Nothing Special's Ouray Colorado Trip, 2018

[Gary Lewis]

I don't mind any additional discussion in my thread. You may want to keep more of it in yours for simplicity, but since it's already split in two and you asked here...

The main think I'm looking for in new tires is to better protect my nice stock '95 F-150 Alcoa wheels. I'm scraping them up too much. I think they're 8" wide with 10.5" wide tires. I want to go with 12.5" wide tires on probably still 8" rims. I'll keep my current wheels and tires for street driving, but have another set for 'wheeling.

With dedicated wheels for 'wheeling (if I do that) I'm thinking I'll get beadlocks. I've never lost a bead at 15 psi, but some pictures have made it look like I'm close. And it would be nice to be able to air down lower for better ride and better traction on the more serious trails (Poughkeepsie is just borderline serious, Spring Creek is very serious now).

And bigger always seems better. I might still stay with 33" tires, but if I can fit 35s, that might be nice on the more serious trails (37s would be better yet, but I'm sure those won't fit without more work, and Lesley doesn't want to have to climb even higher to get in).

And finally, my BFG ATs are just about worn out, so I simply need new tires. If I have two sets I'll probably get more aggressive for 'wheeling and stay with all terrains for street. But even new all terrains would've helped a lot on Poughkeepsie.

Even so, my tires were fine for Ouray. It was Spring Creek where I more felt the need for better (and probably bigger) tires.

So for you in the Ouray area, I wouldn't worry about your tires. Most of the cars/trucks I saw on the trails had some sort of mild all terrain, or even closer to a street tire. As long as your tires are in decent shape just about anything will be fine (although I would recommend at least load range C to avoid sidewall damage, but I doubt that's an issue with Big Blue!).

On the rock sliders, if you start doing really serious 'wheeling, when you intentionally plant a rock slider on a rock to pivot the vehicle around, yours probably won't hold up. But for what you're talking about I think they'll be fine. The only iffy place would be if you tried the far right line on the Wall. You'd probably highcenter and need to drag across, and they might not hold up to that. So just don't do that line!

So, the Load Range E's on Big Blue might be adequate? Seriously though, does the stiffness of the sidewall change the amount of air you need in the tire? In other words, can you air down more or less with a LR C than a LR E?

As for serious 'wheeling, I really doubt that's going to happen. So the step bars will do for sliders. And if they get bent then I can replace them as they bolt on - with big bolts.

For your new tires & wheels, since you might have two sets then it does make sense to go about as big as you can handle. You won't change your overall gearing by enough to notice when in low gears, and you won't be running on the highway much with the big tires, so the loss of torque won't be noticed.

[Nothing Special]

So, the Load Range E's on Big Blue might be adequate? Seriously though, does the stiffness of the sidewall change the amount of air you need in the tire? In other words, can you air down more or less with a LR C than a LR E?

As for serious 'wheeling, I really doubt that's going to happen. So the step bars will do for sliders. And if they get bent then I can replace them as they bolt on - with big bolts.

For your new tires & wheels, since you might have two sets then it does make sense to go about as big as you can handle. You won't change your overall gearing by enough to notice when in low gears, and you won't be running on the highway much with the big tires, so the loss of torque won't be noticed.

Generally you can (and need to) air a stiffer tire down farther than a softer tire. You're trying to get the tire to comply better with the rocks (so it can grip any edges better) as well as soften the ride so it doesn't beat you up. Stiff sidewalls do not help with this, but they're still OK when aired down enough.

Vehicle weight makes a difference obviously too. Suzuki Samurais can run about 0 psi, just the sidewalls will hold them up! Big Blue will need more air than that obviously. You want to go at lest until you start seeing a sidewall bulge. That'll probably be around 20 psi or so. And a little lower will help more with the ride and handling off-road, but be worse when you get back to the highway, and get closer to losing a bead.

For a while I had 235/85-16E tires on my CJ5. I ran those at 15 psi. That worked OK, but it was a lot nicer when I put 33/12.50x15Cs on it! And on my one Colorado 'wheeling trip in my '85 F-250 I left the 235/85-16Es at 40 rear / 50 front. Traction-wise I was OK, but the ride was brutal (I had no way to air them back up, and was pretty green at the time).

[Gary Lewis]

Generally you can (and need to) air a stiffer tire down farther than a softer tire. You're trying to get the tire to comply better with the rocks (so it can grip any edges better) as well as soften the ride so it doesn't beat you up. Stiff sidewalls do not help with this, but they're still OK when aired down enough.

Vehicle weight makes a difference obviously too. Suzuki Samurais can run about 0 psi, just the sidewalls will hold them up! Big Blue will need more air than that obviously. You want to go at lest until you start seeing a sidewall bulge. That'll probably be around 20 psi or so. And a little lower will help more with the ride and handling off-road, but be worse when you get back to the highway, and get closer to losing a bead.

For a while I had 235/85-16E tires on my CJ5. I ran those at 15 psi. That worked OK, but it was a lot nicer when I put 33/12.50x15Cs on it! And on my one Colorado 'wheeling trip in my '85 F-250 I left the 235/85-16Es at 40 rear / 50 front. Traction-wise I was OK, but the ride was brutal (I had no way to air them back up, and was pretty green at the time).

I thought that the sidewall would make a big difference in how much you can/should air down. But obviously there's the bead issue with going down too far. And that's one area that Vernon didn't throw big bucks at - the wheels. Given what he did elsewhere I'm surprised that they aren't bead locks. Instead they are plain steel wheels. (I'm not griping, just observing.)

 

[Nothing Special]

I thought that the sidewall would make a big difference in how much you can/should air down. But obviously there's the bead issue with going down too far. And that's one area that Vernon didn't throw big bucks at - the wheels. Given what he did elsewhere I'm surprised that they aren't bead locks. Instead they are plain steel wheels. (I'm not griping, just observing.)

Very few beadlock wheels are DOT-approved. I'm not sure what "DOT-approved" really means. As I understand you don't need DOT-approved wheels to run on the street. But it is a potential factor that might lead some to not use them unless they were really desired.

And I've heard that it's extremely difficult to balance beadlocks well. Of course I've also heard that it's no problem at all to balance beadlocks well, so take that for what little it's worth. But it's another potential reason to not use beadlocks "just because".

[Gary Lewis]

Very few beadlock wheels are DOT-approved. I'm not sure what "DOT-approved" really means. As I understand you don't need DOT-approved wheels to run on the street. But it is a potential factor that might lead some to not use them unless they were really desired.

And I've heard that it's extremely difficult to balance beadlocks well. Of course I've also heard that it's no problem at all to balance beadlocks well, so take that for what little it's worth. But it's another potential reason to not use beadlocks "just because".

Wasn't aware of any of that. Might be why Vernon didn't go with beadlocks. Makes sense.

[Nothing Special]

Wasn't aware of any of that. Might be why Vernon didn't go with beadlocks. Makes sense.

I finally started a YouTube channel so now I can post the videos we took on this trip three years ago. I'm editing the videos in back where they fit in this thread, but I'll stick all of them from this trip here at the end as well.

This first one is just a very short clip of part of "The Steps" on Black Bear Road.

The next one is Poughkeepsie Gulch on the day when we actually drove up The Wall. There's a short clip of an optional line a little below The Wall. This is another commercial for a front locker as I can't make it over a rock at about 0:20 with the front locker disengaged and then make it pretty easily after engaging the locker. (By the way, this was on a pretty steep climb as well).

The rest of the video is many of my attempts (and eventual success) on The Wall.

Finally is a short clip on Spring Creek Trail on Obstacle 2, another place I don't know if I would have made with an open front diff. And here you can tell that I tore the other motor mount and opened up the exhaust again!

Thanks for watching!

[Gary Lewis]

I finally started a YouTube channel so now I can post the videos we took on this trip three years ago. I'm editing the videos in back where they fit in this thread, but I'll stick all of them from this trip here at the end as well.

This first one is just a very short clip of part of "The Steps" on Black Bear Road.

The next one is Poughkeepsie Gulch on the day when we actually drove up The Wall. There's a short clip of an optional line a little below The Wall. This is another commercial for a front locker as I can't make it over a rock at about 0:20 with the front locker disengaged and then make it pretty easily after engaging the locker. (By the way, this was on a pretty steep climb as well).

The rest of the video is many of my attempts (and eventual success) on The Wall.

Finally is a short clip on Spring Creek Trail on Obstacle 2, another place I don't know if I would have made with an open front diff. And here you can tell that I tore the other motor mount and opened up the exhaust again!

Thanks for watching!

Finally have a chance to look at the latest videos:

• Black Bear Steps: Thanks for including the Black Bear Pass sign. As you know, that's as far as we got with Big Blue. Still would like to make it all the way.

• Poughkeepsie Gulch: Where you engaged the locker is about where Mike, in his 4Runner, had to engage his locker, but there seem to be fewer rocks now. And, I think you may have had the same driver's ed teacher that I had since you seem to signal for turns even on the trail. But at The Wall things got dicey. I think I echoed Lesley's "eek!" But, you made it. (Sure glad we didn't try that. )

• Spring Creek Trail: Man, you sure seem to find hard trails. But you get through things well. So, what seems to be the problem with the mount tearing?

[Nothing Special]

Finally have a chance to look at the latest videos:

• Black Bear Steps: Thanks for including the Black Bear Pass sign. As you know, that's as far as we got with Big Blue. Still would like to make it all the way.

• Poughkeepsie Gulch: Where you engaged the locker is about where Mike, in his 4Runner, had to engage his locker, but there seem to be fewer rocks now. And, I think you may have had the same driver's ed teacher that I had since you seem to signal for turns even on the trail. But at The Wall things got dicey. I think I echoed Lesley's "eek!" But, you made it. (Sure glad we didn't try that. )

• Spring Creek Trail: Man, you sure seem to find hard trails. But you get through things well. So, what seems to be the problem with the mount tearing?

I tore the driver's side mount first. That's the mount that's in tension, so it will tear a lot easier. I built a "bomb proof" mount to replace it where the rubber is in compression no matter which way the force is on the mount, but I kept the stock mount on the passenger's side. Then I tor the passenger side mount, so I replaced it with a bomb-proof mount as well. I shoud be good now!

[Gary Lewis]

I tore the driver's side mount first. That's the mount that's in tension, so it will tear a lot easier. I built a "bomb proof" mount to replace it where the rubber is in compression no matter which way the force is on the mount, but I kept the stock mount on the passenger's side. Then I tor the passenger side mount, so I replaced it with a bomb-proof mount as well. I shoud be good now!

Any idea why or how you were pulling them apart?

I realize that with the crawl ratio you had a lot of torque at the wheels, but you didn't have any more at the engine. However, now that I think about it the "engine" mounts are really mounts for the whole engine/transmission/t-case module, so it isn't the engine's torque but the torque that the module puts out, and you doubled or trebled it.

Hadn't really thought of it that way, but now it makes sense.

[Nothing Special]

Any idea why or how you were pulling them apart?

I realize that with the crawl ratio you had a lot of torque at the wheels, but you didn't have any more at the engine. However, now that I think about it the "engine" mounts are really mounts for the whole engine/transmission/t-case module, so it isn't the engine's torque but the torque that the module puts out, and you doubled or trebled it.

Hadn't really thought of it that way, but now it makes sense.

Exactly, it's not the motor torque that needs a reaction, it's the driveshaft torque. And while I'm not getting 16.12 (edit, actually 17.2 if I could enter the right numbers into a calculator) times the full torque of a 302 (because I'm never giving it the full torque of a 302 when it's in low-low), it does take a lot of torque to "idle" up some of these rocks. Not having to do it at a higher speed reduces the power (proportional to speed) and energy (proportional to the speed squared) so it is a lot easier on equipment with lower gears. But it's still the same torque needed, so it's not like it's nothing.

And 40-some years of use and soaking in oil I'm sure didn't do the rubber any favors either! After thinking about it when the first one went I realized that tearing that old mount was a given, and I shouldn't expect much better from a new one so I built the stronger one. But I did think the passenger's side would hold up so I put it back on. It only lasted another trip or two, even being stressed mainly in compression. But it is in tension in reverse, and it was old and oil-soaked too. A new stock mount might have been fine, but I decided to build an overkill mount for that side too.