Fuel Injection System Musings

[Gary Lewis]

My opinion: OBDII or not by the time your kids have it they'll have a fun trip finding someone willing to work on it either way. A lot of mechanics and shops frown upon dealing with somebody else's custom work... And the ones who do would likely be just as fine with an off the shelf Holley or Edelbrock kit. That said, part availability likely is better for the EEC-V setup... Pick your poison.

Assuming the problem is with the EFI, which is all a scanner plugged into the OBD-II port would tell you about, then it won't be custom. It'll be a 1996 CA-spec 460, and the codes will be stock Ford ones, so that will tell the tech what the problem is.

[ratdude747]

Assuming the problem is with the EFI, which is all a scanner plugged into the OBD-II port would tell you about, then it won't be custom. It'll be a 1996 CA-spec 460, and the codes will be stock Ford ones, so that will tell the tech what the problem is.

On Sniper, there is no scanning... as the touchscreen pendant is part of the system. I'd have to look, but I'm pretty sure it has some form of diagnostics built in... but yeah, geared more towards petrolheads than general users.

[Gary Lewis]

On Sniper, there is no scanning... as the touchscreen pendant is part of the system. I'd have to look, but I'm pretty sure it has some form of diagnostics built in... but yeah, geared more towards petrolheads than general users.

My son is a lawyer and not a gear head. My daughter is a to-be nurse and - not a gear head. Neither will be able to fix anything, but they'll be able to take it somewhere to be fixed. And around here we have general mechanics who have scan tools, things that say the O2 sensor is weak or the engine coolant temp sensor has failed. Those are the kinds of failures I'm expecting the OBD-II port to tell the mechanic about.

[Gary Lewis]

My son is a lawyer and not a gear head. My daughter is a to-be nurse and - not a gear head. Neither will be able to fix anything, but they'll be able to take it somewhere to be fixed. And around here we have general mechanics who have scan tools, things that say the O2 sensor is weak or the engine coolant temp sensor has failed. Those are the kinds of failures I'm expecting the OBD-II port to tell the mechanic about.

Bill, and others, I'd like to pick your brains on MAF sensors and get some thoughts on the best approach for me.

Let me set the stage:

• I have a used Motorcraft F5OF sensor and aluminum housing, which are the correct ones for a '96 F250 with EEC-V. I have no idea if the sensor works, but I've blasted and PC'd the casting to better than new.

• I have a new Cardone 86-9524 sensor & housing that are said to be replacements for the F5OF. The sensor will fit on the Motorcraft housing that I've PC'd but the old sensor won't fit on the new housing.

• I have a used XL3F-12B579-BA sensor and plastic housing on the way from ebay for $14. This was used on a Jaguar but is surely a Motorcraft since Ford owned Jag.

• David found a "new takeoff" XL3F-12B579-BA sensor only for $18. Oddly enough, the pic below shows a profile of that sensor and the inlet air temp (IAT) sensor is clearly visible.

Now, to my questions. The F5OF is rated to 541 CFM and the XL3F is rated at 582 CFM. It seems reasonable to me that I should go with the XL3F. Right? (In that case I'll return the $85 Cardone unit.)

But, are all XL3F's the same? Will the IAT sensor be on the one I have coming in? If so is there an advantage to using that one - it looks like it will be more in the air stream than the one in the side of the air box.

Speaking of the one I ordered, it is due to arrive between now and Friday so I'll be able to answer that question firsthand then. But I wanted to get a discussion going.

 

[Rusty_S85]

Gary,

I saw a comment on one of the Facebook Bullnose groups the other day where a guy said, "Why on earth would anybody buy an archiac device like a carburetor when there are so many aftermarket EFI systems available that work so much better?". I didn't read the comments, but the obvious answer is price, if not simplicity, or both of those things together. I thought your thread was timely considering this was fresh in my mind from the past couple days.

Prior to me turning back in time and buying my 1984 Bullnose project in 2017, I had played around with ECU tuning in everything that I had owned for years previously. Anything that I could buy software for, I did, and used it too (Cars, and EFI motorcycles mostly). Problem is, the newer the vehicle is, the less improvements there are for the vehicle owner to make....you're basically left removing emissions tunes, or safety tunes (rev limiters or speed limiters). Still, they were fun to play with.

I may still install and aftermarket EFI system in my current project with the freshly rebuilt 5.0L engine. Time (and pocketbook) will tell. I will be installing a transmission controller for the 4R70W, and since there is no kickdown rod or cable like on older transmissions, I'll have to install a TPS on the side of the carburetor. That in itself has me thinking to just go with EFI, and make the complete jump...since the EFI TPS with interface with the transmission stand alone controller. Theoretically, they should work seamlessly together.

Price is a major determining factor but that price point will come down. When Holley introduced their aftermarket EFI that system was pushing $4,500 - $5,500 for the setup. You can now buy a Sniper or Sniper stealth EFI system for under $1,500 or you can buy their Terminator for roughly $1,500 that will plug and play with the OE ECC IV system but replace the Ford computer with the Holley computer that allows for easy tuning.

If my sniper Stealth doesnt provide me with what I need I may very well replace the unit with a Foxbody era factory EFI intake system and swap over to the Terminator wiring and computer system. I avoided that because for me it would end up being more work but I didnt triple check so I may have more work for myself anyways as far as throttle and kick down rod goes for my application which I wanted to avoid by going with a carb like TBI setup.

[85lebaront2]

Bill, and others, I'd like to pick your brains on MAF sensors and get some thoughts on the best approach for me.

Let me set the stage:

• I have a used Motorcraft F5OF sensor and aluminum housing, which are the correct ones for a '96 F250 with EEC-V. I have no idea if the sensor works, but I've blasted and PC'd the casting to better than new.

• I have a new Cardone 86-9524 sensor & housing that are said to be replacements for the F5OF. The sensor will fit on the Motorcraft housing that I've PC'd but the old sensor won't fit on the new housing.

• I have a used XL3F-12B579-BA sensor and plastic housing on the way from ebay for $14. This was used on a Jaguar but is surely a Motorcraft since Ford owned Jag.

• David found a "new takeoff" XL3F-12B579-BA sensor only for $18. Oddly enough, the pic below shows a profile of that sensor and the inlet air temp (IAT) sensor is clearly visible.

Now, to my questions. The F5OF is rated to 541 CFM and the XL3F is rated at 582 CFM. It seems reasonable to me that I should go with the XL3F. Right? (In that case I'll return the $85 Cardone unit.)

But, are all XL3F's the same? Will the IAT sensor be on the one I have coming in? If so is there an advantage to using that one - it looks like it will be more in the air stream than the one in the side of the air box.

Speaking of the one I ordered, it is due to arrive between now and Friday so I'll be able to answer that question firsthand then. But I wanted to get a discussion going.

First item, the XL3F-12B579-BA was also used on Mustang GT 4.6L, Trucks with the 5.4L (I one sitting here from my best friend's 2003 E250 5.4L). The XL3F has the IAT sensor built in, but I see no reason it could just not be used and keep the existing air filter mounted one. In the event the XL3F MAF doesn't work well, then switching back would be easy. Since the connector on the MAF has the four pins for the MAF in the center, and if the IAT is in it, the two unused end pins are installed and the harness connectors have provision for six pins with the two end ones blanked if not used. The E250 unit is inside the air filter assembly with an external round eight pin plug for connecting to the vehicle harness.

The tuning software has the provision to import a different MAF table. FWIW, the used F5OF unit I purchased on eBay is plastic but has the same actual sensor as the metal one. I am going to look for a connector for the MAF sensor with the built in IAT and add it onto Darth so I can use one of those MAFs and unplug the air filter IAT.

[85lebaront2]

Gary,

I saw a comment on one of the Facebook Bullnose groups the other day where a guy said, "Why on earth would anybody buy an archiac device like a carburetor when there are so many aftermarket EFI systems available that work so much better?". I didn't read the comments, but the obvious answer is price, if not simplicity, or both of those things together. I thought your thread was timely considering this was fresh in my mind from the past couple days.

Prior to me turning back in time and buying my 1984 Bullnose project in 2017, I had played around with ECU tuning in everything that I had owned for years previously. Anything that I could buy software for, I did, and used it too (Cars, and EFI motorcycles mostly). Problem is, the newer the vehicle is, the less improvements there are for the vehicle owner to make....you're basically left removing emissions tunes, or safety tunes (rev limiters or speed limiters). Still, they were fun to play with.

I may still install and aftermarket EFI system in my current project with the freshly rebuilt 5.0L engine. Time (and pocketbook) will tell. I will be installing a transmission controller for the 4R70W, and since there is no kickdown rod or cable like on older transmissions, I'll have to install a TPS on the side of the carburetor. That in itself has me thinking to just go with EFI, and make the complete jump...since the EFI TPS with interface with the transmission stand alone controller. Theoretically, they should work seamlessly together.

Price is a major determining factor but that price point will come down. When Holley introduced their aftermarket EFI that system was pushing $4,500 - $5,500 for the setup. You can now buy a Sniper or Sniper stealth EFI system for under $1,500 or you can buy their Terminator for roughly $1,500 that will plug and play with the OE ECC IV system but replace the Ford computer with the Holley computer that allows for easy tuning.

If my sniper Stealth doesnt provide me with what I need I may very well replace the unit with a Foxbody era factory EFI intake system and swap over to the Terminator wiring and computer system. I avoided that because for me it would end up being more work but I didnt triple check so I may have more work for myself anyways as far as throttle and kick down rod goes for my application which I wanted to avoid by going with a carb like TBI setup.

Rusty, the Holley Terminator, does it provide transmission control functions? I ask for two reasons, Rembrandt is planning on a 4R70 or 75W which is computer controlled and I have an E4OD in Darth.

With the EEC-V systems the computer can be tuned using the correct software and hardware.

[Gary Lewis]

First item, the XL3F-12B579-BA was also used on Mustang GT 4.6L, Trucks with the 5.4L (I one sitting here from my best friend's 2003 E250 5.4L). The XL3F has the IAT sensor built in, but I see no reason it could just not be used and keep the existing air filter mounted one. In the event the XL3F MAF doesn't work well, then switching back would be easy. Since the connector on the MAF has the four pins for the MAF in the center, and if the IAT is in it, the two unused end pins are installed and the harness connectors have provision for six pins with the two end ones blanked if not used. The E250 unit is inside the air filter assembly with an external round eight pin plug for connecting to the vehicle harness.

The tuning software has the provision to import a different MAF table. FWIW, the used F5OF unit I purchased on eBay is plastic but has the same actual sensor as the metal one. I am going to look for a connector for the MAF sensor with the built in IAT and add it onto Darth so I can use one of those MAFs and unplug the air filter IAT.

David - Thank you. It is slowly coming together. More later.

Bill - Thanks. I'm leaning to using the XL3F sensor that's coming in some time this week. But I don't think that sensor will fit the cast housing, so my work there might be for naught. We shall see.

And if it has the IAT sensor in it I might look for the right connector and use it instead of the other one. But that's more work, so we'll see what happens. Anyway, if you find a source for the connector please let me know.

Last, we'll have to have a conversation about loading MAF tables a bit farther down the road.

[85lebaront2]

David - Thank you. It is slowly coming together. More later.

Bill - Thanks. I'm leaning to using the XL3F sensor that's coming in some time this week. But I don't think that sensor will fit the cast housing, so my work there might be for naught. We shall see.

And if it has the IAT sensor in it I might look for the right connector and use it instead of the other one. But that's more work, so we'll see what happens. Anyway, if you find a source for the connector please let me know.

Last, we'll have to have a conversation about loading MAF tables a bit farther down the road.

Gary, Motorcraft WPT-1091 is the 6 cavity MAF connector. This will allow either the XL3F or the F5OF to be used, just parallel the IAT sensor leads so either can be used, or just don't use the one in the MAF.

[85lebaront2]

Keeping an eye on how Big Blue turns out in regards to EFI... Assuming I do end up with a 460 truck for a project, an EFI conversion is one possible route if the stock setup (or whatever it has) can't be made to work or is underwhelming. But I'm leaning more towards a sniper TBI and hyperspark ignition ($2000ish, but is a nice setup from the ones I've seen done already)... Don't get me wrong, I like my OBDII on the '95 Ranger, but the sniper ecosystem does have options to do a lot of the same stuff I'd be doing with OBDII (they even make 5" monitors to add to your dash!). And it's mostly bolt on and plug-and-play parts... biggest "pain" would be adding the wideband O2 (they give a clamp on solution, nah, I'd weld it).

FWIW, I have my wideband O2 sensor on Darth where the factory single O2 sensor on the OBD-I EFI 460s is. With the E4OD it is back just in front of the catalytic converter flange.