Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

[salans7]

However, I'll ask again: Is it not possible to put a set of, say, SD springs on the TTB's I have and gain some decent articulation & ride but save $2k?

Nope, your current springs are 52" long, the SD springs are 56" long.

 

[Gary Lewis]

However, I'll ask again: Is it not possible to put a set of, say, SD springs on the TTB's I have and gain some decent articulation & ride but save $2k?

Nope, your current springs are 52" long, the SD springs are 56" long.

I didn't mean w/o changing the mounts/shackles. Instead, what I meant was to replace the current springs with SD springs and add the SD RSK.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - The $2k that would be saved by using SuperDuty springs on my TTB's includes $800 for the D60 and $1200 for the Ox locker.

Gary,

Again I'm going to say that while a 250 RSK might get the axle off the bump stops and put the spring motion in the right direction you're still not eliminating the pivot bushing degradation, troublesome need to pull the front end apart to install different caster/camber bushings, and you still are going to need a drop pitman arm in addition to those TC drop pivots which are around $160.

Yes, scope creep has exponentially increased the cost.

My initial suggestion was to buy a wrecked F-350 4x4 for $5-600 and have ALL the parts for Big Blue except the RSK itself.

Then scrap the 350 hulk and the 250 front end for $350 or whatever the going rate.

I have time but no $ and realize that your dynamic is quite different.

I also realize that maybe you've had enough of dad's truck for now and want to shift gears and work on Big Blue.

You could still buy the $50 cross member and set about wiring up the 460 while looking for a dead 350.

You could still get the SD springs and weld in the RSK and do the LoPro mounts.

In the end you could still use the TTB if you don't find a 3.54 D60 and front driveshaft.

But that's up to you

You make a good point. I could replace the cross member, rebuild the engine, and even install it and wire it up if that won't cause problems with installing a different front axle. Meanwhile looking for an F350 for the axle, suspension, and for that matter t-case. (I think I have the right front driveshaft from the F350 that the ZF5 came from.)

I've not made any decisions about the front axle, and really don't need to make any for quite some time as there's plenty of work to be done. But I'm just trying to work through the options and the costs thereof.

So, perhaps waiting to see what comes from the searches I've kicked off would be the best approach. Perhaps they'll turn up the F350 and I'll have everything needed. However, even then I'll need to decide on the RSK, which is $450, and the locker, which is $1200.

Again, thanks for the help thinking through this.

I hadn't considered the cost of a front locker, or the fact that Big Blue already has one.

Maybe I've put it out of my mind because of my personal experience with them?

But that also means you would recoup some of that 2k by selling the D44 forward.

Not much, as it isn't very desirable, but something more than scrap.

[Nothing Special]

.... Also, you went with an air-powered Ox. Did they not have the electric shift available then? If so, why not use it?

As said, I hope to use an F600's radio bezel with room for several switches and readouts above them, so it seems reasonable to go with an electric one.

For one thing my Bronco already had on-board air, so it's not like I had the extra expense of adding an air compressor as well. But I understand your intent is to have an air compressor on Big Blue, so you'll be at essentially the same starting point as I was.

So for my thought process...

Why an OX? I wanted a selectable, so that narrowed my choices. In fact, I'm only aware of 3: ARB, OX and Eaton e-locker. I've heard of quite a few people having trouble with e-lockers not engaging (usually traced back to a bad electrical connection). And I know of two different types of e-lockers. Some have sprag clutches which unlock and then relock each time you change direction. I really wouldn't want that and I didn't feel like educating myself enough to make sure that I wouldn't be getting that style. So I ruled out the e-locker.

Between the other two, I've heard mostly good things about ARB, and only good things about OX. Not enough difference there to make a decision on. What I liked about the OX was that it's purely mechanical, and therefore a little simpler. Not that the ARB is overly complex, or inherently unreliable. Just that the OX is simpler (OX is simpler than the e-locker too). So that relatively short thought process brought me to the OX.

Why air actuated? OX has 4 actuation means (well, 5 really). You can control them with: a push-pull cable, an add-on electric actuator in the standard cover, an add-on air actuator in the standard cover, or an air actuator that's built into a special cover. (The fifth method is a bolt that you screw into the cover. You can do this in place of any of the 4 methods listed above. It's not at all convenient, but a great fall-back to have if something happens to disable the primary actuator. This is another feature I liked about the OX.)

I ruled out the push-pull cable, even though it's the simplest design, because it seemed like it would be harder to mount the lever and route the cable (which can't be kinked).

The electrical actuator and the add-on air actuator both end up with a fairly big, heavy thing cantilevered out of the diff cover. I figured that was an inherent disadvantage with the possibility of hitting it and breaking it off, or even just what would happen as it vibrated over the course of tens of thousands of miles. I should emphasize here, that this was an argument in my own mind that "just made sense." I know a lot of people use that phrase to strengthen their argument. I use it to point out that the only thing supporting the argument is that it makes sense. I don't have a shred of evidence to say that either method has any inherent risk. So take it for what it's worth.

But whatever the validity of that argument, I decided to go with the special cover with the integral air actuator. It has a piston in a bore, so you just screw an air line fitting in the cover and if you supply pressure it engages and if you remove pressure it disengages. It does have the inherent risk of the seal going bad and leaking air into the diff housing (which the add-on actuator can't do). But that's what I went with.

As far as hooking up controls for it, it wasn't much harder to do than if I had gone with the electric actuator. OX supplied an on/off valve that looks and mounts like a toggle switch, so I just needed to run air to and from it rather than wires. I already had an air line available on the floor under the dash, so it wasn't hard to tap into that for the supply. And running the air line to the diff wasn't any harder than running a wire would've been.

[Gary Lewis]

.... Also, you went with an air-powered Ox. Did they not have the electric shift available then? If so, why not use it?

As said, I hope to use an F600's radio bezel with room for several switches and readouts above them, so it seems reasonable to go with an electric one.

For one thing my Bronco already had on-board air, so it's not like I had the extra expense of adding an air compressor as well. But I understand your intent is to have an air compressor on Big Blue, so you'll be at essentially the same starting point as I was.

So for my thought process...

Why an OX? I wanted a selectable, so that narrowed my choices. In fact, I'm only aware of 3: ARB, OX and Eaton e-locker. I've heard of quite a few people having trouble with e-lockers not engaging (usually traced back to a bad electrical connection). And I know of two different types of e-lockers. Some have sprag clutches which unlock and then relock each time you change direction. I really wouldn't want that and I didn't feel like educating myself enough to make sure that I wouldn't be getting that style. So I ruled out the e-locker.

Between the other two, I've heard mostly good things about ARB, and only good things about OX. Not enough difference there to make a decision on. What I liked about the OX was that it's purely mechanical, and therefore a little simpler. Not that the ARB is overly complex, or inherently unreliable. Just that the OX is simpler (OX is simpler than the e-locker too). So that relatively short thought process brought me to the OX.

Why air actuated? OX has 4 actuation means (well, 5 really). You can control them with: a push-pull cable, an add-on electric actuator in the standard cover, an add-on air actuator in the standard cover, or an air actuator that's built into a special cover. (The fifth method is a bolt that you screw into the cover. You can do this in place of any of the 4 methods listed above. It's not at all convenient, but a great fall-back to have if something happens to disable the primary actuator. This is another feature I liked about the OX.)

I ruled out the push-pull cable, even though it's the simplest design, because it seemed like it would be harder to mount the lever and route the cable (which can't be kinked).

The electrical actuator and the add-on air actuator both end up with a fairly big, heavy thing cantilevered out of the diff cover. I figured that was an inherent disadvantage with the possibility of hitting it and breaking it off, or even just what would happen as it vibrated over the course of tens of thousands of miles. I should emphasize here, that this was an argument in my own mind that "just made sense." I know a lot of people use that phrase to strengthen their argument. I use it to point out that the only thing supporting the argument is that it makes sense. I don't have a shred of evidence to say that either method has any inherent risk. So take it for what it's worth.

But whatever the validity of that argument, I decided to go with the special cover with the integral air actuator. It has a piston in a bore, so you just screw an air line fitting in the cover and if you supply pressure it engages and if you remove pressure it disengages. It does have the inherent risk of the seal going bad and leaking air into the diff housing (which the add-on actuator can't do). But that's what I went with.

As far as hooking up controls for it, it wasn't much harder to do than if I had gone with the electric actuator. OX supplied an on/off valve that looks and mounts like a toggle switch, so I just needed to run air to and from it rather than wires. I already had an air line available on the floor under the dash, so it wasn't hard to tap into that for the supply. And running the air line to the diff wasn't any harder than running a wire would've been.

Jim - I doubt the Trutrac or the D44HD will fetch much, but I'll be selling it for whatever I can get. As I will the T19.

Bob - I didn't realize that the electric actuator hung off the side. Guess I need to do more research. But I can go with air as there are inexpensive 12v solenoid valves that I could use so I can install a switch in the cab to control the locker.

Assuming the storms aren't too bad in the morning we are headed into Tulsa and I plan to consult with the folks at 4wd Parts. They sell and install both ARB and Ox, so I'll get their input, prices, etc.

[Nothing Special]

Jim - I doubt the Trutrac or the D44HD will fetch much, but I'll be selling it for whatever I can get. As I will the T19.

Bob - I didn't realize that the electric actuator hung off the side. Guess I need to do more research. But I can go with air as there are inexpensive 12v solenoid valves that I could use so I can install a switch in the cab to control the locker.

Assuming the storms aren't too bad in the morning we are headed into Tulsa and I plan to consult with the folks at 4wd Parts. They sell and install both ARB and Ox, so I'll get their input, prices, etc.

Oops, I have to take some of that back. Maybe my info wasn't good, or maybe they've changed it. But now it looks like the electric actuator pushes ad pulls on a cable that you then run to the diff cover. That looks to be more robust than I remember, but still has the downside of needing to carefully route the cable. Not a show-stopper, but I'm still happy with my choice.

And yes, you can get a solenoid and control the air-actuated ones with an electric switch. BUt if you go the air-actuated OX route, look at the valve they provide. You might find it easiest just to mount that in your switch panel.

[Gary Lewis]

Oops, I have to take some of that back. Maybe my info wasn't good, or maybe they've changed it. But now it looks like the electric actuator pushes ad pulls on a cable that you then run to the diff cover. That looks to be more robust than I remember, but still has the downside of needing to carefully route the cable. Not a show-stopper, but I'm still happy with my choice.

And yes, you can get a solenoid and control the air-actuated ones with an electric switch. BUt if you go the air-actuated OX route, look at the valve they provide. You might find it easiest just to mount that in your switch panel.

Bob - No prob. I have a ways to go before decided on the actuator. But your thoughts really help. Thanks.

I've now done a TON of reading on various forums, and given the good advice I've gotten here as well as what I've read elsewhere am convinced the D60 is the way to go. Here are some of the MANY posts from elsewhere that helped me make my mind up.

This one explains in terms I can easily understand why what I have cannot work well:

• Some guy that thinks he's Nothing Special: The problem with the F-250 TTB is the combination of TTB with leaf springs. As the suspension cycles the beam makes the end of the axle swing in one arc (around the beam pivot, moving the axle end right to left as it moves up and down) and the spring makes it swing in another (around the fixed end of the spring, moving the axle end front to back as it moves up and down). The beam won't let the axle end move front to back and the spring greatly resists right to left, so the suspension binds up.

  It is a terrible design, but overall it does work. Some people even like it. Rebuilding and keeping an F-250 TTB isn't the worst thing in the world to do. But most people do think the F-350 solid axle setup, which doesn't bind up, rides better even though it's a 1 ton compared to the TTB 3/4 ton.

This one states what I've observed with Big Blue's TTB:

• Diesel Brad: a Solid axle will ride better than the TTB just for the fact it actually has suspension travel. The TTB rides so bad because there is about 1" of travel before it hits the bump stops. It is that sudden stop that makes it ride so harsh.

  If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs

And then here's Diesel Brad's shopping list:

The axle itself

3 variations will work (all from F350s)

A. 85.5-91 Dana 60. It has king pins and pin on calipers

B. 92-94 Dana 60. It has ball joints and Pin on calipers

C. 95-97 Dana 60. it has vll joints and Bolt on calipers. Also has 1/2" bigger brakes.

There were 2 gear ratio options thru the years. 4,01 and 3.55. So you need to know what you have.

Front driveshaft (SOME have found this is not necessary)

f350s used a Double joint at the t-case end (cardian joint) This was to help with the added angle from the added F250 height (2") and the sorter distance (dana 60 has a longer pinion).

To go with the F350 shaft you also need the F350 yoke from the front of the t-case. There were (2) t-cases offered the 1356 (80s-95) and the 4407(96/97).

You will need the yoke from the 1356. The 1356 and 4407 yoke are NOT interchangeable)

Track bar mount (mounts on engine crossmember using existing holes)

Track bar (goes between axle and mount to keep axle centered)

F350 leaf springs

You want F350 springs and NOT F250 springs because the TTB springs have a MUCH high spring rate due to they have to follow the arch of the TTB and the F350 springs just basically go up and down. There are 2 versions of the F350 spring. Big block/ diesel and Small block

Drivers side U-bolt plate and u-bolts

This is a a cast piece that goes under the axle and partially around the pumpkin to allow the unbolts to go over the springs and clamp them to the axle. this is an OBSOLETE part and no one makes them. You want NEW u-bolts they are stretch to yield an are not designed to be reused.

F350 pitman arm

It is just a TOUCH longer than the F250 but allows the tires to turn all the way. You can retain the F250 one but steering radius will be terrible. This is an OBSOLETE part and last I heard the aftermarket was runny VERY short on supply)

Steering linkage

You need F350 linkage, F250 stuff will NOT WORK

Brake calipers

You need the correct ones of the axle

Follow the year range of the axle(above)

F250s used the same style per year as the f350

For the rear, you will want the F350(4") blocks and new U-bolts

F250s use 2" blocks

So now it is a question of how I acquire the parts - piecemeal or by getting an F350 and disassembling it. We shall see.

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Bob - No prob. I have a ways to go before decided on the actuator. But your thoughts really help. Thanks.

I've now done a TON of reading on various forums, and given the good advice I've gotten here as well as what I've read elsewhere am convinced the D60 is the way to go. Here are some of the MANY posts from elsewhere that helped me make my mind up.

This one explains in terms I can easily understand why what I have cannot work well:

• Some guy that thinks he's Nothing Special: The problem with the F-250 TTB is the combination of TTB with leaf springs. As the suspension cycles the beam makes the end of the axle swing in one arc (around the beam pivot, moving the axle end right to left as it moves up and down) and the spring makes it swing in another (around the fixed end of the spring, moving the axle end front to back as it moves up and down). The beam won't let the axle end move front to back and the spring greatly resists right to left, so the suspension binds up.

  It is a terrible design, but overall it does work. Some people even like it. Rebuilding and keeping an F-250 TTB isn't the worst thing in the world to do. But most people do think the F-350 solid axle setup, which doesn't bind up, rides better even though it's a 1 ton compared to the TTB 3/4 ton.

This one states what I've observed with Big Blue's TTB:

• Diesel Brad: a Solid axle will ride better than the TTB just for the fact it actually has suspension travel. The TTB rides so bad because there is about 1" of travel before it hits the bump stops. It is that sudden stop that makes it ride so harsh.

  If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs

And then here's Diesel Brad's shopping list:

The axle itself

3 variations will work (all from F350s)

A. 85.5-91 Dana 60. It has king pins and pin on calipers

B. 92-94 Dana 60. It has ball joints and Pin on calipers

C. 95-97 Dana 60. it has vll joints and Bolt on calipers. Also has 1/2" bigger brakes.

There were 2 gear ratio options thru the years. 4,01 and 3.55. So you need to know what you have.

Front driveshaft (SOME have found this is not necessary)

f350s used a Double joint at the t-case end (cardian joint) This was to help with the added angle from the added F250 height (2") and the sorter distance (dana 60 has a longer pinion).

To go with the F350 shaft you also need the F350 yoke from the front of the t-case. There were (2) t-cases offered the 1356 (80s-95) and the 4407(96/97).

You will need the yoke from the 1356. The 1356 and 4407 yoke are NOT interchangeable)

Track bar mount (mounts on engine crossmember using existing holes)

Track bar (goes between axle and mount to keep axle centered)

F350 leaf springs

You want F350 springs and NOT F250 springs because the TTB springs have a MUCH high spring rate due to they have to follow the arch of the TTB and the F350 springs just basically go up and down. There are 2 versions of the F350 spring. Big block/ diesel and Small block

Drivers side U-bolt plate and u-bolts

This is a a cast piece that goes under the axle and partially around the pumpkin to allow the unbolts to go over the springs and clamp them to the axle. this is an OBSOLETE part and no one makes them. You want NEW u-bolts they are stretch to yield an are not designed to be reused.

F350 pitman arm

It is just a TOUCH longer than the F250 but allows the tires to turn all the way. You can retain the F250 one but steering radius will be terrible. This is an OBSOLETE part and last I heard the aftermarket was runny VERY short on supply)

Steering linkage

You need F350 linkage, F250 stuff will NOT WORK

Brake calipers

You need the correct ones of the axle

Follow the year range of the axle(above)

F250s used the same style per year as the f350

For the rear, you will want the F350(4") blocks and new U-bolts

F250s use 2" blocks

So now it is a question of how I acquire the parts - piecemeal or by getting an F350 and disassembling it. We shall see.

One thing I see Brad doesn't have on his shopping list is dampers/shock absorbers.

I'd think 2-4" of lift would have them topping out constantly.

Depending on the spring chosen stock 250 shocks might be in tension most of the time.

Keep an eye on the brake hoses as well.

[Gary Lewis]

One thing I see Brad doesn't have on his shopping list is dampers/shock absorbers.

I'd think 2-4" of lift would have them topping out constantly.

Depending on the spring chosen stock 250 shocks might be in tension most of the time.

Keep an eye on the brake hoses as well.

Good point, Jim.

And, by the way, I should have said in my post last night that I've gotten really good advice on here. So I've revised that post to say, among other things:

I've now done a TON of reading on various forums, and given the good advice I've gotten here as well as what I've read elsewhere am convinced the D60 is the way to go. Here are some of the MANY posts from elsewhere that helped me make my mind up.

Also, I did get a response from '89F2urd. Here is the salient info:

The ttb is a phenomenal piece when setup properly. It's actually widely used in high speed applications. That said, they are lousy in stock form, no doubt about that. The springs were not very good when they were brand new, and being 30 years old just makes them worse.

I'm sure you're already aware that any worn out components will cause ride quality to suffer, so make sure your pivot and spring bushings are in good working order, or upgrade them.

The remedy to your woes will come by way of a lift kit. You can get one as small as 2.5" (about the amount that a dana 60 will raise your truck) and quality shocks. I always ran 4" lift, which would be better, but 2.5 would still be night and day vs stock springs. I swapped in a dana 60 in my 89 when I started running heavy 37s, but I miss being able to fly over bumps with my ttb.

What I forgot to tell him is that my springs and bushings are new, and the bushings are poly. So he's saying that a simple lift would solve the problem. But while that would provide more space between the spring and the bump stop I doubt it would make much difference. I say that because the spring is apparently stiff enough to only flex very little on a bump, so just because it no longer hits the stop shouldn't make much difference. And, the lift does nothing to resolve the inherit physics problems of a leaf-sprung TTB, as explained by Bob.

So, I'm still convinced that a D60 is the way to go. I'll report back on what I find out today.

[Nothing Special]

....

• Some guy that thinks he's Nothing Special: .... The beam won't let the axle end move front to back and the spring greatly resists right to left, so the suspension binds up.

One thing I had at least a little wrong back then is that the beam actually does let the axle move front-to-back. That's why coil spring TTBs still work so well, even with a radius arm. But a radius arm does allow the axle to move right-to-left, and I'm still confident I'm right about a leaf spring fighting that, so overall I still stand by what I said then.

....

• Diesel Brad: .... If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs

Keep in mind that's adding 1.5" to a stock F-350, which already rides about 2" higher than a stock F-250. I think Big Blue might already have a front lift, so I'm not saying you'll be lifting him 3.5". Just trying to clarify.