ReneH Posted May 21, 2023 Author Share Posted May 21, 2023 Wow! That’s the worst lifter I’ve ever seen! As for what fails first, I don’t know. But that lifter doesn’t appear to have been heat-treated, so I’d bet it was the culprit. Assuming you are coating the cam and lifters with break-in lube and spinning the oil pump to pre-lube I don’t know what else to do. Yes, but is it possible that a non-heat-treated lifter is able to damage a lobe like this? That's what I've asked myself... I've done a test with a punch to my original "old" cams lobes and also the the new one...both are easy to punch... I've done the same test with the first lifters that fail...no way to punch it... This time the holes from punching are much deeper...so, you are probably right... I know, I won't apply the same force for every test...but in my opinion it shouldn't be as easy to punch a lifters surface... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 Wow! That’s the worst lifter I’ve ever seen! As for what fails first, I don’t know. But that lifter doesn’t appear to have been heat-treated, so I’d bet it was the culprit. Assuming you are coating the cam and lifters with break-in lube and spinning the oil pump to pre-lube I don’t know what else to do. Gary, if you go back up the thread a bit, I sent him 4 links to cam and lifter failure videos on YouTube. FWIW, Ford, GM and Stellantis are all experiencing premature cam and lifter failures even with roller lifters. Basic problem seems to be outsourcing to China by manufacturers of cams and lifters. The lifters are wearing through on flat tappet cams, even though some are definitely rotating (whole bottom worn in a cupped in pattern). Roller lifters are exhibiting spalling where the hard roller surface cracks and starts flaking off. Some have exhibited what looks like seized rollers, which then destroy the cam lobes associated with them. I haven't seen so many wiped out cam lobes in years, it used to be very common on Chevrolet engines. We would get one in at Preston, complaint would be missing and backfiring in the carburetor under load. Always would be a wiped out exhaust lobe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 Gary, if you go back up the thread a bit, I sent him 4 links to cam and lifter failure videos on YouTube. FWIW, Ford, GM and Stellantis are all experiencing premature cam and lifter failures even with roller lifters. Basic problem seems to be outsourcing to China by manufacturers of cams and lifters. The lifters are wearing through on flat tappet cams, even though some are definitely rotating (whole bottom worn in a cupped in pattern). Roller lifters are exhibiting spalling where the hard roller surface cracks and starts flaking off. Some have exhibited what looks like seized rollers, which then destroy the cam lobes associated with them. I haven't seen so many wiped out cam lobes in years, it used to be very common on Chevrolet engines. We would get one in at Preston, complaint would be missing and backfiring in the carburetor under load. Always would be a wiped out exhaust lobe. I’ve not watched any of the videos, but hope that Steve/FoxFord33 has. He may want to run that 5.8L as is given all of the troubles with all kinds of cams and lifters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 Wow! That’s the worst lifter I’ve ever seen! As for what fails first, I don’t know. But that lifter doesn’t appear to have been heat-treated, so I’d bet it was the culprit. Assuming you are coating the cam and lifters with break-in lube and spinning the oil pump to pre-lube I don’t know what else to do. If you look at the wear pattern, it is straight across the bottom of the lifter, this tells the lifter was not rotating in the bore and second, just eyeballing it, the lobe may well be flat across the top which will also contribute to failure. The lobes are supposed to have a slight taper across the tip, not much, but enough so the tip will have the load concentrated in one area, hopefully near the OD of the lifter forcing it to rotate as it lifts. As for seeing lifters like that, I have, on a small block Chevy, worn through, mushroomed to where they won't come out. A pinhole to lube the contact area as was suggested on a FB group might help, but crappy Chinesium that is case hardened rather than a good alloy steel through hardened is going to crack, spall and rapidly wear once the hardened surface is breached. Years ago, some of the early hydraulic lifters had a pressed in end cap where they sat on the cam, maybe we need the manufacturers to return to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat in tn Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 I’ve not watched any of the videos, but hope that Steve/FoxFord33 has. He may want to run that 5.8L as is given all of the troubles with all kinds of cams and lifters. just going to add a tiny theory here. when steel is hardened it gets easier to slip the two surfaces together. like two plates of glass. if the steel is softer it would tend to "grip" more and induce a more positive spin. based on this I would look even more closely at the ability of these lifters to not only rotate but to turn the engine and watch them do so. I know there is a real product problem as we keep seeing it in the shop also, but it does make it where we must scrutinize our fitting even more. the "rough" surface of a flat tappet cam should induce rotation rather easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReneH Posted May 21, 2023 Author Share Posted May 21, 2023 If you look at the wear pattern, it is straight across the bottom of the lifter, this tells the lifter was not rotating in the bore and second, just eyeballing it, the lobe may well be flat across the top which will also contribute to failure. The lobes are supposed to have a slight taper across the tip, not much, but enough so the tip will have the load concentrated in one area, hopefully near the OD of the lifter forcing it to rotate as it lifts. As for seeing lifters like that, I have, on a small block Chevy, worn through, mushroomed to where they won't come out. A pinhole to lube the contact area as was suggested on a FB group might help, but crappy Chinesium that is case hardened rather than a good alloy steel through hardened is going to crack, spall and rapidly wear once the hardened surface is breached. Years ago, some of the early hydraulic lifters had a pressed in end cap where they sat on the cam, maybe we need the manufacturers to return to that. Ok, I don't want to cut this gerneral discussion, but I really have a problem right now... I have had checked all lifters that they rotate after setting them in. I've marked every single lifter and turned the engine with a ratchet. All of them are spinning around. But you see what happens directly after the break-in... So what should I do to prevent this? I only hope, Bill will find his "old" unused lifter ls, that I can try this ones.. I'm not interested in tearing down the engine a third time... Maybe I should also clear the sharp edges of the Lobes this time...I know, the lifers aren't in contract with them...but what should I damage by cleaning the edges? Is it true that the comp cams are coated with a rough coating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdWrknTrk Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 Ok, I don't want to cut this gerneral discussion, but I really have a problem right now... I have had checked all lifters that they rotate after setting them in. I've marked every single lifter and turned the engine with a ratchet. All of them are spinning around. But you see what happens directly after the break-in... So what should I do to prevent this? I only hope, Bill will find his "old" unused lifter ls, that I can try this ones.. I'm not interested in tearing down the engine a third time... Maybe I should also clear the sharp edges of the Lobes this time...I know, the lifers aren't in contract with them...but what should I damage by cleaning the edges? Is it true that the comp cams are coated with a rough coating? The 'rough coating' should be nitriding. This provides a hardened surface and enough 'tooth' to keep lubricating oil at the lifter cam interface. Much the same that you want crosshatching in the cylinder bores and not a perfectly smooth surface. I'm really sorry to see what you are going through with this break-in, Rene. It makes me doubt everything I think I know well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81-F150-Explorer Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 Wow! That’s the worst lifter I’ve ever seen! And that was brand new installed right? Sheesh! Putting an old worn out lifter back in the engine is better than that! Calling it would be an understatement. Something needs to be done here with QC. It will ruin things (and not just the engines) if allowed to continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 Wow! That’s the worst lifter I’ve ever seen! And that was brand new installed right? Sheesh! Putting an old worn out lifter back in the engine is better than that! Calling it would be an understatement. Something needs to be done here with QC. It will ruin things (and not just the engines) if allowed to continue. Chinesium, what you get when you outsource stuff to China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReneH Posted May 22, 2023 Author Share Posted May 22, 2023 Chinesium, what you get when you outsource stuff to China. Thanks for all your sympathy! In my helplessness, I've additionally ordered a set of lifters from comp cams High Energy Hydraulic Lifters 832-16. Maybe I have more luck using the cam and the lifters from one brand and all bought from summit racing... If it also fails, I maybe have better chances to get some more compensation from them or from comp cams... I will do photos and videos during the installation, this time for documenting that I've done nothing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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