Dragging/Binding Starter

Lucille has developed a problem that has happened twice the last three times I have driven her.  The first time was after stopping to get gas.  I went to re-start the engine, and the starter began to turn, but it dragged way too slow to turn the motor over, then it seemed to bind up, and then it kicked back.  I tried three more times and got the same result.  So I went out and tapped the starter motor and the starter relay with a wrench.  And then the engine started normally.  Except it put one heck of a drain on the battery.  It took about 15 minutes of driving to get the ammeter back to the correct spot on the gauge.

The next drive was a week later, and everything worked perfectly normal.

Today, it acted up again.  Same symptoms as described above, except I was home this time after a 30-minute drive.  So I got out and tapped the starter motor and tried again.  No change.  So then I tapped the starter relay, and that got the starter to work normally again.

In both instances, the starter worked perfectly normal when the engine was cold.  


So what is the problem?


Bad starter relay?

Or bad starter motor?

Sure sounds like the starter to me.

I suspect if it was the relay it would either not engage, do the click thing or would "stick".

Could be bad contacts in the starter relay.

definitely start by cleaning the contacts at the cable terminals on the solenoid on the fender

Are you using the stock "moving shoe" starter or a later model PMGR? If you do swap starters, a PMGR conversion is recommended due to the relative ease of the swap (move the power cable to battery + and run a 12 gauge wire from the relay to the motor's solenoid), lower current draw, and faster cranking speed.

LARIAT 85 wrote

Lucille has developed a problem that has happened twice the last three times I have driven her.  The first time was after stopping to get gas.  I went to re-start the engine, and the starter began to turn, but it dragged way too slow to turn the motor over, then it seemed to bind up, and then it kicked back.  I tried three more times and got the same result.  So I went out and tapped the starter motor and the starter relay with a wrench.  And then the engine started normally.  Except it put one heck of a drain on the battery.  It took about 15 minutes of driving to get the ammeter back to the correct spot on the gauge.

The next drive was a week later, and everything worked perfectly normal.

Today, it acted up again.  Same symptoms as described above, except I was home this time after a 30-minute drive.  So I got out and tapped the starter motor and tried again.  No change.  So then I tapped the starter relay, and that got the starter to work normally again.

In both instances, the starter worked perfectly normal when the engine was cold.  


So what is the problem?


Bad starter relay?

Or bad starter motor?

Exactly what mine did. Started up great when cold but after running a bit, would drag. Couple times thought it was going to leave me stranded. I just replaced it this past weekend. My starter was the OEM unit and I suspect the bushings were wore out. I replaced it with a PMGR unit from a 90's model F150, which is much smaller, lighter, and far more efficient. The PMGR starter is a great improvement over the original starter type.  

Have your headers finally cooked your starter?
Is the DSII starter retard function still working with your module?
Where is your static timing set?

Installing a later PMGR style starter is a definite improvement if you end up having to replace it anyhow.
If the headers are tight consider a reflective shield made of stainless steel or something.

Quality fender relays usually don't go out on their own. They succumb to the increased amperage demand of bad cables/connections or a starter whose windings have cooked.
Then the contacts weld together and you can't get the starter to stop without rapping the relay.

A 90's style PMGR takes most of the load off the relay because the solenoid on the starter is switching the current.
You can make it look stock(ish) by using the 'Y' shaped starter cable from the same '95 truck that takes the geared starter.
A word to the wise... eliminate the troublesome spade connector on the solenoid and fit a ring terminal to the trigger wire.
Those connectors would get corroded because they take so much water when driven in the rain. (this may not be as critical in climates that don't use salt in winter)

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Is the DSII starter retard function still working with your module?
Where is your static timing set?

That's what I was going to ask! Pretty sure he was running quite a bit of advance (16btdc?) because I was doing the same with my 5.0 (around 17btdc).

When I tried that new "Motorcraft" DSII module (without the retard function) my 302 became very hard to start when hot...like the starter would drag and barely move the engine..

Could pull the static back to the factory 8btdc or so and see if it's better.

When I re-read Rick's post and he says "and then it kicked back" it makes me think the timing is too far advanced.
Maybe his starter is getting weak, but it sure sounds like the timing isn't being retarded.

Which ignition module did you end up using Cory?

I here you guys on the timing, but I wouldn’t think tapping on the starter and relay would help.

I don't think tapping anything helped.
But having the hood open while you're screwing around with the starter and/or relay certainly let the engine, starter and cables cool down.

Heat causes resistance and resistance causes heat..
It's a vicious cycle.

Thank you, gentlemen.  I will try to answer your questions in the order they were received:


- All the cables look great, and all the connections are great.  I cleaned the grounds about two years ago, and I re-checked them.  They still look good.


- I am still running a (rebuilt) stock "moving shoe" conventional starter.
(If it is indeed the starter, I will probably go with a replacement PMGR starter.  I purchased the Ford conversion kit a couple of years ago for when the time comes.)


- I have a NOS Motorcraft ignition module.  (The older, original OEM style with MOTORCRAFT embossed in the case and the cool sticker with the lightning bolts on it.)  
- My timing has been set to 16 BTDC for about 10 years now and I haven't experienced any problems up until now.
- I do have a heat shied around the starter.


The first time this happened, I pulled the coil wire and turned the key again.  My thinking was to see if the starter would crank faster if I removed the timing out of the equation, but there was no change.

I don't think timing is the problem, because it has not changed from when I set it 10 years ago.  For that matter, I haven't changed anything.  And when I gave the starter and starter relay a couple of "love taps," the problem completely went away both times this problem occurred.

I just went out and cold started Lucille, and she instantly fired right up.  The starter problem only seems to happen when the engine is re-started hot.

Rick, I can only think your starter bushings or brushes are worn or the enamel on the windings has just seen too much heat over ten years. (or some combination of the above)
It would be interesting to open it up, have a look and ohm it out.

Yeah, you are probably right.

But hey, this is a good chance to replace it with a better PMGR starter.  Would I just get one from a 1992 Ford F150 with a 5.0 and AOD transmission?  

I'm pretty certain the PMGR began in 1992.
Be sure to get one for an automatic and not manual.
The ring gear has different backset on a flex plate than a flywheel.

I had the Mgr at AZ do a bunch of cross checking with parts numbers for 86 and 92 F150 with 351W and auto trans before I purchased my starter. The guy likes my truck, as he had one, and always goes overboard in helping me out. This, of course, to confirm fit. As such I bought my starter from them and got the one with a lifetime warranty.    

I'm curious about that "Ford conversion kit" you spoke of? What is included in this kit? Pictures?

Here is the kit I am referring to:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324143574809?epid=1211221459&hash=item4b78766f19:g:JuIAAOSw5bdeoEuV

Oh, so that's not the Y shaped starter cable like came on the '92-'97models...

Yep. 4.9's use the same starter too... the one I put on my 4.9 came originally from a 1993 5.0 (Yeah, too cheap to buy a brand new one. ). I think C6's and E40D's are also compatible... the only difference was between automatic and manual (snout/gear length change).

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The Ford Kit looks identical to the what I made for mine... Just happened to have the perfect length of 12 gauge red wire handy. A lot of starters (aftermarket especially) have provisions for a ring terminal for the solenoid... it's recommended to use this (re-crimp the new wire) instead of the original spade as ring terminals tend to hold up better and don't have the issue of getting "stuck" due to corrosion.

I've never seen a PMGR where the male spade wasn't just nutted down on the trigger stud.

Did they come from Ford where it wasn't removable?