'cause the old L&L's were close to the perch on the driver's side, but you could see where they had been hitting in spite of the rotation away when accelerating forward.

So the lack of clearance to the frame has to be remedied. But I'm convinced that rotating the engine slightly with a spacer will do that. We shall see this afternoon.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Bill is right that the gap between the spacer and the header won't change. But the fact that there's a problem there and a problem on the other side of the header to the frame means you can't just tweak the headers as you are robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And, Bill is right that I should have fit the headers to the engine before having them Jet-Hot coated. That way I could have dented them. But I didn't.

As for L&L not listening, maybe. But don't forget how many changes there have been to Big Blue. Somewhere along the way the front of the frame was tweaked, which I found installing the D60. Was it only the front? And the crossmember was hacked. And the perches were taken off and poorly reinstalled. So it is possible that Big Blue isn't quite 'right" and the headers would fit a truck that is "right". I don't know, but I do know that it is TIGHT in there. With 1/8" clearance on one side and essentially none on the other, I'm not sure anything would work save for going with smaller tubing.

Then there's the rotation of the engine. I thought about that, but the engine is sitting in rubber mounts and will surely snap back when the clutch is released. I'm sure of that 'cause the old L&L's were close to the perch on the driver's side, but you could see where they had been hitting in spite of the rotation away when accelerating forward.

So the lack of clearance to the frame has to be remedied. But I'm convinced that rotating the engine slightly with a spacer will do that. We shall see this afternoon.

If it wasn't so far back together, I'd be very tempted to heat'n beat the frame rails.

[Gary Lewis]

If it wasn't so far back together, I'd be very tempted to heat'n beat the frame rails.

Yeah, I'm a bit past that point. Let's hope the spacer works. We should know this afternoon.

On another subject, I had a hard time finding the boot for the ZF5's clutch fork, but did an will document what I found here.

First, the part number from the MPC is E7TZ 7513-A. And searching for that found one in captivity via RearCounter at a Ford dealership in the KC area. They want $60 + $8 for shipping, and it turns out it is a reproduction boot. And other places show none in stock or "discontinued part".

But, I found several at AMP Distributing for $24.95 with free shipping. It is their part #ZFCFBT and they say:

Fits 1987-1998 Ford ZF 5 speed with external slave cylinder only.

 

Boot is manufactured using high temperature and oil resistant material for superior service life.

Not sure when it will be here, but it was ordered yesterday (Saturday) and while they've confirmed the order I've not gotten notification of it shipping. However, it won't hold me up if it takes a week as I can sort out the headers, reinstall the tranny, install the t-case, install the rear drive shaft, etc.

And, speaking of the headers, I'd forgotten that I have a stripped and repaired thread on one head, and the repair uses a larger bolt. So I'll have to drill the header's flange a bit to get that bolt in. And, at present I don't have the kind of bolt I want to use, so will have to wait until I get the right one to install that one.

Also, there's one bolt that can't quite go in due to the turn of the pipe, so I need to clearance that hole slightly. But I hope to have those things awa the spacer done today. After church, which is via Zoom and/or Facebook Live.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Yeah, I'm a bit past that point. Let's hope the spacer works. We should know this afternoon.

On another subject, I had a hard time finding the boot for the ZF5's clutch fork, but did an will document what I found here.

First, the part number from the MPC is E7TZ 7513-A. And searching for that found one in captivity via RearCounter at a Ford dealership in the KC area. They want $60 + $8 for shipping, and it turns out it is a reproduction boot. And other places show none in stock or "discontinued part".

But, I found several at AMP Distributing for $24.95 with free shipping. It is their part #ZFCFBT and they say:

Fits 1987-1998 Ford ZF 5 speed with external slave cylinder only.

 

Boot is manufactured using high temperature and oil resistant material for superior service life.

Not sure when it will be here, but it was ordered yesterday (Saturday) and while they've confirmed the order I've not gotten notification of it shipping. However, it won't hold me up if it takes a week as I can sort out the headers, reinstall the tranny, install the t-case, install the rear drive shaft, etc.

And, speaking of the headers, I'd forgotten that I have a stripped and repaired thread on one head, and the repair uses a larger bolt. So I'll have to drill the header's flange a bit to get that bolt in. And, at present I don't have the kind of bolt I want to use, so will have to wait until I get the right one to install that one.

Also, there's one bolt that can't quite go in due to the turn of the pipe, so I need to clearance that hole slightly. But I hope to have those things awa the spacer done today. After church, which is via Zoom and/or Facebook Live.

Gary, why don't you put a thread insert and have all the bolts the same?

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, why don't you put a thread insert and have all the bolts the same?

Jim - That's a good idea. I'll have to figure out what I have, but I'm thinking the standard ones are 3/8". So the oversized one is 7/16. Let me see....