Ford F834 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 There are advantages to the HEI module, but there are also disadvantages. One is the lack of ignition retard when cranking. Not all DS-II modules have that feature - it was designed in by Ford, but not all manufacturers have included it. In fact, I have two blue-grommet modules on Big Blue and only one of them has it, and the engine struggles to crank when it is the one in service, but cranks easily when the other is being used. Another disadvantage is because the HEI module pulls more current than the DS-II module does, so it needs to have new wiring run instead of using the small factory wiring. In fact, it really should have at least a #12 wire, and my reading says that GM used #10 wire to it from the factory. And that will require a relay as the wiring to the ignition switch on a Ford isn't nearly that large. So I’m hearing that it may possibly provide better reliability... but with harder starting and require upgraded wiring and a relay to be done correctly... does not seem terribly convincing if it does not provide any tangible benefit to the ignition efficiency or tuning 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 So I’m hearing that it may possibly provide better reliability... but with harder starting and require upgraded wiring and a relay to be done correctly... does not seem terribly convincing if it does not provide any tangible benefit to the ignition efficiency or tuning 🤷♂️ Since what the ignition module is doing is to take the negative side of the coil to ground and then letting it go to cause the spark, unless you change out the positive wiring to the coil and/or the coil itself it isn't likely that you'll get better spark. Let's go back to the schematic you shared. As long as the same coil and ballast resistor is used you'll get essentially the same spark regardless of what module you use to trigger it. But, if the HEI module can handle more current w/o overheating as the DS-II module does, then you could change out the coil and ballast to get a stronger spark. However, I don't know how much current an HEI module can take, so don't know what is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternaltruck Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 Gents, Thank you for all the insight provided! it means the world to me! It's really exciting to complete the conversion because it will take a lot of wires out of the engine bay, and I really like that! When I first purchased the truck, I got a headache every time I popped the hood and saw that big mess of wires. I've only learned recently that all those wires are there because of the feedback carb, and to have those wires gone would truly make the engine bay much more appealing to the eye(at least in my mind). I've been doing a lot of work on old red recently. She has a thousand mile trip ahead of her, and I've recently been working double time to get her where she needs to be. I have until early February to get her good to go, and good to go is just replacing the breaks, coil springs, tie rods, wind shield seal, and the conversion, But I have the time for more than just that, so I've been working as efficiently as possible to maximize the time I have left where I currently live. I'm going to go to my local salvage yard to pick up a carter non feedback to rebuild this weekend. I'm still waiting for more feedback(pun intended) for the best option to purchase. I'm hoping I'll have my bearings by the end of his week, but if not, I have work that will keep me busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Gents, Thank you for all the insight provided! it means the world to me! It's really exciting to complete the conversion because it will take a lot of wires out of the engine bay, and I really like that! When I first purchased the truck, I got a headache every time I popped the hood and saw that big mess of wires. I've only learned recently that all those wires are there because of the feedback carb, and to have those wires gone would truly make the engine bay much more appealing to the eye(at least in my mind). I've been doing a lot of work on old red recently. She has a thousand mile trip ahead of her, and I've recently been working double time to get her where she needs to be. I have until early February to get her good to go, and good to go is just replacing the breaks, coil springs, tie rods, wind shield seal, and the conversion, But I have the time for more than just that, so I've been working as efficiently as possible to maximize the time I have left where I currently live. I'm going to go to my local salvage yard to pick up a carter non feedback to rebuild this weekend. I'm still waiting for more feedback(pun intended) for the best option to purchase. I'm hoping I'll have my bearings by the end of his week, but if not, I have work that will keep me busy. I understand the excitement on the cleanup. On the '82 I had I did the research and learned that all of the wires associated with the computer could be removed and did so, making a huge difference under the hood. But, again, you need to confirm that to be the case with yours. I'm pretty sure it is, but just check to make sure. The way I wound up removing things was by cutting the wiring near the computer in the cab, with the battery disconnected, and then gently pulling those wires, a few at a time, into the engine compartment. Then I unwrapped whatever bundles had to be unwrapped to get those wires exposed - all the way to whatever sending unit or actuator they went to. Then I removed the actuator or sending unit, plugged any holes, and put the stuff in a tote. When I was done I had a large tote full. On the ignition system, the easiest way in my opinion is to go with a DS-II setup. You'll need to find a DS-II wiring harness off a truck in the salvage, or buy one off the internet. And, while I'm on that, all the DS-II harnesses are electrically the same, regardless of engine. However, each engine family has the sending units and distributor in different places, so the wires to them are different lengths. So, it would be best to find one for your engine, but if not you can lengthen or shorten the wires as needed. And, if you find a truck with the DS-II distributor and module at the same time, you'll have a "kit" and it'll go right together. On the distributor, there were surely minor differences in the advance curve for different setups, like gear ratio, automatic vs manual transmission, etc. But the major difference is whether or not the truck had EGR. EGR requires a lot more advance due to the slow burn speed of the air/fuel mix with the inert gas mixed in, so if you are going to retain the EGR setup you should find a dizzy for a truck with EGR. But if you are going to delete or block off the EGR then you want a dizzy from a truck w/o EGR so you get an advance curve that will be close to what you need. On the other hand, there are two HEI approaches. One is as Pete suggested - going with an HEI module either in a Ford or Ford-looking distributor or mounted externally - all of which will then use the stock coil. The other is to go with a one-wire distributor, which has both the HEI module as well as the coil mounted inside the distributor. The tip-off is a GM looking distributor, meaning a much larger cap. But, the wiring is easier - you run a large wire from the battery through a fuse to a relay, and pull the relay in with the ignition switch, probably with the wire that would have gone to the DS-II module for power. There's no need to find the DS-II harness, and no need for the DS-II module. And, in this approach you can probably specify the advance curve you want - with or without EGR. We can help you with whatever approach you chose to take, but I just wanted you to be aware of the options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzFace2 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Gents, Thank you for all the insight provided! it means the world to me! It's really exciting to complete the conversion because it will take a lot of wires out of the engine bay, and I really like that! When I first purchased the truck, I got a headache every time I popped the hood and saw that big mess of wires. I've only learned recently that all those wires are there because of the feedback carb, and to have those wires gone would truly make the engine bay much more appealing to the eye(at least in my mind). I've been doing a lot of work on old red recently. She has a thousand mile trip ahead of her, and I've recently been working double time to get her where she needs to be. I have until early February to get her good to go, and good to go is just replacing the breaks, coil springs, tie rods, wind shield seal, and the conversion, But I have the time for more than just that, so I've been working as efficiently as possible to maximize the time I have left where I currently live. I'm going to go to my local salvage yard to pick up a carter non feedback to rebuild this weekend. I'm still waiting for more feedback(pun intended) for the best option to purchase. I'm hoping I'll have my bearings by the end of his week, but if not, I have work that will keep me busy. What ever you get the carb from you can get the dist. from also. If lucky it will be a DSII system. Even if it has points you can do a Pertronix kit to it and then you don't need to deal with the DSII box & wiring harness that is hard to find. The only thing if it is a points dist. check for shaft play side to side up top. With points pushing on the shaft they can get some wear and end up with side ways play. Dave ---- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetesPonies Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 So I’m hearing that it may possibly provide better reliability... but with harder starting and require upgraded wiring and a relay to be done correctly... does not seem terribly convincing if it does not provide any tangible benefit to the ignition efficiency or tuning 🤷♂️ I didn't change any wiring to use my HEI module. I also didn't have any starting issues. Here it is in my '84 Bronco I used to own. http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL731/2966983/22064731/364979935.jpg Then covered with factory cover. This was where the relays were mounted originally. http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL731/2966983/22064731/364979876.jpg It always started very easily and ran great. This had a feedback system to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I didn't change any wiring to use my HEI module. I also didn't have any starting issues. Here it is in my '84 Bronco I used to own. http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL731/2966983/22064731/364979935.jpg Then covered with factory cover. This was where the relays were mounted originally. http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL731/2966983/22064731/364979876.jpg It always started very easily and ran great. This had a feedback system to start with. I think the retard feature covers a bunch of initial advance on the timing. So if you run something close to stock timing then it probably isn't required. But, I'm running something like 14 degrees BTDC on Big Blue, and that causes it to kick back when trying to start w/o the retard feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1986F150Six Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I think the retard feature covers a bunch of initial advance on the timing. So if you run something close to stock timing then it probably isn't required. But, I'm running something like 14 degrees BTDC on Big Blue, and that causes it to kick back when trying to start w/o the retard feature. Regarding the resistance to initial starting, as mentioned by Jonathan and Gary, in my opinion, this is more for V8s than the six cylinder, especially if stock [~8.0 CR]. The static timing on my engine is 16 degrees BTDC and there is no problem with starting [no dragging or kick-back]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1986F150Six Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Regarding the resistance to initial starting, as mentioned by Jonathan and Gary, in my opinion, this is more for V8s than the six cylinder, especially if stock [~8.0 CR]. The static timing on my engine is 16 degrees BTDC and there is no problem with starting [no dragging or kick-back]. Some have suggested installing a push button switch which disables the ignition while depressed. One can press the button [left hand?] while turning the ignition key to start. The engine will spin [momentum] and the disable button can be released and the engine will fire away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1986F150Six Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 On the advice of the straight six guru Frenchtown Flyer he bought a Carter YF carburetor for a 1970 F350. That age and GVWR meant that it was calibrated for a NON- EGR application. If you have deleted your smog pump this is the carb to order. /quote> Carter YF 4901 S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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