It is time to talk hydraulic clutch systems.

[ArdWrknTrk]

The diesels use the same teams and bellhousing, it seems they make up the extra gap from the adapter plastic on the flywheel area.

There is a "12" heavy duty option" listed in rock auto. If you compare the part numbers, all of the clutch kits are comparable except a few of the the "heavy duty racing" and "high performance" clutches.

When I went to AutoZone (clutch died on me originally the day before I was supposed to leave for Oregon) they did not list a 12" clutch at all, except for the diesel, and they did not have an 11" clutch kit available locally, special order only. I wanted to leave asap, so I grabbed the "Diesel" listed 12" clutch. It is was the same part number rock auto shows and the same brand, luk, as the "heavy duty" 450 clutch kit, which is why I got it.

The pressure plate seemed to be the same size and used the same bolt holes as what was already in there, and the clutch disc instead looked identical, just 1/2" larger diameter all around.

Diesel bellhousing is entirely different, with an inspection plate, pmgr starter and even a couple of bolt holes are not quite in the same spot.

I was helping Jonathan figure out the clutch in his IDI not long ago.

That DMF is crazy thick compared to my 460.

[Haystack]

Diesel bellhousing is entirely different, with an inspection plate, pmgr starter and even a couple of bolt holes are not quite in the same spot.

I was helping Jonathan figure out the clutch in his IDI not long ago.

That DMF is crazy thick compared to my 460.

Auto correct totally butchered my last message, sorry. Fat thumbs, small screen.

Yeah, there are some slight differences, I have seen some sort of spacer that is supposed to bolt between the bellhousing and the actual block, not sure if that was only the later 7.3's or not. I don't like diesel stuff. Everything is super expensive when it breaks, and usually special order.

All Ford's were pmgr style by 1990 or so. Early on, they just used the same spacing a hole sizes for the the starters, but the pmgr style were so much smaller (and more powerful) that as they redesigned belhousings and motors, they actually only sized them for the smaller bolt patterns and nose cones.

When I did the aod to t-5 swap in my thunderbird, I went from a 1987 aod to a 2001? Sn-95 t-5. Everyone said the shaft was too long to work, it wasn't. Everyone said the bellhousing wouldn't work, it did. The aod used much longer belk housing bolts, and everyone knows the t-5 bellhousing requires shorter bolts. Well the sn-95 bellhousing used the same bolts as the aod, even had deeper castings for longer bolts.

I actually used a clutch and flywheel for an f-150 m5od because ironically enough, the sn-95 t-5 used metric fasteners and the block obviously used standard measurements. That meant I couldn't use a 3.8 flywheel, and the two year only 94-95 gt parts were harder to get and usually much more expensive.

I didn't even need to replace my starter, but the hole in the bellhousing wasn't large enough for the 87 starter. I ended up getting one out of a mid 90's Ford truck.

After everyone telling me, and the Internet just being flat out wrong with my t-5 swap, I've learned to verify anything I read online if it's critical. Even if information is meant to be helpful, there's a ton of one year only undocumented changes, it the guy thought he had an 85 but it was actually an 87 ECT ECT.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Auto correct totally butchered my last message, sorry. Fat thumbs, small screen.

Yeah, there are some slight differences, I have seen some sort of spacer that is supposed to bolt between the bellhousing and the actual block, not sure if that was only the later 7.3's or not. I don't like diesel stuff. Everything is super expensive when it breaks, and usually special order.

All Ford's were pmgr style by 1990 or so. Early on, they just used the same spacing a hole sizes for the the starters, but the pmgr style were so much smaller (and more powerful) that as they redesigned belhousings and motors, they actually only sized them for the smaller bolt patterns and nose cones.

When I did the aod to t-5 swap in my thunderbird, I went from a 1987 aod to a 2001? Sn-95 t-5. Everyone said the shaft was too long to work, it wasn't. Everyone said the bellhousing wouldn't work, it did. The aod used much longer belk housing bolts, and everyone knows the t-5 bellhousing requires shorter bolts. Well the sn-95 bellhousing used the same bolts as the aod, even had deeper castings for longer bolts.

I actually used a clutch and flywheel for an f-150 m5od because ironically enough, the sn-95 t-5 used metric fasteners and the block obviously used standard measurements. That meant I couldn't use a 3.8 flywheel, and the two year only 94-95 gt parts were harder to get and usually much more expensive.

I didn't even need to replace my starter, but the hole in the bellhousing wasn't large enough for the 87 starter. I ended up getting one out of a mid 90's Ford truck.

After everyone telling me, and the Internet just being flat out wrong with my t-5 swap, I've learned to verify anything I read online if it's critical. Even if information is meant to be helpful, there's a ton of one year only undocumented changes, it the guy thought he had an 85 but it was actually an 87 ECT ECT.

I can ping Jonathan, if you like.

The IDI's had a fairly massive PMGR from the jump.

Most trucks didn't see them until well into the '90's as I recall.

I DO remember the TSB regarding the spade connector to the starter solenoid that always ate slush and corroded to nothing.

The very last T-bird I worked on was replacing the heater core in a Turbo Coupe.

Man, it would have been easier to pull the engine and cut the firewall, but I got it all back together with not a single extra screw!

 

[Haystack]

I can ping Jonathan, if you like.

The IDI's had a fairly massive PMGR from the jump.

Most trucks didn't see them until well into the '90's as I recall.

I DO remember the TSB regarding the spade connector to the starter solenoid that always ate slush and corroded to nothing.

The very last T-bird I worked on was replacing the heater core in a Turbo Coupe.

Man, it would have been easier to pull the engine and cut the firewall, but I got it all back together with not a single extra screw!

I can swap a heater core in an hour in a thunderbird. Now putting it back together, getting all the trim to line up and all the plastic bits back without breaking 10 clips, that's a different story.

I have owned around 15 of them over the years. When I was a kid, my first car was an 86 cougar I bought for $110 at a police auction. Back then, these cars were everywhere for $300-500. I fell in love with them, but didn't know anything about cars. Everytime something broke that I couldn't fix or figure out, I would go junk it for $250 (man I miss when scrap was that high) and then I would wait for payday Friday and but another one.

Eventually I got sick of fixing the same things over and over and learned to fix things the "hard way" lol.

My daily driver has always been either a cougar or thunderbird. I drive alot, and I figure I have close to 1 million miles behind the wheel of cougarbirds. For about 10 years, I was averaging 80-100k miles a year. At the time, I was working 60 miles away for my day job, and then delivering pizza at night, 6 days a week. My average daily mileage was usually at least 200 miles a day.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I can swap a heater core in an hour in a thunderbird. Now putting it back together, getting all the trim to line up and all the plastic bits back without breaking 10 clips, that's a different story.

I have owned around 15 of them over the years. When I was a kid, my first car was an 86 cougar I bought for $110 at a police auction. Back then, these cars were everywhere for $300-500. I fell in love with them, but didn't know anything about cars. Everytime something broke that I couldn't fix or figure out, I would go junk it for $250 (man I miss when scrap was that high) and then I would wait for payday Friday and but another one.

Eventually I got sick of fixing the same things over and over and learned to fix things the "hard way" lol.

My daily driver has always been either a cougar or thunderbird. I drive alot, and I figure I have close to 1 million miles behind the wheel of cougarbirds. For about 10 years, I was averaging 80-100k miles a year. At the time, I was working 60 miles away for my day job, and then delivering pizza at night, 6 days a week. My average daily mileage was usually at least 200 miles a day.

Leg up on me!

I'm fortunate to have very good short term memory (becoming CRS as I get deeper into my 60's)

And a almost intuitive sense of how things fit together.

Have you considered a MK VIII, with the bags removed?

[Haystack]

Leg up on me!

I'm fortunate to have very good short term memory (becoming CRS as I get deeper into my 60's)

And a almost intuitive sense of how things fit together.

Have you considered a MK VIII, with the bags removed?

Mark7's are cool, but they are power/luxury everything. The cougar birds are basically a mustang with a slightly longer wheel base and some if not all the same options of a mark 7. They actually use the same doors, windshield and hood as the mark 7. The weight difference between a cougarbird and mustang is almost 500lbs, and a mark7 7 fully loaded has thicker carpet and more interior isolation as well as another wheel base stretch. Much more rear seat legroom as a result, but they weigh at least 500lbs more then a mark7, white equates to about 1000lbs more than a mustang of the same vintage.

My first 86 car was a true stripper model, no passenger side mirror, no power seats/windows ECT. Had only two options, the sefi 302 and the full digital dash. I weighed it once, and it was right at 3100lbs and I had a few hundred pounds of tools in the trunk. This puts it roughly 300lbs less than a mustang GT of the same year. The doors are actually super heavy, they have a giant corrugated brace, looks like a guard rail that runs from door hinge to door striker.

Later on, I "upgraded" to a fully loaded 87. It has like 16 way adjustable power seats, a memory function, even power recline, automatic climate control, the works. Weighing that car, it was nearly 3800lbs setup exactly the same way. From 86-87, although the body style was updated, the interior remained nearly the exact same. They thickened the carpet and insulation, and they also included all wiring for every option, which alone increases the weight by almost 200lbs alone.

When I bought the car, it came with two ignition keys and only one trunk key. I left the trunk and ignition key on the spare, as it had keyless entry and a electronic trunk release.

After a few months, my starter solenoid failed, bought a new one at the parts store. Drove it to the gas station, it was payday Friday, tanked it up just after hitting the grocery store. When I hit the key, the solenoid failed and the starter stuck on. This was a particularly hot day, had been around 110°f in late July. With no tools on me, I popped the hood and managed to get the battery cable off before it burned up the starter.

I went in and let the gas station clerk know that my car wouldn't start, they freaked out and told me they were calling parking enforcement to have me towed.

I pushed it from the pump into the parking spot while I was waiting for a buddy to come bail me out, but didn't dare leave the car because I didn't want it towed. Busy downtown gas station, not alot of parking.

I ended up waiting about two hours for my buddy, in 110°f heat. Couldn't crack the window, lean the seat back, anything. The worst part, I was basically acrossed the street from my apartment.

Ever since then, I have not a fan of power windows, seats ECT.

When I was 25, I had a crown Vic wagon. I loved that car, but my ex wife was 5'2 and I am 6'5. Within a few months the power seat motor was completely shot. I replaced it a few times, but it was always a problem, and the way the windshield sloped down, I actually had a hard time fitting in that land barge with a rear facing car seat in the back seat. It also got horrible gas mileage, 15ish Mpg city or freeway. For whatever reason, a wagon comes with the "towing package" which includes a minimum 3.55 gear ratio. Helps out a lot of you are towing and around town, but gets the rpm's near 3000 at 65mph. With a 4000rpm redline, it's a bit ridiculous.

The mark8's have gotten cheap cheap, but they are such a pain to work on. The dohc 4.6 is cool, and they make almost 300hp in the "lsc" model. But that setup is so wide, it's nearly impossible to change spark plugs. As a matter of fact, a dohc 4.6 is significantly wider than a 460. They are also pretty heavy, they weigh in at over 4000lbs at the lightest, and a fully loaded model can weigh over 4500lbs. They are also less than stellar gas mileage, with less than 20 mpg city and a whole 21mpg highway.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Mark7's are cool, but they are power/luxury everything. The cougar birds are basically a mustang with a slightly longer wheel base and some if not all the same options of a mark 7. They actually use the same doors, windshield and hood as the mark 7. The weight difference between a cougarbird and mustang is almost 500lbs, and a mark7 7 fully loaded has thicker carpet and more interior isolation as well as another wheel base stretch. Much more rear seat legroom as a result, but they weigh at least 500lbs more then a mark7, white equates to about 1000lbs more than a mustang of the same vintage.

My first 86 car was a true stripper model, no passenger side mirror, no power seats/windows ECT. Had only two options, the sefi 302 and the full digital dash. I weighed it once, and it was right at 3100lbs and I had a few hundred pounds of tools in the trunk. This puts it roughly 300lbs less than a mustang GT of the same year. The doors are actually super heavy, they have a giant corrugated brace, looks like a guard rail that runs from door hinge to door striker.

Later on, I "upgraded" to a fully loaded 87. It has like 16 way adjustable power seats, a memory function, even power recline, automatic climate control, the works. Weighing that car, it was nearly 3800lbs setup exactly the same way. From 86-87, although the body style was updated, the interior remained nearly the exact same. They thickened the carpet and insulation, and they also included all wiring for every option, which alone increases the weight by almost 200lbs alone.

When I bought the car, it came with two ignition keys and only one trunk key. I left the trunk and ignition key on the spare, as it had keyless entry and a electronic trunk release.

After a few months, my starter solenoid failed, bought a new one at the parts store. Drove it to the gas station, it was payday Friday, tanked it up just after hitting the grocery store. When I hit the key, the solenoid failed and the starter stuck on. This was a particularly hot day, had been around 110°f in late July. With no tools on me, I popped the hood and managed to get the battery cable off before it burned up the starter.

I went in and let the gas station clerk know that my car wouldn't start, they freaked out and told me they were calling parking enforcement to have me towed.

I pushed it from the pump into the parking spot while I was waiting for a buddy to come bail me out, but didn't dare leave the car because I didn't want it towed. Busy downtown gas station, not alot of parking.

I ended up waiting about two hours for my buddy, in 110°f heat. Couldn't crack the window, lean the seat back, anything. The worst part, I was basically acrossed the street from my apartment.

Ever since then, I have not a fan of power windows, seats ECT.

When I was 25, I had a crown Vic wagon. I loved that car, but my ex wife was 5'2 and I am 6'5. Within a few months the power seat motor was completely shot. I replaced it a few times, but it was always a problem, and the way the windshield sloped down, I actually had a hard time fitting in that land barge with a rear facing car seat in the back seat. It also got horrible gas mileage, 15ish Mpg city or freeway. For whatever reason, a wagon comes with the "towing package" which includes a minimum 3.55 gear ratio. Helps out a lot of you are towing and around town, but gets the rpm's near 3000 at 65mph. With a 4000rpm redline, it's a bit ridiculous.

The mark8's have gotten cheap cheap, but they are such a pain to work on. The dohc 4.6 is cool, and they make almost 300hp in the "lsc" model. But that setup is so wide, it's nearly impossible to change spark plugs. As a matter of fact, a dohc 4.6 is significantly wider than a 460. They are also pretty heavy, they weigh in at over 4000lbs at the lightest, and a fully loaded model can weigh over 4500lbs. They are also less than stellar gas mileage, with less than 20 mpg city and a whole 21mpg highway.

What engine in a crown Vic wagon has a 4,000 rpm redline???

I've only ever bothered with the LSC's

Changed throttle bodies and installed shorty headers.

Plugs aren't bad if you have the "quick detach" fender wells!

I just figured that if you were putting that kind of stupid mileage on every week, the comfort would be worth it.

[85lebaront2]

Mark7's are cool, but they are power/luxury everything. The cougar birds are basically a mustang with a slightly longer wheel base and some if not all the same options of a mark 7. They actually use the same doors, windshield and hood as the mark 7. The weight difference between a cougarbird and mustang is almost 500lbs, and a mark7 7 fully loaded has thicker carpet and more interior isolation as well as another wheel base stretch. Much more rear seat legroom as a result, but they weigh at least 500lbs more then a mark7, white equates to about 1000lbs more than a mustang of the same vintage.

My first 86 car was a true stripper model, no passenger side mirror, no power seats/windows ECT. Had only two options, the sefi 302 and the full digital dash. I weighed it once, and it was right at 3100lbs and I had a few hundred pounds of tools in the trunk. This puts it roughly 300lbs less than a mustang GT of the same year. The doors are actually super heavy, they have a giant corrugated brace, looks like a guard rail that runs from door hinge to door striker.

Later on, I "upgraded" to a fully loaded 87. It has like 16 way adjustable power seats, a memory function, even power recline, automatic climate control, the works. Weighing that car, it was nearly 3800lbs setup exactly the same way. From 86-87, although the body style was updated, the interior remained nearly the exact same. They thickened the carpet and insulation, and they also included all wiring for every option, which alone increases the weight by almost 200lbs alone.

When I bought the car, it came with two ignition keys and only one trunk key. I left the trunk and ignition key on the spare, as it had keyless entry and a electronic trunk release.

After a few months, my starter solenoid failed, bought a new one at the parts store. Drove it to the gas station, it was payday Friday, tanked it up just after hitting the grocery store. When I hit the key, the solenoid failed and the starter stuck on. This was a particularly hot day, had been around 110°f in late July. With no tools on me, I popped the hood and managed to get the battery cable off before it burned up the starter.

I went in and let the gas station clerk know that my car wouldn't start, they freaked out and told me they were calling parking enforcement to have me towed.

I pushed it from the pump into the parking spot while I was waiting for a buddy to come bail me out, but didn't dare leave the car because I didn't want it towed. Busy downtown gas station, not alot of parking.

I ended up waiting about two hours for my buddy, in 110°f heat. Couldn't crack the window, lean the seat back, anything. The worst part, I was basically acrossed the street from my apartment.

Ever since then, I have not a fan of power windows, seats ECT.

When I was 25, I had a crown Vic wagon. I loved that car, but my ex wife was 5'2 and I am 6'5. Within a few months the power seat motor was completely shot. I replaced it a few times, but it was always a problem, and the way the windshield sloped down, I actually had a hard time fitting in that land barge with a rear facing car seat in the back seat. It also got horrible gas mileage, 15ish Mpg city or freeway. For whatever reason, a wagon comes with the "towing package" which includes a minimum 3.55 gear ratio. Helps out a lot of you are towing and around town, but gets the rpm's near 3000 at 65mph. With a 4000rpm redline, it's a bit ridiculous.

The mark8's have gotten cheap cheap, but they are such a pain to work on. The dohc 4.6 is cool, and they make almost 300hp in the "lsc" model. But that setup is so wide, it's nearly impossible to change spark plugs. As a matter of fact, a dohc 4.6 is significantly wider than a 460. They are also pretty heavy, they weigh in at over 4000lbs at the lightest, and a fully loaded model can weigh over 4500lbs. They are also less than stellar gas mileage, with less than 20 mpg city and a whole 21mpg highway.

The plugs on the DOHC 4.6 I have are in the center of the heads. If you have the COP system, yes, then you have to pull the coils first. On the Continental the 1-4 plugs are a pain because the engine is sideways (Taurus platform).

[Haystack]

What engine in a crown Vic wagon has a 4,000 rpm redline???

I've only ever bothered with the LSC's

Changed throttle bodies and installed shorty headers.

Plugs aren't bad if you have the "quick detach" fender wells!

I just figured that if you were putting that kind of stupid mileage on every week, the comfort would be worth it.

Did I ever tell you that I am picky? Like really, really picky? The biggest deal breaker for me on the mark series in the airbags honestly. Now they are much cheaper to replace, and much more common, but 15 years ago, I could buy another car for the cost of fixing the airbags.

The "4,000rpm" redline, is not technically actually 4,000rpm. It will run up to 6250 or so if you have all day, but it is done making power around 3200rpm. The standard output sefi 302 made 150hp from 86-91.

This had a much lower lift cam from the pick up trucks, as well as the e6 head castings (e4,e5 and e7's are the "smog era heads) which are the "high swirl" casting designed specifically to improve emissions.

These were only really used in 86-88 cougars/non-lsc mark7's and the 86-91 sefi crown Vic. The "high output" 302 in the mustang and mark7 lsc was an easy 75hp upgrade.

 

[ArdWrknTrk]

Did I ever tell you that I am picky? Like really, really picky? The biggest deal breaker for me on the mark series in the airbags honestly. Now they are much cheaper to replace, and much more common, but 15 years ago, I could buy another car for the cost of fixing the airbags.

The "4,000rpm" redline, is not technically actually 4,000rpm. It will run up to 6250 or so if you have all day, but it is done making power around 3200rpm. The standard output sefi 302 made 150hp from 86-91.

This had a much lower lift cam from the pick up trucks, as well as the e6 head castings (e4,e5 and e7's are the "smog era heads) which are the "high swirl" casting designed specifically to improve emissions.

These were only really used in 86-88 cougars/non-lsc mark7's and the 86-91 sefi crown Vic. The "high output" 302 in the mustang and mark7 lsc was an easy 75hp upgrade.

Those bags were the bane of many owners.

That's why I said "with the bags removed" (and the pump fuse pulled, obviously)

Just use the shocks/struts/whatever from a car like the Tbird, or a police car if you wanted a firmer ride without the ass in the air.

When you're poor and drive a tow truck 'picky' can mean different things.

Nice mags with great rubber? Check.

Giant doors and comfortable seats? Check

Quick enough and effortless highway? Check

I never paid for gas, because I'd siphon cars before I brought them to the shredder.

It did have some odd features, like the compass, but all in all a vehicle I was familiar with and easy to find parts for.