Building a house (off-topic!)

I agree Gary, that would be ideal to prevent running gallons on water down the drain just to get some warm water to the tap to wash your hands. I will look into this. One complication I have not mentioned yet is that we will need to share the power main with the single wide mobile that our daughter and grandkids are living in, so we will be on a bit of a power budget for high amp appliances. I would go all electric if we could, but I don’t see any way we can run both houses without using propane for cooking. The service is only 100A now, but will be upgraded to at least 200A. My dad asked if I might be able to get 300A, but out here I doubt it. The Unisource guy I talked to wasn’t sure if I could even get 200A, but after coming out he said it would be possible. That was almost two years ago, and I didn’t even know to ask if 300A was a possibility, but I’m not counting on it. The mobile has a 50A sub panel, and I ran another 30A for an electric dryer. So after a 200A upgrade I will have 120A (to possibly 160A per the 120% rule) to power our new house. It’s doable but tight. I won’t be able to afford a bunch of high amp appliances on dedicated circuits. I bought the Rennai tankless heater thinking it could supply the needs of the new house, but it has been a fight and I hope to not need it at all.

Jonathan, I know that the Rennai is too touchy. Mandates and a built-in market have made the product "good enough" for 93%, but incredibly frustrating for the few outliers.
Everybody wants one but they are not for everybody.
Specific model???

You need to be on top of descaling the heat exchanger when you use one with hard water. AMHIK!
Because you don't want to be paying for that, believe me.   (Citric acid is your friend)

We had a Thermar tankless heater on propane back in the late '70's.
Was a huge step up from floor standing tanks that would always get flooded out.
Keeping 50 gallons of water piping hot is pretty wasteful

What is the cut in/out pressure of your pump switch?
Moving from a tiny Extrol to an actual well tank would help a lot
How big is your tubing going to and from the unit?
What kind of manifold are you using after the unit?
I will ask a couple of my plumber friends if they have ideas.

Those Rennai's do not like pressure spikes or drops.
With early ones you could remote the flow sensor.

GSHP depth depends on the temperature gradient, and how deep you need to go for not only stability, but also enough to sink the heat from the loop.
Your lack of ground moisture hurts heat transfer.
Having to drill for heat loops may make for a higher up front cost, but ive never seen a situation that puts the ROI out more than five years, and the savings after that are awesome.
I know drill rigs are not cheap.
But the building industry is evolving every day.
It wasn't but a few years ago that bringing a concrete pump on a residential job was unheard of.

I will qualify this by saying where I live the geology is very different.
There is an incredible amount of granite and we got scraped right down to it 10,000 years ago in the last ice age.
Long Island Sound was formed by the edge of the glacier, and all of Long Island is just the terminal moraine (berm pushed up by the plow)
So drilling here can get expensive fast, but shallow systems are a lot more prone to damage and failure in my experience.

Drilled holes allow for a lot of length in very little space, but you have to backfill carefully.

I've never seen a 300A service.
60, 100, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1,000.
That's about as big as I've ever seen residential.  😲
But, like I said, very different locales and climates.

Be glad you don't get ice storms and have trees.
As remote as places are out there it could be weeks to repair in a major event.

Cant help on any of this but what is the story on solar power?
Panels on the roof if roof was built for them, would keep the hot sun from beating down and heating the house that way so less cooling needed.
I know you said you have sky lights I would think you could place the panels around them.

Again it would be a up front cost but I think you would then get the power needed to run your hose and the mobile home next door.
You might get kick back for it too?

When we lived in CT we had panels installed on the roof. They could not be put on the "sunny side" because of pitch but added them to the other side.
They were installed for free as the company that installed gets the kick back but we got the savings of power not used.

I wished I could say what that saving was and if it helped with the sun / heat load during the summer but we moved to NC before the system was up and running.

Here in NC we looked into panels but we would have to pay for everything unlike in CT.
I do believe it would cut down on the heat the sun puts on the roof of the house so it would be cooler so less AC needed so between less AC and the panels I think we would be in pretty good shape in the payback side.

We need to sit down and look this over again as it has been 6 years since we first looked.
I can also put panels on my garage and I know what would help in the summer as you can feel the heat come from the roof when you walk in the bays.
I also have land I could put them on. Farmers sell or leas land that panel farms are built on as they get more money from that than crops.
Dave ----

Thanks for the info Jim. My Rennai is a V65e. The supply line to it is 3/4” and the service line is 3/4” to the “dwelling” where it reduces down to 1/2” pex. There is a shark bite T and one side goes to the tub and the other goes to the sink and dishwasher. That’s it. No manifolds. The distance from the pressure tank to the water heater is about 10’ and the distance from the heater to the point(s) of use is about another 8-10’ respectively. I shouldn’t have much friction loss. The pump cuts in at 55psi and cuts out at 60psi. It’s low but not that low. I have flushed it twice, both times with vinegar as per the manual, but if citric acid is okay I will use that on the next flush. I read that would void the warranty but since I rednecked it all myself I’m not worried about warranty, just damaging the unit.

Dave, I definitely plan to add solar panels to our roof, which is part of the choice of orientation. If you have a stick built house, you can get some nice subsidies to help pay for it (obviously you need to feed into the grid if you do this). My first priority is to get the house up and pass move in inspection. Other features will have to wait. Our living situation is currently unacceptable, not to mention breaking quite a few rules. I’m not proud but we do what we have to do to take care of family and building the house is the corrective action. Once we have taken that step others will follow such as solar power and a well.

Jonathan, i'm saying you need to keep on top of scale.
And you seem to be doing that!  
I've seen heat exchangers that look fossilized, or like a health class poster about arterial plaque.
And people wonder why the flow is bad and "that piece of junk" doesn't get hot anymore...

Using vinegar or citric acid crystals is like the difference between degreasing your engine with Dawn or kerosene.
One is going to be a lot quicker and easier.
But if misused could catch fire.
We are responsible adults (well... you are!  😜)
Don't mix it too strong or leave it in there too long.

I was asking about the actual piping to see if something popped out at me.
Pressure seems adequate.

A 1/2" Sharkbite can get pretty narrow, given the plastic sleeves inside the pex.
And you would probably be better with a 1/2x3/4x1/2 fitting.
Pex, by virtue of the fittings inside the tube doesn't act like copper, and those changes in direction are even more restrictive than normal.
That's why pex should be on a manifold with every fixture having a home run using 90* supports instead of elbows. (Or any fittings, if you can)
Best practices, anyway.
We all know reality gets in the way sometimes.

A small dedicated DHW Extrol between the heater and fixtures would damp pressure drop.

It might help to have "more distance" between the pressure tank and the heater itself to damp the pump cycling. If it is the pump cycling that is causing the heater to throw a code.
This could be a bigger tank, a rubber snubber like you'd see in an air system, or maybe even just a coil of pex.
I'm not certain if it's an answer. More conjecture on my part.
I will ask a pro.

Solar is great and all, but I wouldn't go that route (grid tied) if I didn't have my own reserve storage and a transfer switch I could control.
Pumping excess back into the grid isn't profitable for utilities
Unfortunately energy companies have lobbyists and deep pockets.
I'm stopping at that before it gets political.

Jim, I plumbed the hot water with 3/4” to the dwelling because I wanted the tub to fill in a reasonable amount of time. Then I get the faucet out and the little hoses going from the mixer valve to the spout are tiny, like 1/8” inside diameter or less. With our merger pressure it still takes a looooooong time to fill. I’m disappointed. I guess my point is the 1/2” shark bite is far from being the bottle neck. Also, the pump cutting in and out has never caused the flame out code. Only running both the tub and the sink at once. It does it most in cold weather, I’m guessing because the flame is running more of the time?

I agree about the solar panels. That’s one reason I’m not diving right in. I get that selling the power (from subsidized panels) might reduce your overall electric expense, but the subsidy is primarily meeting a renewable energy agenda. I am in favor of renewable energy, but I would rather pay for my own panels, and reap more of the benefit. ‘Nuf said... as you put it... before it treads political waters.

These things are meant to run continuously when they sense flow, and throttle rather than cutting on and off.
There's going to be a much higher temperature delta in winter because your tank and plumbing aren't deep underground.

You get a flame out code because the output temp sensor sees a tiny drop in water temperature when the other faucet is cracked open.
If it noted that the flow rate increases it shouldn't throw a code, it should just increase the flame.

Again, without getting political, it's another case of "saving us, from ourselves"

The only other thing I can think of is that you're on propane and pressure drops when it is cold out.
Here where I live 90% are on piped natural gas and we don't see this, but low gas pressure (sensor pressure, not reality) can cause those units to trip off.

I'm going to ask Bill (third generation plumber) who deals mostly with Naiven, but has LOTS of troubleshooting experience what his thoughts are.
I don't think there's anything he hasn't encountered (yet)

Last thing on the solar panels the company that was installing them was also working on battery storage it just was not approved at the time of install for us.
We were more looking to lower our bill at the time but also "save us from our selves" LOL
Dave ----

And it won't get approved if lobbies have their way

Distributed and point-of-use generation are going to be needed given the lack of grid updates and maintenance.
Dave.... You know that your Eversource bill could be $15 for kwh used and 45 for 'distribution services'

I just want to go live in a cave

I've been watching a few more videos.

This looks very similar???

https://youtu.be/rNclzrZ-PUs

Yes, I watched that one, I somehow thought that manufacturer was back east but they are in Tempe AZ. I just requested pricing info and product details. Their blocks are 12”x60”x10” thick, not asymmetric like TPB. I’m curious what they charge and what the specs are (concrete volume etc.), maybe I do have brand choice without really high shipping? Both manufacturers are close enough I could even haul it myself with the Superduty if the freight and all terrain fork life rental is obscenely priced.

https://efbm.com/about/

I see their church is a dome.  

Like I've said, it's the product that matters not the presentation.
At least i was able to watch a few videos without cringing.

So, do you simply call a nearby redimix plant to deliver the grout?
Do you hire a local pumping company to do it for you?

The guys that did the ICF I worked on were good at their job, but missed a few details that resulted in rework and compromise of the 'system'
Not sure if the problems were the plan wasn't drawn right, or they didn't read the plan.

As far as I can tell, you just need how ever many yards of 3000 psi concrete with a max gravel size of 3/8” and a high slump, preferably from plasticizer, not too much water. You rent the pump equipment separate from the concrete delivery. When you rent/hire the pump, it comes with an operator. You want him to show up 30 min or so before the truck so he can set up. The operator doesn’t do anything except run the pump and take care of the equipment. In addition, you need 4-5 more guys. Their proposed roles/responsibilities are really well described in TPB technical manual, along with a really good checklist for grout day. I know their promotional video is hokey, but the technical support is excellent and the guy who wrote the manual (Rick Tindal) was extremely helpful over the phone. The support is good enough to make me want to choose their product over others, but EF Block might be just as good in that department. We shall see... and ultimately price will matter if there is a large difference.

My issue is the 4-5 guys to grout the block. I probably won’t be able to find anyone here with experience. Rick says a crew proficient with grouting CMU should be able to handle it, or better yet a crew who has done white block ICF which is touchier than ICCF. Unfortunately it looks like I will need the crew three separate times, and three pump rentals. But it is what it is. I don’t want catastrophe by trying to do too much at once.

I can't speak to filling styrofoam blocks, but running a grout pump is not for the uninitiated.

Yeah, obviously you need to get the lowest course solid before building up the walls.
Hydrostatic pressure is immense, and if the form (block in your case) starts to lift, you're screwed.
Timing is everything with concrete. Too much lift at once will blow out the form. Too much time between will result in cold joints.

When the bridge fell down in '83 the new pylons were over 80' high and had to be monolithic pour.
(We babysat that over 2 days, getting the timing right so the loads already in the forms had time to firm up, but the top would still become one.)

I have no idea how far you are from the batch plant, or how rugged the terrain is at your job site.
The last thing you want is a 'Hot Batch' and rushing to get it out of the mixer and pump before it cakes up.
Have as much water at hand as you possibly can, when the time comes.
Maybe even borrow or rent extra IBC's.
The waterjet cleaning cost for a pump full of hard concrete will break you.

I'm sure (being Arizona) the locals pour at dawn and might use retardant.
Beyond reducing water used and getting it pumped, plasticizer helps a lot avoiding honeycomb and getting the bubbles to rise.

Rick told me that the pump “rental” typically comes with a pump operator who is responsible for running and cleaning the equipment... set up etc., and that’s exactly how I would want it. That’s a pricey piece of gear and I wouldn’t want to be responsible for it not knowing anything about them.

The blocks are a lot stronger and more stable than white block ICF. If you follow the manual, Rick says blow outs are basically a thing of the past. Corners, openings and penetrations need a bit of bracing just to be on the safe side. They pour grout in 5’ lifts, filling through holes cut in the block at that height. You can go back and do a second lift on the same pour, but they don’t recommend building the wall taller than 10’ at a time. Any more than that and you need to build in stages, adding block to a grouted wall with lapped rebar to tie it together. In my case, the foundation wall will be 5 courses, then 8’ and 14’ on top of that respectively. Rick suggested that I grout the foundation wall height first, or perhaps one course higher, then build the house walls in two more stages. My high wall will be 19’ from footing to mud sill so theoretically it could be built in just two stages, 4 lifts, without exceeding the 10’ height. But if he recommends three stages I will take his advice. It also might be beneficial to grout the foundation wall, then build the floor so I have that surface to roll my scaffolding around on for building and grouting the rest. The manual pretty much insists that you work off of a slab, but if there isn’t one you have to make do working in the dirt. The grouting can go pretty quickly though, and being able to roll scaffolding on a floor would really help.

I know for sure there is a cement plant in Bullhead City, about 25-30 miles from us. We are a ways off the beaten path, but everything is paved except the last 1/3 mile or so, and that is a wide, nicely maintained county section line road. Our driveway has a bit of rise, but is only a problem for really low clearance rigs with a long overhang. We shouldn’t have any problems getting equipment to the site.

I think pouring the foundation and building the first deck to provide a work surface is a wise move.

I understand blowouts are rare, I was talking more about having that first course above the deck, so the form can't shift or lift.

The pump operator can only do so much if you get a hot load.
I imagine he could refuse to pump it at all...?
But this is where having an efficient crew that works together and knows what to watch for pays off.

I was thinking more about terrain at the house itself.
That there's access and room for the mixer to be on the level as it feeds the pump.

You might ask the batch plant in Bullhead City about a pump operator.
It always helps when the driver and pumper know one another.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

You might ask the batch plant in Bullhead City about a pump operator.
It always helps when the driver and pumper know one another.

Jim this is an extremely good suggestion! I will pursue this.

I have an update on the EF block. I spoke with Sue Ellen on the phone, and read Dan’s technical literature on their product. They are great people and offer awesome support. Their plant is very close to me, so freight would be minimal. She said they come up regularly from Tempe to support their plant, and she said they would be more than happy to have one of their people come out to help with the grouting at the cost of their daily wage which seems extremely fair. They have been doing this for 31 years and want to make sure every project done with their blocks is a success. Their blocks are also considerably cheaper. They not only cost less per block, but the blocks are 25% longer (60” vs 48”) which makes them 45% less per square foot than TPB’s 10” asymmetric. (And still 25% less per square foot than TPB’s 8” block). They use just a shade more concrete, but not enough to worry about. They definitely seem to be a better value, and she said their pricing has been flat since this plant opened in 2016? Seems like a pretty easy choice to make!

Well it's great you've reached out to them!
If their prices are better and they're willing to come to your site to help for a nominal cost, it does look like a win, win.
Having someone from their A-team supervising and lending a hand at that critical stage could make all the difference.

I definitely hope the rest of the bumps in this project continue to get ironed out like this.
"I love it when a plan comes together!"