Starting and Alternator

[Mekerek]

I have a couple of questions for the knowledge here..

I have a very old, very crusty alternator right now, I think it's the original 60/70 amp that came in the car, no idea, can't find any markings on it so far but, it's not quite enough power. I have read the threads here and I am unsure of the upgrade path. Does it matter what it is right now? Should I just go to 2G at least (but seems a fire risk in the connector), if not 3G (but I don't want to replace anything in the wiring like the altmeter etc). Thoughts?

The second question is the car is difficult to start, sometimes taking 2 or 3 tries, and then it will die the first time I put it in gear and don't just go. If I drive it for 5 or more minutes, it doesn't die, and it seems to start right up after that. Where should I start diagnosing? I am not sure if it's the carb or timing or something else. I just need to start somewhere and not sure where.

Thanks.

[Gary Lewis]

In reverse order, the starting issue is probably because the choke isn't adjusted correctly. I'm guessing, but it sounds like the choke isn't coming on quite far enough. But that assumes that you are pushing the throttle down part way to set the choke before trying to start it when the engine is "cold".

If you have been pushing the throttle down part way then let's discuss adjusting the choke. When the engine is cold, meaning it hasn't been started today, pull the air cleaner and then open the throttle part way and let up on the throttle. The choke plate on the top of the carb should close almost all the way. On the choke housing there are three screws that hold the black plastic cap, and there's an index on the carb with a mark on the cap. Note where the mark is on the index, then loosen the screws just enough to let you turn the cap. Do not remove the screws. Then turn the cap clockwise, I think, one notch on the index which should try to close the choke plate a bit tighter. If it opens the choke plate then that's the wrong direction. With the cap turned one notch to close the choke a bit snug up the screws, put the air cleaner on, and start the engine. Did it start better? If so but it isn't yet quite right you may have to give it another notch.

On the alternator quesions, don't go to a 2G. They really don't provide more power and do have the propensity to burn vehicles to the ground, so that's not a good option.

The 3G is far better, and it isn't hard to swap to it. But, we are in the middle of trying out a new way of wiring that should make it easier, so if you can wait until some time in July we should have this ironed out.

Basically you'll need to buy the alternator and the cables that go with it, which is easily done. And you'll have to have your ammeter, assuming you have one, converted to a volt meter. Then disconnect the two halves of connector 610, take the alternator side to the bench and make some wiring changes.

Are you ok to do basic wiring, like soldering and protecting connects with heat shrink tubing? That's a requirement in this unless we can find someone to make the harness for you and the rest of the world.

[Mekerek]

In reverse order, the starting issue is probably because the choke isn't adjusted correctly. I'm guessing, but it sounds like the choke isn't coming on quite far enough. But that assumes that you are pushing the throttle down part way to set the choke before trying to start it when the engine is "cold".

If you have been pushing the throttle down part way then let's discuss adjusting the choke. When the engine is cold, meaning it hasn't been started today, pull the air cleaner and then open the throttle part way and let up on the throttle. The choke plate on the top of the carb should close almost all the way. On the choke housing there are three screws that hold the black plastic cap, and there's an index on the carb with a mark on the cap. Note where the mark is on the index, then loosen the screws just enough to let you turn the cap. Do not remove the screws. Then turn the cap clockwise, I think, one notch on the index which should try to close the choke plate a bit tighter. If it opens the choke plate then that's the wrong direction. With the cap turned one notch to close the choke a bit snug up the screws, put the air cleaner on, and start the engine. Did it start better? If so but it isn't yet quite right you may have to give it another notch.

On the alternator quesions, don't go to a 2G. They really don't provide more power and do have the propensity to burn vehicles to the ground, so that's not a good option.

The 3G is far better, and it isn't hard to swap to it. But, we are in the middle of trying out a new way of wiring that should make it easier, so if you can wait until some time in July we should have this ironed out.

Basically you'll need to buy the alternator and the cables that go with it, which is easily done. And you'll have to have your ammeter, assuming you have one, converted to a volt meter. Then disconnect the two halves of connector 610, take the alternator side to the bench and make some wiring changes.

Are you ok to do basic wiring, like soldering and protecting connects with heat shrink tubing? That's a requirement in this unless we can find someone to make the harness for you and the rest of the world.

I will try the adjustments for the starting, thanks for the guidance.

As for the alternator. Yes I can do wiring and heat shrinking. I also have used in many cases Solderstick for this (USA not knockoffs). I can run a wire if that's it.

This is my instrument cluster (borrowed pic but accurate), I believe that is annmeter. I have seen updated instructions to add tachometer and have been considering that also. If I goto a volt meter, there isn't one that works in the existing cluster, so I would have to do something like below and just leave the cluster one unhooked.

All told, if this isn't that hard, mostly my goal is to up the power and not burn my truck to the ground. So if 2g is doing precisely that (which is what I understood) and 3G can be done and not do that, looks like that is where I should go. I assume this means I don't care what it is currently and I would goto one of the 200amp (?) 3G and do some light wiring and a voltmeter on the column.

I already have a hydraulic hauling booster for the brakes that's running a break line through the firewall I need to remove as it's not operational anymore and it's just an additional bleed/failure point, so if I wait on that, I might be able to use that to get through the firewall where it does and go up into the instruments.

Yeah I can wait and if you like let me know I can try to follow what you come up with to make sure it's clear, I am technical (computers) but not a mechanic (physical) so might be a good test target and happy to do so.

[Mekerek]

I will try the adjustments for the starting, thanks for the guidance.

As for the alternator. Yes I can do wiring and heat shrinking. I also have used in many cases Solderstick for this (USA not knockoffs). I can run a wire if that's it.

This is my instrument cluster (borrowed pic but accurate), I believe that is annmeter. I have seen updated instructions to add tachometer and have been considering that also. If I goto a volt meter, there isn't one that works in the existing cluster, so I would have to do something like below and just leave the cluster one unhooked.

All told, if this isn't that hard, mostly my goal is to up the power and not burn my truck to the ground. So if 2g is doing precisely that (which is what I understood) and 3G can be done and not do that, looks like that is where I should go. I assume this means I don't care what it is currently and I would goto one of the 200amp (?) 3G and do some light wiring and a voltmeter on the column.

I already have a hydraulic hauling booster for the brakes that's running a break line through the firewall I need to remove as it's not operational anymore and it's just an additional bleed/failure point, so if I wait on that, I might be able to use that to get through the firewall where it does and go up into the instruments.

Yeah I can wait and if you like let me know I can try to follow what you come up with to make sure it's clear, I am technical (computers) but not a mechanic (physical) so might be a good test target and happy to do so.

Oh one thing that occurred to me. I was looking at upgrading my lights, because they are about worthless, even at night I have to get out to validate they are on, that's how dim they are. Anyhow, Daniel Stern has someone who makes harnesses for his light kits, you might contact him, and perhaps they could help with a harness that can be sold on a 'as needed' basis for your effort.

[Gary Lewis]

I will try the adjustments for the starting, thanks for the guidance.

As for the alternator. Yes I can do wiring and heat shrinking. I also have used in many cases Solderstick for this (USA not knockoffs). I can run a wire if that's it.

This is my instrument cluster (borrowed pic but accurate), I believe that is annmeter. I have seen updated instructions to add tachometer and have been considering that also. If I goto a volt meter, there isn't one that works in the existing cluster, so I would have to do something like below and just leave the cluster one unhooked.

All told, if this isn't that hard, mostly my goal is to up the power and not burn my truck to the ground. So if 2g is doing precisely that (which is what I understood) and 3G can be done and not do that, looks like that is where I should go. I assume this means I don't care what it is currently and I would goto one of the 200amp (?) 3G and do some light wiring and a voltmeter on the column.

I already have a hydraulic hauling booster for the brakes that's running a break line through the firewall I need to remove as it's not operational anymore and it's just an additional bleed/failure point, so if I wait on that, I might be able to use that to get through the firewall where it does and go up into the instruments.

Yeah I can wait and if you like let me know I can try to follow what you come up with to make sure it's clear, I am technical (computers) but not a mechanic (physical) so might be a good test target and happy to do so.

Ok, if you can wire then you can do everything yourself save for one thing - the ammeter. You either need to disconnect it, and I sure don't like a dead gauge, or have Bob/Rocketman convert it to a voltmeter. That's my strong recommendation as a voltmeter is much better than an ammeter.

As for what alternator to go with, a stock 3G is good for 130 amps at full tilt and will put out over 100 amps at idle. So unless you have some serious loads in your truck you should be fine with a stock unit.

You might want to read the thread Big Brother is going 3G. In that you'll see the diagram below, which is the latest iteration of the schematics. And you might want to read the thread Alternator Upgrade Related Questions (was One-Wire Alternator Questions). Both those guys are using that new schematic.

Basically you unplug the alternator/regulator side of C610, take it to the bench, and make the alterations. Plug it in, mount the alternator & hook it and the ground up, swap the ammeter for the voltmeter, and you are done.

 

[Gary Lewis]

Oh one thing that occurred to me. I was looking at upgrading my lights, because they are about worthless, even at night I have to get out to validate they are on, that's how dim they are. Anyhow, Daniel Stern has someone who makes harnesses for his light kits, you might contact him, and perhaps they could help with a harness that can be sold on a 'as needed' basis for your effort.

If we could find the right connector for C610 we could have someone fab up a new harness. But so far we've not found a source for the connector. So at this point we are just modifying existing harnii to create the 3G wiring. But thanks for the suggestion.

As for your headlights, my friend Daniel Stern has the right stuff to fix them. I bought Koito shells with Tungsram +120 bulbs from him and built my own relay harness using the ceramic connectors he sells. Made a huge difference! Recently had someone riding with me at night and he noticed how strong the headlights are - without me saying anything.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Ok, if you can wire then you can do everything yourself save for one thing - the ammeter. You either need to disconnect it, and I sure don't like a dead gauge, or have Bob/Rocketman convert it to a voltmeter. That's my strong recommendation as a voltmeter is much better than an ammeter.

As for what alternator to go with, a stock 3G is good for 130 amps at full tilt and will put out over 100 amps at idle. So unless you have some serious loads in your truck you should be fine with a stock unit.

You might want to read the thread Big Brother is going 3G. In that you'll see the diagram below, which is the latest iteration of the schematics. And you might want to read the thread Alternator Upgrade Related Questions (was One-Wire Alternator Questions). Both those guys are using that new schematic.

Basically you unplug the alternator/regulator side of C610, take it to the bench, and make the alterations. Plug it in, mount the alternator & hook it and the ground up, swap the ammeter for the voltmeter, and you are done.

Gary,

A 95A 3G is good for 130

A 130 is good for 165 or so before the heat starts to break down the diode board and winding insulation.

A 95A is probably the best fit for most people who aren't running electric fans, heated seats or a big stereo.

 

[Gary Lewis]

Gary,

A 95A 3G is good for 130

A 130 is good for 165 or so before the heat starts to break down the diode board and winding insulation.

A 95A is probably the best fit for most people who aren't running electric fans, heated seats or a big stereo.

Jim - Good point. I forgot that they were just rated at 95 and 130 amps continuous, but they put out a lot more than that for a while. Here's the DB chart on your own 130. And, as you know but Mekerek might not, the factory alternator for a 460 was "geared" at 3.0:1. So that 6000 alternator RPM is only 2000 engine RPM.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Jim - Good point. I forgot that they were just rated at 95 and 130 amps continuous, but they put out a lot more than that for a while. Here's the DB chart on your own 130. And, as you know but Mekerek might not, the factory alternator for a 460 was "geared" at 3.0:1. So that 6000 alternator RPM is only 2000 engine RPM.

Points to ponder...

[85lebaront2]

Gary,

A 95A 3G is good for 130

A 130 is good for 165 or so before the heat starts to break down the diode board and winding insulation.

A 95A is probably the best fit for most people who aren't running electric fans, heated seats or a big stereo.

Jim. based on that information, was is my RJM 160 amp one good for?