Lost and cornfused

[85lebaront2]

Hi Hatrymkrs

First off, my apologies, if I offended you in anyway, But I was just reacting to my actual experience with going to the one-wire HEI system.

I was not willing to do the Duraspark II system cause the 1-wire seemed very easy and (for me) was cheap.

After getting the HEI and having to get a relay so the HEI would be fed a true 12V, And Gary was the one to show me how to wire it, the HEI didn't last 1 driving season, the module popped, leaving me on the side of the road. A tow home and a call the company, got a new module, got it running, for about 4 weeks, then it starting popping and backfiring, loss of power. It died again, but I got it back to "sad" life.

Called them again and got a whole new HEI Dizzy, threw the first on in the trash, installed the second. It ran OK for 1 season and started the same "popping" again.

Pissed, I ripped it out and with the help of Gary and others here, I sourced a Duraspark II, Dizzy and module, along with the correct harness.

Wired it all up and it's been running great for 3+ years now!

My comment "buy cheap get cheap" is really commenting on me.

I leaned my lesson, and just don't want anyone else stranded with lower quality stuff.

Guess I'm a believer of NOS Ford parts that can run and run.

Besides a duraspark dizzy "looks" better (to me) that that big honking HEI that I had.

Hope this helps.

Ron

I am going to add my experience with Chineseum parts. I will not buy any of these eBay specials. I made my living for a number of years first in my own shop and later working in a Dodge, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, MG and Dodge Import dealership. I learned that OEM parts or at least OEM quality is more important than price. I had some aftermarket, no-name parts that were every bit as good as OEM. If you had walked in my shop and I didn't know you, you would get a fair price, a warranty on the work and if requested OEM parts, which I did stock in depth, if I knew you, you would get the OEM equivalent parts at a substantial saving. If you were just looking for parts same thing. Since I guaranteed the repairs I was not going to use something that would come back to bite me.

Specific example, Ford 2100 2 barrel carburetors, we had to stock 3 different name brand kits due to the volume of work, Motorcraft CT499D, Carter 902-857D and Standard 77-857D. These sold at the time for around $7.50 retail, I also had the identical kits in a plain poly bag that I payed $2.00 each for. If I used one of these on a customers car, I would charge $7.50 for it, if you were a good customer and wanted one. $3.50 is what you would pay.

There was absolutely no way I could or would use inferior quality parts. This is the reason for my comments, that and trying to find parts for many cheap aftermarket equipment with no support.

[Ford F834]

The pic with the vacuum that I referred to was the one Gary posted. I was confused on how to work the vacuum advance if my current system doesn't have it. I never found any pictures of the ones without the vacuum hook up, and that was my befuddlement. It makes sense that it will need some sort of means to know when to advance/retard/adjust. Please bear with me while I learn this stuff.

I attempted to dismantle the air pump, and while doing so a tone of grey/black plastic looking pieces fell out. I will look at it again.

I have no problem putting it back to stock or using the DS-II. I have been reading, and it seemed simpler and less costly (this includes time spent searching junk yard sites that never tell me anything) with the one wire hook up. However, I was never sold on this as being the way to go, and I only want a reliable and strong engine when this is done.

Thanks for the video embedding help, Gary. I remember seeing that as a child and always thinking it was ridiculous and awesome at the same time. Classic Chuck movie!

Thank you all for the help.

William

Hello, William, if you are still following I hope you will reconsider leaving. I joined Gary’s forum because I knew the members here were good people. Knowledgeable about Fords, yes, but also supportive, and generous with their time to help others. Some folks may get a little passionate about their side of a debate, but none of the regulars here that I have come to know online are unkind or rude. I think that the responses in this thread demonstrate that the family of members does care, and has a strong moral compass about how we treat one another.

[Hstrymkrs]

I am going to add my experience with Chineseum parts. I will not buy any of these eBay specials. I made my living for a number of years first in my own shop and later working in a Dodge, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, MG and Dodge Import dealership. I learned that OEM parts or at least OEM quality is more important than price. I had some aftermarket, no-name parts that were every bit as good as OEM. If you had walked in my shop and I didn't know you, you would get a fair price, a warranty on the work and if requested OEM parts, which I did stock in depth, if I knew you, you would get the OEM equivalent parts at a substantial saving. If you were just looking for parts same thing. Since I guaranteed the repairs I was not going to use something that would come back to bite me.

Specific example, Ford 2100 2 barrel carburetors, we had to stock 3 different name brand kits due to the volume of work, Motorcraft CT499D, Carter 902-857D and Standard 77-857D. These sold at the time for around $7.50 retail, I also had the identical kits in a plain poly bag that I payed $2.00 each for. If I used one of these on a customers car, I would charge $7.50 for it, if you were a good customer and wanted one. $3.50 is what you would pay.

There was absolutely no way I could or would use inferior quality parts. This is the reason for my comments, that and trying to find parts for many cheap aftermarket equipment with no support.

Out of respect for Gary and a few others, I would like to comment. Attempting to gain knowledge is often difficult when researching something that is long past it's prime.

There are no hard feelings on my end, I just don't want to scroll and read through insults, intended or not, to find an answer. That is what all the other forums provide.

I appreciate those who are trying to help. I will make the disclaimer that I do not buy cheap stuff and hope it works. I do not take the easy way out and hope it works. I research and buy quality on a limited budget. All of these "hobbies" are money puts if we let them become one.

The D.U.I. distibutor is made by Performance Distributors, and they are made in the USA from what I read. They tune each distributor when it is ordered to the specs given them by the purchaser based upon engine and mods. This way, the timing curve is set for the specific engine and its cam, carburator, etc. They warranty their work and they are located in Tennessee. It isn't cheap, but I must be honest in that it seems a better option than raiding a junk yard for 30+ year old parts. I have nothing against the DS-II or the OEM for these year models. I will admit they are large, but there is plenty of room. In the end, either option is a gamble hence the research.

I am not thinned skin, and people are free to disagree with me. No need to walk on eggshells. I just don't have the time for pettiness and put down comments.

Again, there are no hard feelings or ill will. I just enjoy working on vehicles and helping people. Something I hope we all agree on.

William

 

[Gary Lewis]

Out of respect for Gary and a few others, I would like to comment. Attempting to gain knowledge is often difficult when researching something that is long past it's prime.

There are no hard feelings on my end, I just don't want to scroll and read through insults, intended or not, to find an answer. That is what all the other forums provide.

I appreciate those who are trying to help. I will make the disclaimer that I do not buy cheap stuff and hope it works. I do not take the easy way out and hope it works. I research and buy quality on a limited budget. All of these "hobbies" are money puts if we let them become one.

The D.U.I. distibutor is made by Performance Distributors, and they are made in the USA from what I read. They tune each distributor when it is ordered to the specs given them by the purchaser based upon engine and mods. This way, the timing curve is set for the specific engine and its cam, carburator, etc. They warranty their work and they are located in Tennessee. It isn't cheap, but I must be honest in that it seems a better option than raiding a junk yard for 30+ year old parts. I have nothing against the DS-II or the OEM for these year models. I will admit they are large, but there is plenty of room. In the end, either option is a gamble hence the research.

I am not thinned skin, and people are free to disagree with me. No need to walk on eggshells. I just don't have the time for pettiness and put down comments.

Again, there are no hard feelings or ill will. I just enjoy working on vehicles and helping people. Something I hope we all agree on.

William

William - We are on the same page. All around.

From what I know of DUI, they are a good company with good parts. Tim Meyer was excited to be working with them, and although that didn't pan out it wasn't because of their parts being inferior. So finding someone that dials in the dizzy to your engine and has good parts is a plus. I say go for it.

Which then begs the question of whether or not you understood Jim/ArdWrknTrk's directions on how to wire up the relay? If not, I can draw it up if that would help.

[85lebaront2]

William - We are on the same page. All around.

From what I know of DUI, they are a good company with good parts. Tim Meyer was excited to be working with them, and although that didn't pan out it wasn't because of their parts being inferior. So finding someone that dials in the dizzy to your engine and has good parts is a plus. I say go for it.

Which then begs the question of whether or not you understood Jim/ArdWrknTrk's directions on how to wire up the relay? If not, I can draw it up if that would help.

Good that you are going with an American built unit. One thing to examine, I do not know if it applies to the six cylinder version or not. My son was at the Carlisle All Ford meet a couple of years ago and someone up there had one of the HEI units on a carbureted 460. It quit on him in the parking lot. In order to make a "universal" unit for the Ford V8s, the distributor drive was a two piece shaft with a short lower piece with the gear and oil pump drive and a slot for the distributor shaft. The roll pin in the lower had sheared. Ford frequently used double wall pins on theirs.

Good luck with it, definitely you will need the relay for the current draw of an HEI system, I had to put one on a friends six cylinder Chevy he converted to a junkyard HEI unit.

Carburetor, as Gary pointed out, you will need to either "neuter" the entire system or remove it. If you can find an early (pre-emission) carburetor for it, they are larger than the emission ones. It isn't so much external as it is a larger venturii and possibly throttle body.

If you look at the EVTM for 1986 trucks, and 1985 is probably very similar, under ignition systems, you will see that there is an unresisted 12V feed used on the TFI ignition and a resisted feed for the DS-II along with a cranking bypass unresisted 12V feed to the DS-II coil. The TFI feed is the one you need and use it to control the relay, but, be sure it doesn't lose power in the start position. If you use the paired feed to the TFI system it has two power sources due to the two different ignition systems, the red with light green and the white with light blue are tied together in the TFI (EEC) harness, on a DS-II they are separate as the coil is fed through a resistance wire between the white/light blue and red/light green wires in the main harness, If you keep enough of the exiting harness to the TFI coil feed and use that wire for the relay control it will work just like the TFI or DS-II systems as far as powering the ignition system.

[Gary Lewis]

Good that you are going with an American built unit. One thing to examine, I do not know if it applies to the six cylinder version or not. My son was at the Carlisle All Ford meet a couple of years ago and someone up there had one of the HEI units on a carbureted 460. It quit on him in the parking lot. In order to make a "universal" unit for the Ford V8s, the distributor drive was a two piece shaft with a short lower piece with the gear and oil pump drive and a slot for the distributor shaft. The roll pin in the lower had sheared. Ford frequently used double wall pins on theirs.

Good luck with it, definitely you will need the relay for the current draw of an HEI system, I had to put one on a friends six cylinder Chevy he converted to a junkyard HEI unit.

Carburetor, as Gary pointed out, you will need to either "neuter" the entire system or remove it. If you can find an early (pre-emission) carburetor for it, they are larger than the emission ones. It isn't so much external as it is a larger venturii and possibly throttle body.

If you look at the EVTM for 1986 trucks, and 1985 is probably very similar, under ignition systems, you will see that there is an unresisted 12V feed used on the TFI ignition and a resisted feed for the DS-II along with a cranking bypass unresisted 12V feed to the DS-II coil. The TFI feed is the one you need and use it to control the relay, but, be sure it doesn't lose power in the start position. If you use the paired feed to the TFI system it has two power sources due to the two different ignition systems, the red with light green and the white with light blue are tied together in the TFI (EEC) harness, on a DS-II they are separate as the coil is fed through a resistance wire between the white/light blue and red/light green wires in the main harness, If you keep enough of the exiting harness to the TFI coil feed and use that wire for the relay control it will work just like the TFI or DS-II systems as far as powering the ignition system.

Bill - You raised an interesting point, and one I think we need to capture on a page on the website not just here in the forum. And that is that the white/light blue wire has 12v in Run, regardless of which ignition system is in the truck, meaning EEC or DS-II. So, it is the right place to get power for things like the choke heater or the relay for a one-wire ignition.

But before I start writing this up, including a relay diagram, let's make sure I understand what you are saying and vice versa. Below is the 1985 DS-II wiring diagram, with the W/LB wire, Ckt 20, circled in red. In this case that wire is ahead of C321, the other side of which a red wire that is going to power the DS-II module. (The 1986 diagram is essentially the same, but I've chosen the 1985 as it shows an option for the idiot light, which the '86 doesn't since they were eliminated for '86.)

And below that there's the 1985 EEC wiring, again from the '85 EVTM, for the same reason. And again I've circled the white/light blue wire, although this time it is after C321 since the color carried through that connector. Anyway, it is going to the coil in the EEC system, and this was also true for the other engines with EEC.

The bottom line of this is that I believe the white/light blue wire is the go-to source of 12v in Run, regardless of what ignition system is currently in a Bullnose truck. So it is good to run small-current things like the choke heater, or to pull in a relay to power large-current things like an HEI ignition.

If we all agree with this then it would seem like a page to 'splain this and provide a wiring diagram for said relay and ignition would be helpful. THOUGHTS?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Bill - You raised an interesting point, and one I think we need to capture on a page on the website not just here in the forum. And that is that the white/light blue wire has 12v in Run, regardless of which ignition system is in the truck, meaning EEC or DS-II. So, it is the right place to get power for things like the choke heater or the relay for a one-wire ignition.

But before I start writing this up, including a relay diagram, let's make sure I understand what you are saying and vice versa. Below is the 1985 DS-II wiring diagram, with the W/LB wire, Ckt 20, circled in red. In this case that wire is ahead of C321, the other side of which a red wire that is going to power the DS-II module. (The 1986 diagram is essentially the same, but I've chosen the 1985 as it shows an option for the idiot light, which the '86 doesn't since they were eliminated for '86.)

And below that there's the 1985 EEC wiring, again from the '85 EVTM, for the same reason. And again I've circled the white/light blue wire, although this time it is after C321 since the color carried through that connector. Anyway, it is going to the coil in the EEC system, and this was also true for the other engines with EEC.

The bottom line of this is that I believe the white/light blue wire is the go-to source of 12v in Run, regardless of what ignition system is currently in a Bullnose truck. So it is good to run small-current things like the choke heater, or to pull in a relay to power large-current things like an HEI ignition.

If we all agree with this then it would seem like a page to 'splain this and provide a wiring diagram for said relay and ignition would be helpful. THOUGHTS?

It's good that the EVTM shows how the red and white wires swap at the 321 Duraspark connector.

I know that this is overlooked elsewhere.

Thank you for putting in all the effort to document this Gary.

[Gary Lewis]

It's good that the EVTM shows how the red and white wires swap at the 321 Duraspark connector.

I know that this is overlooked elsewhere.

Thank you for putting in all the effort to document this Gary.

That kind of thing is really why the website got started. We answered the same question over and over again on FTE, but didn't have a good way to document the answers so we could refer people to them instead of recreating the wheel.

Chris tried to create a new way of doing documentation but couldn't get the powers-that-be to approve it. So I started the website as I'd rather answer the question once and improve the answer as we learn rather than to recreate it over and over again with different variations that confuse people. And now, 529 web pages later and growing rapidly, we have the Bullnose bible.

[85lebaront2]

Bill - You raised an interesting point, and one I think we need to capture on a page on the website not just here in the forum. And that is that the white/light blue wire has 12v in Run, regardless of which ignition system is in the truck, meaning EEC or DS-II. So, it is the right place to get power for things like the choke heater or the relay for a one-wire ignition.

But before I start writing this up, including a relay diagram, let's make sure I understand what you are saying and vice versa. Below is the 1985 DS-II wiring diagram, with the W/LB wire, Ckt 20, circled in red. In this case that wire is ahead of C321, the other side of which a red wire that is going to power the DS-II module. (The 1986 diagram is essentially the same, but I've chosen the 1985 as it shows an option for the idiot light, which the '86 doesn't since they were eliminated for '86.)

And below that there's the 1985 EEC wiring, again from the '85 EVTM, for the same reason. And again I've circled the white/light blue wire, although this time it is after C321 since the color carried through that connector. Anyway, it is going to the coil in the EEC system, and this was also true for the other engines with EEC.

The bottom line of this is that I believe the white/light blue wire is the go-to source of 12v in Run, regardless of what ignition system is currently in a Bullnose truck. So it is good to run small-current things like the choke heater, or to pull in a relay to power large-current things like an HEI ignition.

If we all agree with this then it would seem like a page to 'splain this and provide a wiring diagram for said relay and ignition would be helpful. THOUGHTS?

Gary, the problem is, the W/LB, loses 12V power in Start, and the R/LG receives it, upon returning to Run, R/LG now is only fed through the resistor from the W/LB wire. In Start the W/LB would receive resisted 12V feed from the R/LG wire.

For a choke heater source the W/LB wire would be great, for a reliable one wire ignition system, you should use the TFI setup where W/LB and R/LG are tied together to insure reliable 12V feed to the ignition module in both Start and Run.

Apparently this was to keep from "cross feeding" the DS-II system? As for idiot lights, I thought I had a "GEN" light on Darth. The 1996 cluster has both the "ALT" light and voltmeter except it is a battery symbol.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, the problem is, the W/LB, loses 12V power in Start, and the R/LG receives it, upon returning to Run, R/LG now is only fed through the resistor from the W/LB wire. In Start the W/LB would receive resisted 12V feed from the R/LG wire.

For a choke heater source the W/LB wire would be great, for a reliable one wire ignition system, you should use the TFI setup where W/LB and R/LG are tied together to insure reliable 12V feed to the ignition module in both Start and Run.

Apparently this was to keep from "cross feeding" the DS-II system? As for idiot lights, I thought I had a "GEN" light on Darth. The 1996 cluster has both the "ALT" light and voltmeter except it is a battery symbol.

Bill - I agree that the white/light blue loses 12v in Start, but it is still fed from the ballast resistor, so should have plenty of power to pull in a Bosch relay. Right? Especially when the white/light blue is no longer powering the coil and/or ignition module.

As for what you have "in" Darth on the dash, I do not know. But if I get everything back in this box I'm wrestling with, you'll have pretty parts under the hood soon.