Gary Lewis Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I haven't forgotten the Bullnose, but my Jeep got jealous of all the time I was spending with it. Having appeased the latest round of Jeep problems, it's time to get back into Rosebud. Pulled the engine to change the oil pan, gaskets, seals, and whatever else I find. Tore into it and found the bores to be 4.004" more or less. They could stand to have a bunch of grapes run through them. Pulled a main cap, looks like I will be buying some bearings. Removed the steering box to assess the cracking situation. I'm gonna come up with some sort of reinforcement to stiffen that area, I surely don't think just welding up the crack is going to be enough. The steering shaft was also really sloppy at the rag joint. I'm gonna try to clean up the wiring and plumbing under the hood while I'm in there. Many forums, like this one, don't have the smarts to read the metadata in the file and rotate the image. So you have to do that in an editing app before posting. Grapes run through it? What does that mean? On the crack, that's huge. I found a small one on Dad's truck, and how I dealt with that is shown in this thread on FTE. However, I'm not saying that's the way to do it. I've not even had Dad's truck on the road yet, so don't know that my fix will hold. However, my nephew, a mechanical engineer and a serious mechanic, tells me that the best way to prevent it from happening again after you grind out and weld up the cracks is to ream the bolt holes in the frame out, install heaving wall tubing that has an ID of the diameter of the bolts, and just long enough to prevent the box from touching the frame. In other words, the tube needs to be maybe 1/8" longer than the "width" of the frame. What causes the crack is a poor design wherein the hard edge of the box is directly against the frame, which focuses all of the energy in one spot - a "hot spot". So if you hold the box slightly off the frame you take away the hot spot. But it has to be heavy wall tubing, and it has to be a good fit with the bolts and welded properly to the frame. So it isn't a simple task. And I've not done it - yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpin Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Grapes run through it? What does that mean? I’m guessing cylinder hone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Many forums, like this one, don't have the smarts to read the metadata in the file and rotate the image. So you have to do that in an editing app before posting. Grapes run through it? What does that mean? On the crack, that's huge. I found a small one on Dad's truck, and how I dealt with that is shown in this thread on FTE. However, I'm not saying that's the way to do it. I've not even had Dad's truck on the road yet, so don't know that my fix will hold. However, my nephew, a mechanical engineer and a serious mechanic, tells me that the best way to prevent it from happening again after you grind out and weld up the cracks is to ream the bolt holes in the frame out, install heaving wall tubing that has an ID of the diameter of the bolts, and just long enough to prevent the box from touching the frame. In other words, the tube needs to be maybe 1/8" longer than the "width" of the frame. What causes the crack is a poor design wherein the hard edge of the box is directly against the frame, which focuses all of the energy in one spot - a "hot spot". So if you hold the box slightly off the frame you take away the hot spot. But it has to be heavy wall tubing, and it has to be a good fit with the bolts and welded properly to the frame. So it isn't a simple task. And I've not done it - yet. Gary, I think I made that suggestion back on FTE as well. *humblebrag... Ideally, if the box couldn't shift at all, softening or radiusing the edge of the steering box where it hits the frame may stave off this happening. But the bolts are not reamed to fit, and the frame flexes letting the bolts lose clamping pressure. This is the result of flex, and not being a fixed joint. Doing composite work we always try to eliminate sharp changes is section or square corners. Also look at computer generated FEA 3D parts (like the Chiron brake calipers) they always look organic -like a mangrove root, or blood vessels- because load paths are optimized and stress risers reduced or eliminated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Grapes run through it? What does that mean? I’m guessing cylinder hone. X2 We call them dingle berries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Gary, I think I made that suggestion back on FTE as well. *humblebrag... Ideally, if the box couldn't shift at all, softening or radiusing the edge of the steering box where it hits the frame may stave off this happening. But the bolts are not reamed to fit, and the frame flexes letting the bolts lose clamping pressure. This is the result of flex, and not being a fixed joint. Doing composite work we always try to eliminate sharp changes is section or square corners. Also look at computer generated FEA 3D parts (like the Chiron brake calipers) they always look organic -like a mangrove root, or blood vessels- because load paths are optimized and stress risers reduced or eliminated. Jim - Sorry, it was a long time ago and I hardly remember yesterday. But you probably did suggest that approach way back then. And, as you say, softening/radiusing the steering box would help. Those things are terribly crisp on the edge and with the kind of forces being generated in the steering it is easy to see how the frame would finally crack. Grapes = hone? Ok, I can see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Operator1 Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 Many forums, like this one, don't have the smarts to read the metadata in the file and rotate the image. So you have to do that in an editing app before posting. Grapes run through it? What does that mean? On the crack, that's huge. I found a small one on Dad's truck, and how I dealt with that is shown in this thread on FTE. However, I'm not saying that's the way to do it. I've not even had Dad's truck on the road yet, so don't know that my fix will hold. However, my nephew, a mechanical engineer and a serious mechanic, tells me that the best way to prevent it from happening again after you grind out and weld up the cracks is to ream the bolt holes in the frame out, install heaving wall tubing that has an ID of the diameter of the bolts, and just long enough to prevent the box from touching the frame. In other words, the tube needs to be maybe 1/8" longer than the "width" of the frame. What causes the crack is a poor design wherein the hard edge of the box is directly against the frame, which focuses all of the energy in one spot - a "hot spot". So if you hold the box slightly off the frame you take away the hot spot. But it has to be heavy wall tubing, and it has to be a good fit with the bolts and welded properly to the frame. So it isn't a simple task. And I've not done it - yet. Yep hone, dingle berries, dingle balls, bunch of grapes, people call them all kinds of stuff. The cylinder walls look like they’ve probably seen some ether. They aren’t scarred, but like it’s been run dry. A popular method to stiffen the steering box in the Jeep world is a brace running from the passenger side frame to the bottom of the gear box, clamped around the area where the sector shaft exits. I was thinking of some version of that, but anything can happen when I get a day off to work on it again. The thick tubes through the frame do sound like a better mounting method, but it seems like that would just move the stress point without some additional stiffening to go along with it. I can assure you that whatever I end up with will be some jackleg trash, but hopefully strong trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Yep hone, dingle berries, dingle balls, bunch of grapes, people call them all kinds of stuff. The cylinder walls look like they’ve probably seen some ether. They aren’t scarred, but like it’s been run dry. A popular method to stiffen the steering box in the Jeep world is a brace running from the passenger side frame to the bottom of the gear box, clamped around the area where the sector shaft exits. I was thinking of some version of that, but anything can happen when I get a day off to work on it again. The thick tubes through the frame do sound like a better mounting method, but it seems like that would just move the stress point without some additional stiffening to go along with it. I can assure you that whatever I end up with will be some jackleg trash, but hopefully strong trash. Welding the tubes in prevents the rail from flexing and collapsing. Then you are trying to torque the whole box and not just the liner. I've seen some jackleg crap under Bullnose hoods. How about a tree branch wedged between clutch master cylinder and radiator support, to overcome a torn firewall? It was like this for MONTHS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Welding the tubes in prevents the rail from flexing and collapsing. Then you are trying to torque the whole box and not just the liner. I've seen some jackleg crap under Bullnose hoods. How about a tree branch wedged between clutch master cylinder and radiator support, to overcome a torn firewall? It was like this for MONTHS! Another helpful thing would be to bed the steering box in steel filled epoxy, like you would bed a rifle action and sometimes the barrel. One of the biggest problems is point contact. There's no way the steering box is touching in more than a couple of spots. Here is Gary's thread. https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1307036-dads-frame-and-suspension.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Operator1 Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 One of the biggest problems is point contact. There's no way the steering box is touching in more than a couple of spots. That is how it appears to me, it looks like the box only touches the frame around the bolt holes. Mine already has tubes in the frame. They are just between the frame rail and liner though, not all the way through like Gary described. It also looks like someone has welded on this crack before, but only a little spot at the bottom. I promise not to brace it up with a tree branch:nabble_anim_handshake: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 One of the biggest problems is point contact. There's no way the steering box is touching in more than a couple of spots. That is how it appears to me, it looks like the box only touches the frame around the bolt holes. Mine already has tubes in the frame. They are just between the frame rail and liner though, not all the way through like Gary described. It also looks like someone has welded on this crack before, but only a little spot at the bottom. I promise not to brace it up with a tree branch:nabble_anim_handshake: The "tubes" are probably part of the piece inside the frame. They were on mine. They are just curled pieces of the liner's metal. The tubes I spoke of would be HD tubing that just fits the bolts, and is welded to the frame on both the inside and outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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