Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

[salans7]

Shaun - Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. Get the flip kit awa the u-bolts.

However, with the flip kit where does the panhard rod attach?

It doesn't. Therein lies another problem. You have three options.

- U-Bolt flip and no panhard bar

- Panhard bar with replacement or stock passenger U-Bolt plate and driver's side U-Bolt flip

- No flip kit, 100% stock with the driver's side U-Bolt plate.

[Gary Lewis]

Shaun - Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. Get the flip kit awa the u-bolts.

However, with the flip kit where does the panhard rod attach?

It doesn't. Therein lies another problem. You have three options.

- U-Bolt flip and no panhard bar

- Panhard bar with replacement or stock passenger U-Bolt plate and driver's side U-Bolt flip

- No flip kit, 100% stock with the driver's side U-Bolt plate.

Jim - I understand what you are saying. We are thinking alike.

Shaun - Here is the stuff that David found. Seems complete - right?

[Nothing Special]

.... Adam sent me to Billy Young's 4WD for parts, but we did discuss the locker idea. He's not high on Ox, preferring the ARB. But, he also said the ARB is a pain to set up and it is pretty sure that the o-rings will start leaking in 2 - 10 years and require re-work.

If that's what he expects from his favorite, how terrible does he think the OX is?

.... On the spring subject he suggested using the springs I have. But when I suggested SuperDuty springs he liked the idea.

When Billy suggests using the 250 springs you already have, all my faith in him goes up the chimney like smoke....

I was surprised about the springs as well. Perhaps I misunderstood? Maybe he was saying the F350 springs would fit the F250 perches?....

If he was saying to use your F-250 springs, that's bad advice. But yes, F-350 springs will attach directly to the F-250 perches, giving you a stock F-350 suspension with no extra costs for an RSK or new perches for SuperDuty springs (and with no benefits from them either, but it'd still ride better than the stock F-250).

.... Regarding a locker, he's high on even the factory unit as wells as the Trutrac. (He might take my D44 Trutrac in as trade for parts or labor.) He really doesn't see the auto-lockers as being a problem since you won't be driving in 4wd at high speed on a road. But, if I want a locker like ARB he can install it, whether I buy from him or not. Just price the unit and check w/him to see if he can get it cheaper.

First off, neither the "factory unit" nor the TrueTrac are lockers. They are limited slips. And please don't let him talk you into a clutch type limited slip. In my opinion those are the worst of all worlds.

As far as an auto locker in the front, the torque steer even at low speeds is VERY annoying, but it is worth it if you value the performance. It's nice to not have to think about turning it on and off as needed, and it won't bind up and stay engaged when you want it to disengage. But in my limited experience the OX has never been difficult to get to disengage. Both have their advantages, but I really think you'll prefer a selectable.

.... And, he says the track bar is not needed unless you have a diesel or large camper that is always on the truck. Says that it limits the travel of the axle to about 3", but that the springs will do a good job of locating the axle w/o the bar.

I might go no panhard if I was into rock crawling but I've heard too many stories of death wobble and I like the idea of having the front axle attached by more than just the springs in a road driven vehicle.

Ford didn't put it on to piss away profit margin, did they?

Leaf spring / solid axle vehicles never used to have track bars. I'm not saying that it wasn't an improvement in handling when Ford put them on F-350s, but without can work well too. On the other hand, I really think you'd get more than 3" of travel with the bar. If it were me I'd start with the bar and only take it out if it seemed to ever be a problem.

You guys are really watching things! Just got a text from Chris saying he now understands why I have the safe room in the shop. And you are seeing it as well.

Fortunately they just lifted the tornado warning, although we are still in a watch until 1:00 AM. But, we are certainly in a flood warning. I posted a video of the creek behind the shop at about noon today on FB. It rarely has water in it but lately it has been running about 3" deep and 10" wide. Today it was probably 3' deep and 10' wide. Yes, really....

And I thought our weather this past weekend was bad! We went to my folks lake cabin and "enjoyed" 2 days of almost solid rain with temps starting in the 40s and dropping into the mid-thirties. We did sneak a couple of cold pontoon rides in, but opted not to go on Sunday when it started snowing Still, I'll take that over tornadoes and huge hail!

 

[Gary Lewis]

If that's what he expects from his favorite, how terrible does he think the OX is?

How long have you had your Ox? I'm more interested in it than the ARB.

If he was saying to use your F-250 springs, that's bad advice. But yes, F-350 springs will attach directly to the F-250 perches, giving you a stock F-350 suspension with no extra costs for an RSK or new perches for SuperDuty springs (and with no benefits from them either, but it'd still ride better than the stock F-250).

If I am piecing this together then I think I'd like to go with SD springs and the RSK.

First off, neither the "factory unit" nor the TrueTrac are lockers. They are limited slips. And please don't let him talk you into a clutch type limited slip. In my opinion those are the worst of all worlds.

As far as an auto locker in the front, the torque steer even at low speeds is VERY annoying, but it is worth it if you value the performance. It's nice to not have to think about turning it on and off as needed, and it won't bind up and stay engaged when you want it to disengage. But in my limited experience the OX has never been difficult to get to disengage. Both have their advantages, but I really think you'll prefer a selectable.

In for a penny, in for a pound. If I'm going to do this I'd better do it right, with something like the Ox.

Leaf spring / solid axle vehicles never used to have track bars. I'm not saying that it wasn't an improvement in handling when Ford put them on F-350s, but without can work well too. On the other hand, I really think you'd get more than 3" of travel with the bar. If it were me I'd start with the bar and only take it out if it seemed to ever be a problem.

You are also thinking like I am - I can install the track bar and if it seems to be limiting travel I can pull it for the trails. Can surely create a quick disconnect of some kind.

And I thought our weather this past weekend was bad! We went to my folks lake cabin and "enjoyed" 2 days of almost solid rain with temps starting in the 40s and dropping into the mid-thirties. We did sneak a couple of cold pontoon rides in, but opted not to go on Sunday when it started snowing Still, I'll take that over tornadoes and huge hail!

It is POURING! And, we just had another tornado warning pop up. Our TV is via satellite and it is out, so I'm watching via the internet. But the line of storms goes southwest to Abilene, TX. Gonna be a long night.

Oh yes, what about sway bars? I have them disconnected as they really hurt the ride. But would they even connect to an F350 axle?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - I understand what you are saying. We are thinking alike.

I want to be clear.

I don't think $500 is an unreasonable fee to go though and recondition a drive axle. (seals, bad bushings/bearings, etc..)

But (edit) $1900 for a fully functional D60 seems too much to me.

Hang in there.

My last glance at the NWS doppler looked like OKC and west of Tulsa were getting hammered.

[Gary Lewis]

Jim - I understand what you are saying. We are thinking alike.

I want to be clear.

I don't think $500 is an unreasonable fee to go though and recondition a drive axle. (seals, bad bushings/bearings, etc..)

But (edit) $1900 for a fully functional D60 seems too much to me.

Hang in there.

My last glance at the NWS doppler looked like OKC and west of Tulsa were getting hammered.

Jim - I agree. I'll go to OKC and get the D60 for $840 before I pay anything like $1400 - for a well-used axle. But, I hope to go by and talk to him today to see if maybe I misunderstood.

However, we may not go until afternoon as the rain continuing. I've never, ever seen this much rain. Last night our creek was 101% full. The water was up to and slightly over the banks, and we stood in the water running into it to try and get a pic. But pitch blackness isn't easily penetrated with a DeWalt light, nor "filmed" well with an iPhone. So I don't have much to show for that jaunt.

However, our back fence is still standing, which is a miracle. A few years ago the creek got up like this and coated the chain-links with leaves and then pushed it down. So I'm pleasantly surprised that it is still standing - although it is still too dark to see the creek itself.

And, there's only one convoluted way to get from Skiatook to Tulsa. Highway 20 is closed on the east side of town, and will be for several days because Bird Creek is 8' above flood stage and has yet to crest. And the low lands to the south are flooded. So we have to go west to the dam, south across it, and then back east to the road south.

AND IT IS STILL POURING!

[Nothing Special]

How long have you had your Ox? I'm more interested in it than the ARB.

I've only had it for one year, and only used it on the one week-long trip out to Ouray that I told you all about here. So I'm not thinking that my experience gives any info on long-term reliability.

But as I said above, one thing I like about it is that it's completely mechanical. As you probably know, it's shifted by a fork that's mounted to the diff cover (so no OX available for TTB or 9" which don't have diff covers). So there are no electrical connections (like e-locker has) or air seals (like ARB has) inside the diff. Everything in the diff is mechanical. Mechanical stuff can wear, but barring catastrophic breakage (which could happen to any diff), it doesn't tend to suddenly not work like a broken electrical connection or blown seal can.

And again, I don't have any data that says e-locker or ARB are unreliable (and if I ever put anything in D-50 TTB in my F-25o it'll probably be one of those two). But I was attracted to the inherent simplicity of the OX.

Yes, going with the built-in air actuated cover I do now have an air seal that could fail. But it's in the cover, so it's a simple R&R job if it does blow, not requiring me to pull out the diff. And with the "drive-away lock" that OX has I can run a bolt into the air fitting boss in the cover and manually lock it if needed as a temporary trail fix.

As far as your guy saying the ARB is a pain to set up, I haven't heard that before. The only thing I can think of is that it's hard to get the air line routed and hooked up, because I can't imagine it's any harder to physically install and set up (but maybe I don't have a good enough imagination?). But as you read about my OX install, I certainly didn't find it easy to do. I blamed that on me rather than the OX, but having only done the one, I can't say that another diff wouldn't have been easier.

Oh yes, what about sway bars? I have them disconnected as they really hurt the ride. But would they even connect to an F350 axle?

I don't know for sure, but I'd think that F-350s could have been had with sway bars. Thinking about carrying a slide-in camper, or towing a big fifth wheel I'd think people would want / need the option (unless the track bar stiffens it up so much that it doesn't need it, but I doubt that's the case).

 

[Gary Lewis]

How long have you had your Ox? I'm more interested in it than the ARB.

I've only had it for one year, and only used it on the one week-long trip out to Ouray that I told you all about here. So I'm not thinking that my experience gives any info on long-term reliability.

But as I said above, one thing I like about it is that it's completely mechanical. As you probably know, it's shifted by a fork that's mounted to the diff cover (so no OX available for TTB or 9" which don't have diff covers). So there are no electrical connections (like e-locker has) or air seals (like ARB has) inside the diff. Everything in the diff is mechanical. Mechanical stuff can wear, but barring catastrophic breakage (which could happen to any diff), it doesn't tend to suddenly not work like a broken electrical connection or blown seal can.

And again, I don't have any data that says e-locker or ARB are unreliable (and if I ever put anything in D-50 TTB in my F-25o it'll probably be one of those two). But I was attracted to the inherent simplicity of the OX.

Yes, going with the built-in air actuated cover I do now have an air seal that could fail. But it's in the cover, so it's a simple R&R job if it does blow, not requiring me to pull out the diff. And with the "drive-away lock" that OX has I can run a bolt into the air fitting boss in the cover and manually lock it if needed as a temporary trail fix.

As far as your guy saying the ARB is a pain to set up, I haven't heard that before. The only thing I can think of is that it's hard to get the air line routed and hooked up, because I can't imagine it's any harder to physically install and set up (but maybe I don't have a good enough imagination?). But as you read about my OX install, I certainly didn't find it easy to do. I blamed that on me rather than the OX, but having only done the one, I can't say that another diff wouldn't have been easier.

Oh yes, what about sway bars? I have them disconnected as they really hurt the ride. But would they even connect to an F350 axle?

I don't know for sure, but I'd think that F-350s could have been had with sway bars. Thinking about carrying a slide-in camper, or towing a big fifth wheel I'd think people would want / need the option (unless the track bar stiffens it up so much that it doesn't need it, but I doubt that's the case).

Oh yes, I vividly remember your trip report. And, I cannot wait to do much of it myself. Hence the rationale for the upgrades to Big Blue.

And, I also remember what you said about the simplicity of the Ox, but had missed that the air mechanism is on the cover, so glad you mentioned it. And given what he said about the ARB and how far you have to go to get to the o-rings, I'm going Ox. Thanks much for the heads-up.

As for the sway bar, they did have them. And, our page (Suspension & Steering/Sway Bars) has the illustrations below, and the bars and mounts are completely different. Which won't really hurt my feelings as mine are disconnected since they make the ride even worse.

[Gary Lewis]

Oh yes, I vividly remember your trip report. And, I cannot wait to do much of it myself. Hence the rationale for the upgrades to Big Blue.

And, I also remember what you said about the simplicity of the Ox, but had missed that the air mechanism is on the cover, so glad you mentioned it. And given what he said about the ARB and how far you have to go to get to the o-rings, I'm going Ox. Thanks much for the heads-up.

As for the sway bar, they did have them. And, our page (Suspension & Steering/Sway Bars) has the illustrations below, and the bars and mounts are completely different. Which won't really hurt my feelings as mine are disconnected since they make the ride even worse.

Just met with Billy Young at Young's Performance Differential. He's maybe not quite my age, but close. Knows his stuff from what I can tell, and given the number of Broncos, Jeeps, etc sitting around he's worked on everything. But that doesn't mean I agree with everything he suggested.

• The D60's his friend has, 2 ball joint and 1 king pin, are priced at $1400/ea and have not been rebuilt.

  So, I may be headed to OKC to pick up the other one.

• Anyway, I should strip off the axles and hubs and bring him the housing and diff. He'll go through it for $400 to $600 depending on what parts are needed and install the locker.

• He really did mean to use the existing F250 springs. Said one of the problems with the F250 suspensions is that you have only 1 1/2" of wheel travel. (Duh!) But going to a D60 fixes that part and the F250 springs work nicely. Or, I could go with F350 springs like I suggested, but they are stiffer and you won't have as good of ride. But then he got into using other springs in addition to the F250 springs, and I got lost. I'm still thinking if you have to buy springs buy SD springs.

• Locker: He really liked what I told him about the Ox. He's not all that fond of the ARB and the complexity, air leaks, boring a bearing cap, drilling a hole for the air line, etc. So he really liked the idea of the cover having the mechanism. And, he loved the idea that if all else fails you can run a bolt in to get the wheels locked. (He says he cautions people that once they've used the ARB to get through the tough stuff make sure NOT to tear up the air lines or they can't get back.)

In a bit I'll be going to 4WD Parts and will report back on that.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Just met with Billy Young at Young's Performance Differential. He's maybe not quite my age, but close. Knows his stuff from what I can tell, and given the number of Broncos, Jeeps, etc sitting around he's worked on everything. But that doesn't mean I agree with everything he suggested.

• The D60's his friend has, 2 ball joint and 1 king pin, are priced at $1400/ea and have not been rebuilt.

  So, I may be headed to OKC to pick up the other one.

• Anyway, I should strip off the axles and hubs and bring him the housing and diff. He'll go through it for $400 to $600 depending on what parts are needed and install the locker.

• He really did mean to use the existing F250 springs. Said one of the problems with the F250 suspensions is that you have only 1 1/2" of wheel travel. (Duh!) But going to a D60 fixes that part and the F250 springs work nicely. Or, I could go with F350 springs like I suggested, but they are stiffer and you won't have as good of ride. But then he got into using other springs in addition to the F250 springs, and I got lost. I'm still thinking if you have to buy springs buy SD springs.

• Locker: He really liked what I told him about the Ox. He's not all that fond of the ARB and the complexity, air leaks, boring a bearing cap, drilling a hole for the air line, etc. So he really liked the idea of the cover having the mechanism. And, he loved the idea that if all else fails you can run a bolt in to get the wheels locked. (He says he cautions people that once they've used the ARB to get through the tough stuff make sure NOT to tear up the air lines or they can't get back.)

In a bit I'll be going to 4WD Parts and will report back on that.

Maybe he is thinking of springs for a LD 250 with a Windsor and 5 lug hubs?

Sure as hell the 3560# gawr front end in my truck has stiffer springs than a 350's stack.

Maybe Billy is more about hardcore four wheeling and doesn't get the overlanding thing?