Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

[Gary Lewis]

Tapered hubs with 150 sized lockouts = D44.

Mounted under a 250 with eight lug hubs = HD

Only the Supercab's always came with the D50.

Or it could be optioned as part of the plow package, for example

Right. It is disconcerting for someone who is in a business where they should know better to be wrong. But worse yet to tell me that I don't know what I have when he hasn't seen it.

I guess I'm still hung up on them saying the application for the 85-91 Ford F-350 4x4 2" Front Shackle Reversal (OBS Spring) kit is:

Truck: 85-91 F-350 4x4 straight axle trucks.

Springs: 52" 80-97 Ford F-350 front leaf springs

Axle: 85-97 F-350 Dana 60 or F-250 4x4 with TTB drop brackets from Tough Country part # 20852.

I think there are two issues with that. First, it doesn't really matter that the "truck" is an F350. The kit will bolt on an F250 frame. The key is that you are using those springs and an 85-97 D60.

But the other issue is the "F-250 4x4 with TTB" bit. Are they saying it'll work w/my TTB's and the F350 or SuperDuty springs? Or, is their website wrong and it will only work with the D50?

I'm asking as I'm not to hung up on getting a D60. So if their kit paired with either F350 or SuperDuty springs would give me a bit of lift and the improved ride maybe I'd be happy.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Right. It is disconcerting for someone who is in a business where they should know better to be wrong. But worse yet to tell me that I don't know what I have when he hasn't seen it.

I guess I'm still hung up on them saying the application for the 85-91 Ford F-350 4x4 2" Front Shackle Reversal (OBS Spring) kit is:

Truck: 85-91 F-350 4x4 straight axle trucks.

Springs: 52" 80-97 Ford F-350 front leaf springs

Axle: 85-97 F-350 Dana 60 or F-250 4x4 with TTB drop brackets from Tough Country part # 20852.

I think there are two issues with that. First, it doesn't really matter that the "truck" is an F350. The kit will bolt on an F250 frame. The key is that you are using those springs and an 85-97 D60.

But the other issue is the "F-250 4x4 with TTB" bit. Are they saying it'll work w/my TTB's and the F350 or SuperDuty springs? Or, is their website wrong and it will only work with the D50?

I'm asking as I'm not to hung up on getting a D60. So if their kit paired with either F350 or SuperDuty springs would give me a bit of lift and the improved ride maybe I'd be happy.

To use their no panhard RSK kit on an F-250 you also have to source a drop pitman arm and a pair of drop TTB brackets from Tough Country.

You will still have all the downsides of TTB, such as finicky alignments, twisting springs, pivot bushings that wear out and limited caster/camber adjustment because of the offset bushings.

I did my research on this years ago and I couldn't find a rational reason to stay with TTB.

[Gary Lewis]

To use their no panhard RSK kit on an F-250 you also have to source a drop pitman arm and a pair of drop TTB brackets from Tough Country.

You will still have all the downsides of TTB, such as finicky alignments, twisting springs, pivot bushings that wear out and limited caster/camber adjustment because of the offset bushings.

I did my research on this years ago and I couldn't find a rational reason to stay with TTB.

You make a valid point. I'm still looking for the D60.....

Called my brother and asked him to ask his sons to look. Both are exceptionally good at finding things, and he figured one of them would have the truck located by nightfall.

And then posted this on four Ford truck Facebook pages:

I'm looking for a 3.54 D60, springs, pan hard rod, and associated brackets from an '86 - 97 F350. I'm in the Tulsa area, but can travel reasonable distances. What'cha got?

[Gary Lewis]

You make a valid point. I'm still looking for the D60.....

Called my brother and asked him to ask his sons to look. Both are exceptionally good at finding things, and he figured one of them would have the truck located by nightfall.

And then posted this on four Ford truck Facebook pages:

I'm looking for a 3.54 D60, springs, pan hard rod, and associated brackets from an '86 - 97 F350. I'm in the Tulsa area, but can travel reasonable distances. What'cha got?

Got a lead from a friend on the Bulls N' Bricks: 80-91 Ford Trucks And Broncos FB page. Actually, it is John Barnett, the owner of the page. He said "this axle is also out of a 1991 cab and chassis dually.. it has the dually style front hubs." So, what is different about the C&C's front hubs?

[Nothing Special]

Right. It is disconcerting for someone who is in a business where they should know better to be wrong. But worse yet to tell me that I don't know what I have when he hasn't seen it.

I guess I'm still hung up on them saying the application for the 85-91 Ford F-350 4x4 2" Front Shackle Reversal (OBS Spring) kit is:

Truck: 85-91 F-350 4x4 straight axle trucks.

Springs: 52" 80-97 Ford F-350 front leaf springs

Axle: 85-97 F-350 Dana 60 or F-250 4x4 with TTB drop brackets from Tough Country part # 20852.

I think there are two issues with that. First, it doesn't really matter that the "truck" is an F350. The kit will bolt on an F250 frame. The key is that you are using those springs and an 85-97 D60.

But the other issue is the "F-250 4x4 with TTB" bit. Are they saying it'll work w/my TTB's and the F350 or SuperDuty springs? Or, is their website wrong and it will only work with the D50?

I'm asking as I'm not to hung up on getting a D60. So if their kit paired with either F350 or SuperDuty springs would give me a bit of lift and the improved ride maybe I'd be happy.

Take this for what it's worth, because I have no personal experience with reverse shackle kits, just what I think is a pretty good understanding based on what I've read and what I know about the stock F-250 and F-350 suspensions.

As I understand it, originally none of the reverse shackle kits were intended for TTB front ends. They were only made for solid axles that had the shackle in front. So the '86 - '97 F-350 with the Dana 60 "monobeam" axle was the intended target.

However the F-250 HD and F-350 frames are identical, so if you swapped a Dana 60 "monobeam" axle into an F-250 HD you could use any RSK intended for an F-350 (because at that point you had all the same parts).

Then people started asking if the RSK would work on an F-250 that still had the TTB. At first the RSK suppliers said "no", then (likely realizing that they were turning down money) they started saying "yes".

However there is strong concern about whether an RSK would improve the ride significantly with a TTB. The RSK helps a solid axle because when a tire hits a bump and pushes the axle up, the RSK allows the axle and tire to move back, away from the hit rather than forcing it forward into the bump even harder.

The same physics should work in a TTB as well, except that in a TTB you have the suspension fighting itself already, with the spring trying to make the axle swing in one arc and the TTB trying to make it swing in another. An RSK doesn't address that root problem.

Still, the 2" of lift provided by an RSK will get you away from the bumpstops significantly, so if the harsh ride is from hitting the bumpstops it should help quite a bit. On the other hand, if the harsh ride is just from the stiff suspension, and you aren't even hitting the bumpstops, then it won't do much at all.

As to whether it would fit with the TTB, I'd certainly think it should, regardless of whether it's a Dana 44HD or a Dana 50. The RSK only interfaces with the frame and the springs, so it wouldn't care what axle is bolted to the springs. But as was already noted, a 2" lift with a TTB also requires the axle pivots to be dropped and a drop pitman arm. Otherwise it'll screw up the steering geometry.

[Nothing Special]

Got a lead from a friend on the Bulls N' Bricks: 80-91 Ford Trucks And Broncos FB page. Actually, it is John Barnett, the owner of the page. He said "this axle is also out of a 1991 cab and chassis dually.. it has the dually style front hubs." So, what is different about the C&C's front hubs?

The dually has hubs that stick out a lot farther so you can put a dually wheel (with the huge offset) on it. I THINK the axle itself is the same, so if you had normal Dana 50 hubs you could convert it.

Also the cab-and-chassis has a narrower frame than a pickup, but I'm pretty sure that's just behind the cab, so I don't think that would affect the font axle (spring perches are closer together on a dually rear axle). But I'm only about 99% sure on the fronts being the same.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Got a lead from a friend on the Bulls N' Bricks: 80-91 Ford Trucks And Broncos FB page. Actually, it is John Barnett, the owner of the page. He said "this axle is also out of a 1991 cab and chassis dually.. it has the dually style front hubs." So, what is different about the C&C's front hubs?

The dually has hubs that stick out a lot farther so you can put a dually wheel (with the huge offset) on it. I THINK the axle itself is the same, so if you had normal Dana 50 hubs you could convert it.

Also the cab-and-chassis has a narrower frame than a pickup, but I'm pretty sure that's just behind the cab, so I don't think that would affect the font axle (spring perches are closer together on a dually rear axle). But I'm only about 99% sure on the fronts being the same.

The cabs are the same so the front of the frame is the same.

Yep! Dually trucks have spindles that stick way out.

The F-450 I parted out had the rare 10 lug spindles and a HUGE pumpkin in the rear.

I'm pretty sure it was something like 5.52:1

[Gary Lewis]

Take this for what it's worth, because I have no personal experience with reverse shackle kits, just what I think is a pretty good understanding based on what I've read and what I know about the stock F-250 and F-350 suspensions.

As I understand it, originally none of the reverse shackle kits were intended for TTB front ends. They were only made for solid axles that had the shackle in front. So the '86 - '97 F-350 with the Dana 60 "monobeam" axle was the intended target.

However the F-250 HD and F-350 frames are identical, so if you swapped a Dana 60 "monobeam" axle into an F-250 HD you could use any RSK intended for an F-350 (because at that point you had all the same parts).

Then people started asking if the RSK would work on an F-250 that still had the TTB. At first the RSK suppliers said "no", then (likely realizing that they were turning down money) they started saying "yes".

However there is strong concern about whether an RSK would improve the ride significantly with a TTB. The RSK helps a solid axle because when a tire hits a bump and pushes the axle up, the RSK allows the axle and tire to move back, away from the hit rather than forcing it forward into the bump even harder.

The same physics should work in a TTB as well, except that in a TTB you have the suspension fighting itself already, with the spring trying to make the axle swing in one arc and the TTB trying to make it swing in another. An RSK doesn't address that root problem.

Still, the 2" of lift provided by an RSK will get you away from the bumpstops significantly, so if the harsh ride is from hitting the bumpstops it should help quite a bit. On the other hand, if the harsh ride is just from the stiff suspension, and you aren't even hitting the bumpstops, then it won't do much at all.

As to whether it would fit with the TTB, I'd certainly think it should, regardless of whether it's a Dana 44HD or a Dana 50. The RSK only interfaces with the frame and the springs, so it wouldn't care what axle is bolted to the springs. But as was already noted, a 2" lift with a TTB also requires the axle pivots to be dropped and a drop pitman arm. Otherwise it'll screw up the steering geometry.

Bob - In reverse order, John gave me a pic of those hubs, so I now understand. Obviously not what I am looking for, but he says the hubs are not expensive. And, it is geared 4.10.

As for the RSK/TTB combo, that's a really good explanation and it makes sense to me. And, it explains why I don't want it.

And, speaking of the clearance between the spring and the bump stop, I just stuck my pointer finger in on the driver's side and couldn't get it all the way in. I'd guess that there is 7/8". And, the bump stop is FLAT on the bottom with crazing that looks like it has been pounded.

[salans7]

Bob - In reverse order, John gave me a pic of those hubs, so I now understand. Obviously not what I am looking for, but he says the hubs are not expensive. And, it is geared 4.10.

As for the RSK/TTB combo, that's a really good explanation and it makes sense to me. And, it explains why I don't want it.

And, speaking of the clearance between the spring and the bump stop, I just stuck my pointer finger in on the driver's side and couldn't get it all the way in. I'd guess that there is 7/8". And, the bump stop is FLAT on the bottom with crazing that looks like it has been pounded.

I follow Sky's Offroad on Instagram, and from what I can tell, their bread and butter is Aeronose trucks and older Toyotas. They are not Ford experts, they are simply machinists so any tech info taken from them should be with a grain of salt.

My earlier comment regarding your existing hangers was directed at the rear hangers. The only difference between your stock rear hangers and the Sky's replacement rear hangers is that they may have two shackle mounting positions for adjustment between different springs (86-97 or 99-04)

As for the D60 dually hubs, it's just a matter of pulling the bearings and spindle lock nuts out, and throwing on a set of the SRW hubs, which can be found all over Ebay. Don't discount a dually D60, they're the same aside from the hubs.

Also, finding a D60 that isn't geared w/4.10's is going to be tough. Probably only going to find that in an SRW F350 without a high GVWR.

Sent you an Email Gary.

[Gary Lewis]

I follow Sky's Offroad on Instagram, and from what I can tell, their bread and butter is Aeronose trucks and older Toyotas. They are not Ford experts, they are simply machinists so any tech info taken from them should be with a grain of salt.

My earlier comment regarding your existing hangers was directed at the rear hangers. The only difference between your stock rear hangers and the Sky's replacement rear hangers is that they may have two shackle mounting positions for adjustment between different springs (86-97 or 99-04)

As for the D60 dually hubs, it's just a matter of pulling the bearings and spindle lock nuts out, and throwing on a set of the SRW hubs, which can be found all over Ebay. Don't discount a dually D60, they're the same aside from the hubs.

Also, finding a D60 that isn't geared w/4.10's is going to be tough. Probably only going to find that in an SRW F350 without a high GVWR.

Sent you an Email Gary.

Shaun - I'm not likely to take their recommendations with any amount of salt. They don't know and don't know they don't know, and that's hard to fix.

Anyway, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that I may have to piece this together. And, while that's not the way I'd like to go, it does open up some possibilities.

For instance, if it doesn't come with springs or the track bar, then I think that I could use SuperDuty springs. And, Sky has the PanHard/track bar for $100 for poly bushings and $120 for Heim joints. Am I right about this?

And, I got the email. As said, I'll follow up. Thanks!