What's a good drive train for good mileage daily driver?

[Ray Cecil]

I'm not going to go with an EcoBoost. That would be a more complicated swap than I'm up for. I'm going to stick with parts that came out of this vintage truck as they will go in easier. (I have thought about a Chevy LS swap. A little more complicated than '90s Ford parts, but with a lot of aftermarket support. But I think I don't really want to go there either.)

As to torque curves I found where a guy posted the dyno numbers off his 300. Not apples to apples as Gary's 302 numbers were a different source/method. But to compare:

300 302

1500 rpm 275 lb-ft

1800 rpm 224 lb-ft

2000 rpm 228 lb-ft 302 lb-ft

2200 rpm 238 lb-ft

2500 rpm 231 lb-ft 315 lb-ft

2700 rpm 227 lb-ft

3000 rpm 222 lb-ft 350 lb-ft

3400 rpm 200 lb-ft

3500 rpm 195 lb-ft

4000 rpm 362 lb-ft

4500 rpm 379 lb-ft

5000 rpm 356 lb-ft

5500 rpm 348 lb-ft

6000 rpm 315 lb-ft

Taking those numbers at face value, the 302 definitely has a wider torque curve, and has more torque than the 302 everywhere on the curve (which is what I've heard before).

But I do have to question your numbers on the 302. 315 lb-ft at 6000 rpm is 360 hp, which seems incredible (as in not being credible) for a stockish 302.

JUST SAYIN....

[Gary Lewis]

I'm not going to go with an EcoBoost. That would be a more complicated swap than I'm up for. I'm going to stick with parts that came out of this vintage truck as they will go in easier. (I have thought about a Chevy LS swap. A little more complicated than '90s Ford parts, but with a lot of aftermarket support. But I think I don't really want to go there either.)

As to torque curves I found where a guy posted the dyno numbers off his 300. Not apples to apples as Gary's 302 numbers were a different source/method. But to compare:

300 302

1500 rpm 275 lb-ft

1800 rpm 224 lb-ft

2000 rpm 228 lb-ft 302 lb-ft

2200 rpm 238 lb-ft

2500 rpm 231 lb-ft 315 lb-ft

2700 rpm 227 lb-ft

3000 rpm 222 lb-ft 350 lb-ft

3400 rpm 200 lb-ft

3500 rpm 195 lb-ft

4000 rpm 362 lb-ft

4500 rpm 379 lb-ft

5000 rpm 356 lb-ft

5500 rpm 348 lb-ft

6000 rpm 315 lb-ft

Taking those numbers at face value, the 302 definitely has a wider torque curve, and has more torque than the 302 everywhere on the curve (which is what I've heard before).

But I do have to question your numbers on the 302. 315 lb-ft at 6000 rpm is 360 hp, which seems incredible (as in not being credible) for a stockish 302.

Good point about the torque at 6K. Not very credible.

It would be nice to fine a place that gives credible numbers for both engines.

And I agree that the EB would be a more difficult swap. But I love mine. On the trip yesterday there were times people thought they could cut in front of me. In Sport mode it keeps the turbos spooled and you have power NOW.

[Ray Cecil]

Good point about the torque at 6K. Not very credible.

It would be nice to fine a place that gives credible numbers for both engines.

And I agree that the EB would be a more difficult swap. But I love mine. On the trip yesterday there were times people thought they could cut in front of me. In Sport mode it keeps the turbos spooled and you have power NOW.

AGAIN.....JUST SAYIN...

[Nothing Special]

AGAIN.....JUST SAYIN...

Impressive, but not really germane. I'm not looking for a 517 hp engine. I'm looking for good mileage and driveability in an engine that would be a reasonable project to put in a '90s F-150.

One thing I got out of this video is that no turbo systems are available for a 300, so it would be a roll-yer-own project. That is probably outside the scope of what I'm willing to take on here, so I'm now leaning pretty hard away from a turbo 300.

[Ford F834]

Gary, I hope you're enjoying your vacation! Lesley and I will be at Walt Disney World again soon as well!

(I know this sounds like I have my mind made up on the 302. I really don't, and I still want more discussion on this if people are willing. But most of the recommendations are coming for the 300, so I'm more taking the other side here to keep the discussion going.)

Keeping in mind that this will be a "project vehicle" (if it ever actually comes to be), there's no problem with an F-150 with a 302 and a ZF5, or a 351 and a Mazda trans, or whatever engine/trans combination I decide on with whatever gears I want.

My concern with the 300 is that I'm afraid the mileage will fall off pretty badly if it's over-taxed, and I'm afraid that it would be overtaxed pretty easily. Now maybe some low axle gears would prevent that, at the expense of empty mileage. But maybe a Gear Vendors would address that. Or maybe a turbo would let it pull a little taller gears.

Also I'm thinking a 300 (at least without a turbo) has a relatively narrow torque curve. It does well down low, but sort of falls on its face as it winds out. So the narrower splits of the Mazda trans might be a better fit for it. (A ZF5 with Gear Vendors would have narrower splits as well, but if a lot of shifting is needed it might be nicer having a lighter-shifting trans.)

The 302 is known as a revver, but on paper at least it has more torque everywhere on its torque curve than a 300 does. Again, I know that's on paper, that lots of people love the 300 as a truck motor, no one ever claims the 302 is a great truck motor and Ford never put the 302 into anything heavier than a standard 3/4 ton while the 300 went into medium-duty trucks. Still, if it has it on paper it can't be all that terrible. And I do have some experience with the 302 in my Bronco, which I wouldn't call a great truck engine, but it isn't terrible.

As a revver the 302 gets into the "don't fear the gear" zone. I hear the mileage doesn't really fall off as you go up to even 4.10 gears. I have 4.10s and 33" tires on my Bronco with an NV3550 (similar to the Mazda 5 speed). It has more than enough low-end torque to get rolling with about a 3000 lb trailer (the heaviest I've ever towed with it). And I'm told I'd get similar if not better mileage if I went to 4.56 gears (pushing a lifted brick through the air with 33" tires).

I think the 302 also has a wider torque band than the 300. It certainly goes higher, and while it doesn't have the reputation for low end that the 300 has, it doesn't completely fall off there either. So a 302 should be able to pull wider gear spreads, which is why I'm thinking a ZF5 might be a good choice there. A significantly lower first gear than the Mazda trans to get things going, but still a good (better?) overdrive ratio for cruising.

Hi Bob,

 

I have a few more tidbits for your data table. As I’m sure you are aware, I own a 300… but I don’t necessarily advocate it for what you are wanting. I am just going to toss some observations out there that may help you to decide.

 

For efficiency, my 4x4 F150 gets about 17mpg on the highway and 15-ish mixed driving. I have 3.00 gears a close ratio diesel T19 transmission and 235/85R16 tires. That 17mpg starts to fall off to 15-ish again if I drive faster than ~65mph. I would say that my combo is happiest about 62mph. Towing a 5,000 lb. travel trailer I get 10mpg all day long pretty much no matter what I do, and it is very slow on any kind of grade.

 

Please excuse the bow tie profanity, but I also have a 2000 Chevy Tahoe Z71. It was the last year of the 350 engine and was the only year that got individual cylinder fuel injection. This vehicle gets almost identical highway and mixed driving mpg compared to the 300 (I have never towed with it). I will say that it has considerably more punch than the 300, and hits 75+mph effortlessly. There is no denying that the more modern fuel injection technology and overdrive win hands down at least for light work and cruising. By comparison the 300 is a slow ox. Slow to accelerate and a lower (comfortable) top speed. The 300 is capable of things I wouldn’t attempt with the Tahoe’s drive train (especially the transmission) and I prefer the 300 off-pavement… but the EFI 350 gets around quicker for commuting and errands. If that is your primary use, you may be happier with a EFI 302 or 351. This is not a recommendation against a 300 (which is my favored Ford gas engine of this era), but an acknowledgement that a tractor isn’t ideal or every occasion.

 

As a guy who has owned a manual 4x4 with a GVOD unit, I do not recommend it. It is awkward and clunky to use, and the minimum speed limitation is a real drag in stop and go driving. It drops out of overdrive when you are slowing down with the clutch in. It’s easy to forget what you are doing with the push pull switch which messes up your shift timing if you forget to push the switch in after the speed limiter knocks it into direct drive below 25mph. I will probably still use the GVOD when I rebuild my crew cab, but only because I have it. I wouldn’t pay what they cost (even used) over other methods of achieving the same final drive ratio. Granted, this was with 4.10’s and a T19 so I was actually using the overdrive in my shift sequence at about 40 mph in 4th, so I was shifting in and out of overdrive between traffic lights. Still, after having owned one my preference would be an axle ratio and transmission that gave me the gear spread that I wanted. Keep in mind, too, that the Ranger OD option won’t work with an integral bellhousing transmission, so you are basically turning a 4 speed into a 5 speed. A 5 speed will be smoother to operate than an aux OD, and with any luck you might find a truck that already has it.

 

Just as a side bar, the 1980-1991 Supercab slatted rear windows can actually be replaced with 92+ single piece rear windows and trim. I have read that it is a tight fit, but that it works without too much trouble if you find a Bullnose or Bricknose that you like but cannot stomach the rear window design.

[Ray Cecil]

Hi Bob,

 

I have a few more tidbits for your data table. As I’m sure you are aware, I own a 300… but I don’t necessarily advocate it for what you are wanting. I am just going to toss some observations out there that may help you to decide.

 

For efficiency, my 4x4 F150 gets about 17mpg on the highway and 15-ish mixed driving. I have 3.00 gears a close ratio diesel T19 transmission and 235/85R16 tires. That 17mpg starts to fall off to 15-ish again if I drive faster than ~65mph. I would say that my combo is happiest about 62mph. Towing a 5,000 lb. travel trailer I get 10mpg all day long pretty much no matter what I do, and it is very slow on any kind of grade.

 

Please excuse the bow tie profanity, but I also have a 2000 Chevy Tahoe Z71. It was the last year of the 350 engine and was the only year that got individual cylinder fuel injection. This vehicle gets almost identical highway and mixed driving mpg compared to the 300 (I have never towed with it). I will say that it has considerably more punch than the 300, and hits 75+mph effortlessly. There is no denying that the more modern fuel injection technology and overdrive win hands down at least for light work and cruising. By comparison the 300 is a slow ox. Slow to accelerate and a lower (comfortable) top speed. The 300 is capable of things I wouldn’t attempt with the Tahoe’s drive train (especially the transmission) and I prefer the 300 off-pavement… but the EFI 350 gets around quicker for commuting and errands. If that is your primary use, you may be happier with a EFI 302 or 351. This is not a recommendation against a 300 (which is my favored Ford gas engine of this era), but an acknowledgement that a tractor isn’t ideal or every occasion.

 

As a guy who has owned a manual 4x4 with a GVOD unit, I do not recommend it. It is awkward and clunky to use, and the minimum speed limitation is a real drag in stop and go driving. It drops out of overdrive when you are slowing down with the clutch in. It’s easy to forget what you are doing with the push pull switch which messes up your shift timing if you forget to push the switch in after the speed limiter knocks it into direct drive below 25mph. I will probably still use the GVOD when I rebuild my crew cab, but only because I have it. I wouldn’t pay what they cost (even used) over other methods of achieving the same final drive ratio. Granted, this was with 4.10’s and a T19 so I was actually using the overdrive in my shift sequence at about 40 mph in 4th, so I was shifting in and out of overdrive between traffic lights. Still, after having owned one my preference would be an axle ratio and transmission that gave me the gear spread that I wanted. Keep in mind, too, that the Ranger OD option won’t work with an integral bellhousing transmission, so you are basically turning a 4 speed into a 5 speed. A 5 speed will be smoother to operate than an aux OD, and with any luck you might find a truck that already has it.

 

Just as a side bar, the 1980-1991 Supercab slatted rear windows can actually be replaced with 92+ single piece rear windows and trim. I have read that it is a tight fit, but that it works without too much trouble if you find a Bullnose or Bricknose that you like but cannot stomach the rear window design.

Gearvendors control units have 2 modes. Auto and Manual. I keep mine in manual and have a floor switch. Its very easy to use and shifts 10x faster than the C6. Sounds like Bob might have a different setup than I do. Yes, its expensive, but is super easy to install Id rather have 2X the gears and just hit that floor switch whenever od is needed. I don't use the OD running unloaded through town until I am in 3rd gear and just cruising. It does have a speed sensor that tie into your mechanical speedo cable and will kick out of OD below 20mph for safety......so you don't forget its engaged and try putting it in reverse.....

Whatever you do, I hope you have fun doing it. Glad Im not concerned about fuel mileage anymore.

[Nothing Special]

.... For efficiency, my 4x4 F150 gets about 17mpg on the highway and 15-ish mixed driving....

I feel like those sort of numbers ought to be possible with a 302, again, likely with better heads and maybe long tube headers. There's a guy on FTE who has a lifted F-150 with a 351 built like that. I think he's around 15 mpg. With an unlifted truck and a 302 I think I could do better.

.... but the EFI 350 gets around quicker for commuting and errands. If that is your primary use, you may be happier with a EFI 302 or 351. This is not a recommendation against a 300 (which is my favored Ford gas engine of this era), but an acknowledgement that a tractor isn’t ideal or every occasion....

This is what's leaning me toward a 302. Not that I've decided against the 300 yet (I don't need to make any decision for a few months at least). But my gut says I should be able to get about the same mileage with a little better driveability (for what I need) out of the 302. But if others think otherwise I'm happy to hear why!

 

.... Just as a side bar, the 1980-1991 Supercab slatted rear windows can actually be replaced with 92+ single piece rear windows and trim. I have read that it is a tight fit, but that it works without too much trouble if you find a Bullnose or Bricknose that you like but cannot stomach the rear window design.

Good to know. But given that a solid body is a requirement I'm probably more likely to find a '92-'96 anyway.

Gearvendors control units have 2 modes. Auto and Manual. I keep mine in manual and have a floor switch. Its very easy to use and shifts 10x faster than the C6. Sounds like Bob might have a different setup than I do. Yes, its expensive, but is super easy to install Id rather have 2X the gears and just hit that floor switch whenever od is needed. I don't use the OD running unloaded through town until I am in 3rd gear and just cruising. It does have a speed sensor that tie into your mechanical speedo cable and will kick out of OD below 20mph for safety......so you don't forget its engaged and try putting it in reverse.....

Whatever you do, I hope you have fun doing it. Glad Im not concerned about fuel mileage anymore.

My understanding is that the Gear Vendors has a hydraulic clutch in it, and that if the input rpm isn't high enough the hydraulic pressure could be too low so the clutch might slip, or not stay engaged, which could damage the unit. If I heard that correctly that's the reason for it kicking out at lower speeds.

And thanks, I think it will be fun! I can't really say that I'm all that concerned about fuel economy either (I am still looking at 25+ year old technology that any truck off the showroom floor would beat!). But I don't need to be commuting in an F-250HD crew cab with a 460, auto trans and 4.10 gears either!

 

[Gary Lewis]

.... For efficiency, my 4x4 F150 gets about 17mpg on the highway and 15-ish mixed driving....

I feel like those sort of numbers ought to be possible with a 302, again, likely with better heads and maybe long tube headers. There's a guy on FTE who has a lifted F-150 with a 351 built like that. I think he's around 15 mpg. With an unlifted truck and a 302 I think I could do better.

.... but the EFI 350 gets around quicker for commuting and errands. If that is your primary use, you may be happier with a EFI 302 or 351. This is not a recommendation against a 300 (which is my favored Ford gas engine of this era), but an acknowledgement that a tractor isn’t ideal or every occasion....

This is what's leaning me toward a 302. Not that I've decided against the 300 yet (I don't need to make any decision for a few months at least). But my gut says I should be able to get about the same mileage with a little better driveability (for what I need) out of the 302. But if others think otherwise I'm happy to hear why!

 

.... Just as a side bar, the 1980-1991 Supercab slatted rear windows can actually be replaced with 92+ single piece rear windows and trim. I have read that it is a tight fit, but that it works without too much trouble if you find a Bullnose or Bricknose that you like but cannot stomach the rear window design.

Good to know. But given that a solid body is a requirement I'm probably more likely to find a '92-'96 anyway.

Gearvendors control units have 2 modes. Auto and Manual. I keep mine in manual and have a floor switch. Its very easy to use and shifts 10x faster than the C6. Sounds like Bob might have a different setup than I do. Yes, its expensive, but is super easy to install Id rather have 2X the gears and just hit that floor switch whenever od is needed. I don't use the OD running unloaded through town until I am in 3rd gear and just cruising. It does have a speed sensor that tie into your mechanical speedo cable and will kick out of OD below 20mph for safety......so you don't forget its engaged and try putting it in reverse.....

Whatever you do, I hope you have fun doing it. Glad Im not concerned about fuel mileage anymore.

My understanding is that the Gear Vendors has a hydraulic clutch in it, and that if the input rpm isn't high enough the hydraulic pressure could be too low so the clutch might slip, or not stay engaged, which could damage the unit. If I heard that correctly that's the reason for it kicking out at lower speeds.

And thanks, I think it will be fun! I can't really say that I'm all that concerned about fuel economy either (I am still looking at 25+ year old technology that any truck off the showroom floor would beat!). But I don't need to be commuting in an F-250HD crew cab with a 460, auto trans and 4.10 gears either!

Since I get 13 with Big Blue I’d sure hope a 351W in a lighter truck, even if lifted, should get 15. And unless you are pushing it I’d think a 302 could easily beat that.

[Nothing Special]

Since I get 13 with Big Blue I’d sure hope a 351W in a lighter truck, even if lifted, should get 15. And unless you are pushing it I’d think a 302 could easily beat that.

It would be nice to be at least 20 mpg on the freeway at 60~65 mph, and ~15 mpg in my day-to-day driving (which is mostly short 55 mph freeway trips). I don't know how realistic that is, but it would be nice!

[81-F150-Explorer]

I’ve never owned a 300 six, but I would like too. I’ve heard them called slow or lazy, but I’m a torque fan.

Slow, yes in stock form. Lazy? Never. :)

15 years ago my 300 would get 21 MPG easy. But it is geared for best economy at 55MPH max. So the sweet spot for my truck is 1800 RPM at 55 MPH.

The fuel is not what it was 15 years ago, so I get 18 MPG now at 55mph.

My advise ....

I would figure out how fast you drive on your average commute, (55MPH/65/70MPH) etc, then gear toward that MPH with your preferred drivetrain, so the sweet spot RPM for your engine aligns with that MPH.