Big Blue's Transformation

[grumpin]

I'm running 3.55's. And when I was running the carb I was kicking myself for going with those gears as I could have just as easily gone with 4.10's and thought it needed them. But now that it pulls so much better from idle these gears are working great.

Ben, the guy from Core Tuning, took a look at the timing table and said it doesn't have enough advance. So I'm thinking that there's more to be had in MPG.

I think I’ve mentioned, I always got trucks with 4.10’s. My 86 and my Bronco have 3.55’s and I like them.

My GMC has 3.73’s and they’re ok. But the Bronco with the E4OD wins on the low RPM cruise.

[Gary Lewis]

I think I’ve mentioned, I always got trucks with 4.10’s. My 86 and my Bronco have 3.55’s and I like them.

My GMC has 3.73’s and they’re ok. But the Bronco with the E4OD wins on the low RPM cruise.

That .71 OD of the E4OD is hard to beat, and I'm looking forward to getting Dad's truck on the road with the E4OD and 3.50's. The ZF5 in BB has a .76 OD and it works pretty well. Drop it into 5th and it'll motor up about anything w/o shifting.

As for what I mentioned earlier, I've been looking at the parameters that might have caused the idle to go to 1300 RPM this morning for several seconds. I'll bet part of it is the one below with the highlighted value for 160F being 304. Looking at a previous data log it took about 70 seconds for the engine coolant temp to go from 66F to 86F. So that would mean the RPM would have 304 added to base idle speed of 648, meaning it would be 952. And then it would start down slowly to an adder of 0 at 160F, but that takes another 6 minutes.

That means there's another 300+ RPM somewhere else that I haven't found.

[ArdWrknTrk]

That .71 OD of the E4OD is hard to beat, and I'm looking forward to getting Dad's truck on the road with the E4OD and 3.50's. The ZF5 in BB has a .76 OD and it works pretty well. Drop it into 5th and it'll motor up about anything w/o shifting.

As for what I mentioned earlier, I've been looking at the parameters that might have caused the idle to go to 1300 RPM this morning for several seconds. I'll bet part of it is the one below with the highlighted value for 160F being 304. Looking at a previous data log it took about 70 seconds for the engine coolant temp to go from 66F to 86F. So that would mean the RPM would have 304 added to base idle speed of 648, meaning it would be 952. And then it would start down slowly to an adder of 0 at 160F, but that takes another 6 minutes.

That means there's another 300+ RPM somewhere else that I haven't found.

Gary that's just awesome for a lifted 4x4 460.

Planning and dedication are paying off.

What size tires are you running???

[BigBrother-84]

I'm running 3.55's. And when I was running the carb I was kicking myself for going with those gears as I could have just as easily gone with 4.10's and thought it needed them. But now that it pulls so much better from idle these gears are working great.

Ben, the guy from Core Tuning, took a look at the timing table and said it doesn't have enough advance. So I'm thinking that there's more to be had in MPG.

Gary,

I suppose there is a specific thread about these EFI conversions? Or maybe each member had his own?

If so , possible to have it (them)?

Thanks!

[Gary Lewis]

Gary,

I suppose there is a specific thread about these EFI conversions? Or maybe each member had his own?

If so , possible to have it (them)?

Thanks!

Thanks, Jim. I was really pleased. No, THRILLED! And I really believe there is a bit more to be had.

Jeff - No, there's isn't a how-to thread on installing factory EFI on one of these trucks. Only two of us have done it, and mine is buried in this thread along with lots of other stuff. But for the most part you could go back to the beginning of the year on this thread and follow it through as there wasn't much else done on the truck but EFI.

The other person that's done it is Bill/85lebaront2, and he did it while we were all back on FTE. So if there is anything about it I suspect it is back there. Maybe he can comment?

However, I do want to make sure I explain why Big Blue has been such a Jekyll & Hyde experience with the carb and EFI. I believe that is mainly to do with the size & design of the lower plenum, aka intake manifold. Big Blue's old, very worn out, 460 ran pretty good on the carb with an Edelbrock Performer intake and matching carb, but never turned in more than 12 MPG, and it was usually in the high 11's.

Then I put the new engine in and used the EFI lower plenum and a carb adapter since I was planning the move to EFI. That worked, sorta, but I never got the kind of seamless power out of it that the old engine had. It just didn't want to pull below 1200 RPM when the old engine pulled from idle. Nor did I realize the improved MPG I expected from a new engine.

I believe a lot of that was due to the design of the lower plenum. It was never intended to carry fuel suspended in the air, so it doesn't keep the velocity of the air up enough and the fuel drops out of suspension at low RPM's. And because of that the engine just didn't want to pull down low. Kind of like installing a high-rise single-plane intake on a street-driven engine, which is a no-no.

So, would I do this all over again? YES! In fact I'm going to do so on Dad's truck, which is going to get an EEC-V system as well. But, that isn't to say that the factory EFI systems are better than an aftermarket system. My goal is mainly to have a system that can easily be maintained by my offspring, who will inherit these trucks, and I believe the best way to do that is to give them a "factory" system with an OBD-II port that any mechanic can diagnose and repair.

So for a younger person I might suggest looking at an aftermarket system. They are less complex, especially in the software, and are designed to be easily installed.

[85lebaront2]

Gary,

I suppose there is a specific thread about these EFI conversions? Or maybe each member had his own?

If so , possible to have it (them)?

Thanks!

As Gary said, I did my EFI conversion over 10 years ago. My goal was two fold, the need for a control system for an E4OD and the fact that Darth was never really an everyday driver (finding a parking space for a 22 foot long, 8 foot wide vehicle is interesting). With the carbureted engine, even "cheating" by priming the fuel system with the electric pumps it could still be a pain. Once primed and started it wasn't bad. Fuel "economy" was a pretty solid 10 unless I was towing the 5th wheel, then it went down to about 8.

What I was finding was (a) E4OD requires a computer of some wind to control it (b) EFI conversions I was finding were TBI systems, essentially a pressure carburetor. Prices for either were high, $1500 for a Baumann transmission controller, and even more for a TBI conversion. Having spent a number of years working on vehicles including 3 years at a Dodge/Jaguar/MG/Mercedes-Benz/Mitsubishi (colt)/Sunbeam (Cricket) dealership I was familiar with EFI and mechanical injection systems.

While trying to find a way to set up a 5.0L E4OD computer for a 460 E4OD combination, I was hitting a brick wall due to no information on how to re-program a Mass Air control 5.0L EEC to work on a MAP control 460. End result, while searching, Adam Marrer (now part of Core Tuning) contacted me and we worked out a system using a reflashable EEC-V computer.

[Gary Lewis]

As Gary said, I did my EFI conversion over 10 years ago. My goal was two fold, the need for a control system for an E4OD and the fact that Darth was never really an everyday driver (finding a parking space for a 22 foot long, 8 foot wide vehicle is interesting). With the carbureted engine, even "cheating" by priming the fuel system with the electric pumps it could still be a pain. Once primed and started it wasn't bad. Fuel "economy" was a pretty solid 10 unless I was towing the 5th wheel, then it went down to about 8.What I was finding was (a) E4OD requires a computer of some wind to control it (b) EFI conversions I was finding were TBI systems, essentially a pressure carburetor. Prices for either were high, $1500 for a Baumann transmission controller, and even more for a TBI conversion. Having spent a number of years working on vehicles including 3 years at a Dodge/Jaguar/MG/Mercedes-Benz/Mitsubishi (colt)/Sunbeam (Cricket) dealership I was familiar with EFI and mechanical injection systems.While trying to find a way to set up a 5.0L E4OD computer for a 460 E4OD combination, I was hitting a brick wall due to no information on how to re-program a Mass Air control 5.0L EEC to work on a MAP control 460. End result, while searching, Adam Marrer (now part of Core Tuning) contacted me and we worked out a system using a reflashable EEC-V computer.

Bill - Thanks.

 

Jeff, let me pick it up from there a bit. If you are thinking of using a factory EEC system on Big Brother with its 5.8L then you have two choices:

 

1. EEC-IV: These are, for the most part, speed density/bank-fire systems, although I do think there were some that had MAF and sequential injection on the Mustangs. The difference is that a SD system only knows what is in its program while the MAF systems learn. So you have to stay pretty much stock with the engine or the SD system can't cope.

 

EEC-V: These are MAF & sequential and can take mods to the system. Plus they have an OBD-II port. But the trucks that have this setup will be later model ones, like 1996, so the availability is less than IV systems.

 

In either case you'll have mods to make to your wiring, and we can talk you through that. And, you'll have to make some mods to either the EEC wiring or to the truck itself. For instance, I think all of the EEC-IV, and I know all of the EEC-V, systems for a 5.8L in the trucks had the ECU in the kick panel. So you either have to mod the truck to put it there, which is what Bill did, or lengthen the wiring to put the EEC where Ford had it in the Bullnose trucks, which is what I did.

 

But, you are in better shape than Bill and I were as there are both IV and V systems for your engine, where an EEC-V system for a 460 is really, REALLY rare. (Some guys don't believe there ever was one.) So if you stay somewhat stock you could get by w/o re-programming the ECU for a different engine. On the other hand, if you do away with catalytic converters, or EGR, or other such things then you'll have to re-program the ECU, and that means you'll need Binary Editor, a Mongoose cable, and a lot of learning. Been there, doing that...

[85lebaront2]

Bill - Thanks.

 

Jeff, let me pick it up from there a bit. If you are thinking of using a factory EEC system on Big Brother with its 5.8L then you have two choices:

 

1. EEC-IV: These are, for the most part, speed density/bank-fire systems, although I do think there were some that had MAF and sequential injection on the Mustangs. The difference is that a SD system only knows what is in its program while the MAF systems learn. So you have to stay pretty much stock with the engine or the SD system can't cope.

 

EEC-V: These are MAF & sequential and can take mods to the system. Plus they have an OBD-II port. But the trucks that have this setup will be later model ones, like 1996, so the availability is less than IV systems.

 

In either case you'll have mods to make to your wiring, and we can talk you through that. And, you'll have to make some mods to either the EEC wiring or to the truck itself. For instance, I think all of the EEC-IV, and I know all of the EEC-V, systems for a 5.8L in the trucks had the ECU in the kick panel. So you either have to mod the truck to put it there, which is what Bill did, or lengthen the wiring to put the EEC where Ford had it in the Bullnose trucks, which is what I did.

 

But, you are in better shape than Bill and I were as there are both IV and V systems for your engine, where an EEC-V system for a 460 is really, REALLY rare. (Some guys don't believe there ever was one.) So if you stay somewhat stock you could get by w/o re-programming the ECU for a different engine. On the other hand, if you do away with catalytic converters, or EGR, or other such things then you'll have to re-program the ECU, and that means you'll need Binary Editor, a Mongoose cable, and a lot of learning. Been there, doing that...

Let me expand a bit on what Gary said. First the EEC-IV system EECs are not reprogrammable, they require use of a piggyback device such as a TwEEcer or Moates Quarterhorse. One advantage to the smaller engines (302/351) is there is a lot of support for those engines in the Mustang groups. The 460 EFI systems started in 1988 and are probably one of the worst systems Ford built. Everything points to it was emission requirement driven and in stock form has a penchant for problems in #5 cylinder leading to oil consumption. The exhaust went backwards from the mid 1984-87 system. The 460s did not receive to nice tuned runner intakes of the smaller V8s, using what is essentially a modified 4 barrel intake topped with a ? shaped upper plenum.In 1996, part of the OBD-II requirements called for the capability for dealer level computer reprogramming capability to solve the issue with having to replace the computer for updates (specific example, there are a load of different 1985/86 5.0L computer numbers due to updates). There are only 3 different 460 MAF system computers, FEZ1,2 & 3.The trucks started getting MAF/SEFI systems with the 1994 model year on the 5.0L, 5.8L in 1995. All except the HD models and 460s in 1996. One truck peculiar issue that crops up, no car ever came with an E4OD because it is huge, the mount is 7" further back than a C6. The smaller 4R70 series was installed in cars, so a 351 with a 4R70W can be run with a reflashed car EEC and definitely a 302 and 4R70W can.

[Gary Lewis]

Let me expand a bit on what Gary said.

First the EEC-IV system EECs are not reprogrammable, they require use of a piggyback device such as a TwEEcer or Moates Quarterhorse. One advantage to the smaller engines (302/351) is there is a lot of support for those engines in the Mustang groups. The 460 EFI systems started in 1988 and are probably one of the worst systems Ford built. Everything points to it was emission requirement driven and in stock form has a penchant for problems in #5 cylinder leading to oil consumption. The exhaust went backwards from the mid 1984-87 system. The 460s did not receive to nice tuned runner intakes of the smaller V8s, using what is essentially a modified 4 barrel intake topped with a ? shaped upper plenum.

In 1996, part of the OBD-II requirements called for the capability for dealer level computer reprogramming capability to solve the issue with having to replace the computer for updates (specific example, there are a load of different 1985/86 5.0L computer numbers due to updates). There are only 3 different 460 MAF system computers, FEZ1,2 & 3.

The trucks started getting MAF/SEFI systems with the 1994 model year on the 5.0L, 5.8L in 1995. All except the HD models and 460s in 1996.

One truck peculiar issue that crops up, no car ever came with an E4OD because it is huge, the mount is 7" further back than a C6. The smaller 4R70 series was installed in cars, so a 351 with a 4R70W can be run with a reflashed car EEC and definitely a 302 and 4R70W can.

Thanks for the additional info, Bill.

Ok, this morning I decided it was time to figure out why I still have the Ewissions light on, so I put my scanner on instead of Binary Editor as it seems easier. Here's what I got:

Trouble Code(s)

P0443: Evaporative Emission Control System Purge Control Valve - Circuit Malfunction

P0155: O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 2 Sensor 1)

P1151: Ford: Heated Oxygen Sensor - No Transitions / Sensor Indicates Lean Mixture

P0385: Crankshaft Position Sensor B - Circuit Malfunction

Hmmm, Bank 2 Sensor 1 is the driver's side front, so I slide under and looked. Yup, either it had already hit the driveshaft before taking it to the exhaust shop or the guy at the shop bent it. But, it sure looked bad, as you'll see below.

My first thought was to replace that one from Amazon, but it'll be several days before it could get here. However, I have the one from Huck's speed density system, and while I don't know if it is good it is worth a try.

The first problem was that its connector has pins/tabs on it that the connector on the truck doesn't have, so I removed them. The next problem was that it didn't have a gasket, and the one on the bent sensor did not want to come off. But with a cabinet of old spark plugs, some of which have the same threads, I found a new gasket that fit nicely.

Then I discovered welding spatter on the sealing surface of the bung, so some work with a file was needed. But after that it all went together nicely and I'm getting ready for a short trip to test it.

 

[BigBrother-84]

Let me expand a bit on what Gary said.

First the EEC-IV system EECs are not reprogrammable, they require use of a piggyback device such as a TwEEcer or Moates Quarterhorse. One advantage to the smaller engines (302/351) is there is a lot of support for those engines in the Mustang groups. The 460 EFI systems started in 1988 and are probably one of the worst systems Ford built. Everything points to it was emission requirement driven and in stock form has a penchant for problems in #5 cylinder leading to oil consumption. The exhaust went backwards from the mid 1984-87 system. The 460s did not receive to nice tuned runner intakes of the smaller V8s, using what is essentially a modified 4 barrel intake topped with a ? shaped upper plenum.

In 1996, part of the OBD-II requirements called for the capability for dealer level computer reprogramming capability to solve the issue with having to replace the computer for updates (specific example, there are a load of different 1985/86 5.0L computer numbers due to updates). There are only 3 different 460 MAF system computers, FEZ1,2 & 3.

The trucks started getting MAF/SEFI systems with the 1994 model year on the 5.0L, 5.8L in 1995. All except the HD models and 460s in 1996.

One truck peculiar issue that crops up, no car ever came with an E4OD because it is huge, the mount is 7" further back than a C6. The smaller 4R70 series was installed in cars, so a 351 with a 4R70W can be run with a reflashed car EEC and definitely a 302 and 4R70W can.

Thanks Gentlemen for these explanations!

In fact, I am not planing any «Jekyll & Hyde» operation on Big Brother, but I find this kind of modification VERY interesting. And with the fuel price "explosion" (ok, bad dad joke), who knows if couple of us will eventually look at this possibility more seriously. Just knowing this is possible is already a great thing.

As long as it remains occasional truck use, it will probably still be more economical to pay for gas (even at 10 MPG). But for those of us who ride their old F-Series more often, this could be an attractive solution.

We can also wait and see if any «EV retrofit» will ever become a reality, such as "Ford Eluminator concept" or other similar proposals. If such kits ever see the light of day, it will probably be much more complicated than going EFI, since all the propulsion, drivetrain, transmission, etc, will also have to be replaced or seriously modified.

If some day you feel you have too many free hours in your life, copy-pasting your «Carburator-To-EFI-Frankestein» journeys in a specific thread could be nice.

If only for posterity...