2019 Trip Planning - Ouray & The San Juans

[86 12 Brutus]

Well, I just watched both vids. And showed parts of the first one to Janey. Black Bear isn't her cup of tea. But I sent a link to my son, Bret, and told him I want to do it with him. We shall see.

Like I said, Black Bear isn't for everyone. No shame in Janey not wanting to do it. But if you want to I hope you get to with your son!

Wow, this really sounds like a great time. I did some reading myself. Now i want to put bigger tires on Brutus and go.

Brutus is 2WD with 3.08 gears? Not the hot setup for elevations between 9,000 and 13,000 feet. Normally aspirated engines lose a LOT of power up there. With the stockish 302 in my Bronco (admittedly tuned for 700 feet elevation which didn't help me) I was using 2nd gear and low range coming out of a lot of the switchbacks. In that gear I have a final drive ratio of about 41:1. Tuned for the elevation I might have been comfortable in 3rd gear low range (25:1). But I think a C6 has a 1st gear of 2.46:1. With your 3.08 gears and no low range that's a final drive of 7.5:1. The torque converter will help you, so maybe that's equivalent to about 15:1? But using gears like that would mean you'll need to keep your speed up (which can lead to damage) and be pretty deep into the throttle coming out of switchbacks. Which leads to the next issue, traction.

As I said above, the trails in that area aren't technical or difficult. But they are often steep, and they are usually pretty loose gravel. Not an issue with even a stock 4WD, but with a 2WD there will be places that you are going to spin tires a lot. You would be able to do most of many of the trails out there in 2WD, but there are probably places you won't be able to make it up a hill. The advice I gave Gary still applies, go anywhere you know you will be able to get back from. You're starting at the bottom, so as long as you never go past something you know you can get back over you can (probably) get back down OK. But if you make it to the top of a pass and start down the other side all bets are off. There might be a short section on the way down that you can't get past, so now you need to go back up the pass to get out.

I'm not saying you can't have fun with Brutus out there. Just saying that it could be pretty frustrating if you get turned back time and time again. And it could be a major pain if you do get stuck. So while I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, I will say that I wouldn't recommend those trails in a 2WD.

i wouldn't think it would make it up alot of those trails, i just think it would be kind of cool to go. probably something that will never happen anyway. Have to keep road tires on him as he's our main mode of transportation, or will be.

[Gary Lewis]

i wouldn't think it would make it up alot of those trails, i just think it would be kind of cool to go. probably something that will never happen anyway. Have to keep road tires on him as he's our main mode of transportation, or will be.

I know this is 2020 and that 2019 has come and gone. But Janey and I are headed to CO in the not too distant future with friends, and hope to rent a Jeep for a day out of Ouray. And since 2 of the 4 of us want easy roads, I'm mapping them out as best I can.

It looks to me like this route should work, but I'm asking for input:

• Colorado 550 from Ouray to Ridgeway

• Colorado 62 from Ridgeway to Last Dollar Road

• Last Dollar Road to Colorado 145

• Colorado 145 to Telluride, then back to the Sunshine Camp Road

• Sunshine Camp Road to Ophir Pass Road

• Ophir Pass Road to Colorado 550

• Colorado 550 into Silverton (yes, I know the last mile isn't 550)

• The blue and green road north out of Silverton to Corkscrew Gulch

• Corkscrew Gulch back to Co 550

I know that many times on that day we'll ask why we rented a Jeep. But there are some places on that loop that looks like it'll require a Jeep. And things I've read say the scenery will be spectacular. However, I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Nothing Special]

I know this is 2020 and that 2019 has come and gone. But Janey and I are headed to CO in the not too distant future with friends, and hope to rent a Jeep for a day out of Ouray. And since 2 of the 4 of us want easy roads, I'm mapping them out as best I can.

It looks to me like this route should work, but I'm asking for input:

• Colorado 550 from Ouray to Ridgeway

• Colorado 62 from Ridgeway to Last Dollar Road

• Last Dollar Road to Colorado 145

• Colorado 145 to Telluride, then back to the Sunshine Camp Road

• Sunshine Camp Road to Ophir Pass Road

• Ophir Pass Road to Colorado 550

• Colorado 550 into Silverton (yes, I know the last mile isn't 550)

• The blue and green road north out of Silverton to Corkscrew Gulch

• Corkscrew Gulch back to Co 550

I know that many times on that day we'll ask why we rented a Jeep. But there are some places on that loop that looks like it'll require a Jeep. And things I've read say the scenery will be spectacular. However, I'm open to suggestions.

Lesley and I just got back from a 4 day weekend on the North Shore (of Lake Superior, but in this part of the country at least, when you say "the North Shore," specifying the lake is unnecessary). So I'm a little swamped. But a quick response for now...

My first glance at your map shows a glaring error. Poughkeepsie Gulch is the road that goes from Lake Como north to the Engineer Mountain road. It's shown as yellow, but it's the hardest trail in the area. Meanwhile, the black and red section that's identified as Poughkeepsie Gulch is actually the Mineral Point trail, and probably deserves to be yellow (certainly not black and red). The "Bleepin Jeep" videos I linked a couple weeks ago talk about Poughkeepsie Gulch when he was really on Mineral Point trail, so he must have had the same map. But don't take that yellow trail expecting it to be a cake walk! (Like I've said before, I'm sure you could go on it and enjoy it, but enjoying it may very well mean turning around at some point.)

However, of the trails you plan to take, I don't know of any that are harder than the color code would imply. The caveat on that is that I've never been on Last Dollar road, Ophir Pass, or the trail from Silverton up to Corkscrew Gulch. I have no information that would say they are different than what the map shows, and if they were particularly difficult I'm sure I'd have heard that. But I just have very little information on them.

I would suggest taking the trail east out of Silverton rather than the one going north that you show. Animas Forks is a "restored ghost town" that's worth seeing. And California Gulch, going west from Animas Forks to Corkscrew Gulch, is not a hard Jeep trail by any means. It has a few tight switchbacks and it's pretty steep in spots. But it's not very "shelfy" and could easily be done in 2WD with low enough gears (but you'll put it in 4WD low to get the low enough gears). But the caveat on that suggestion is that what you show will take quite a bit of time, and make for a very full day already. Adding Animas Forks might just make it too long.

[Gary Lewis]

Lesley and I just got back from a 4 day weekend on the North Shore (of Lake Superior, but in this part of the country at least, when you say "the North Shore," specifying the lake is unnecessary). So I'm a little swamped. But a quick response for now...

My first glance at your map shows a glaring error. Poughkeepsie Gulch is the road that goes from Lake Como north to the Engineer Mountain road. It's shown as yellow, but it's the hardest trail in the area. Meanwhile, the black and red section that's identified as Poughkeepsie Gulch is actually the Mineral Point trail, and probably deserves to be yellow (certainly not black and red). The "Bleepin Jeep" videos I linked a couple weeks ago talk about Poughkeepsie Gulch when he was really on Mineral Point trail, so he must have had the same map. But don't take that yellow trail expecting it to be a cake walk! (Like I've said before, I'm sure you could go on it and enjoy it, but enjoying it may very well mean turning around at some point.)

However, of the trails you plan to take, I don't know of any that are harder than the color code would imply. The caveat on that is that I've never been on Last Dollar road, Ophir Pass, or the trail from Silverton up to Corkscrew Gulch. I have no information that would say they are different than what the map shows, and if they were particularly difficult I'm sure I'd have heard that. But I just have very little information on them.

I would suggest taking the trail east out of Silverton rather than the one going north that you show. Animas Forks is a "restored ghost town" that's worth seeing. And California Gulch, going west from Animas Forks to Corkscrew Gulch, is not a hard Jeep trail by any means. It has a few tight switchbacks and it's pretty steep in spots. But it's not very "shelfy" and could easily be done in 2WD with low enough gears (but you'll put it in 4WD low to get the low enough gears). But the caveat on that suggestion is that what you show will take quite a bit of time, and make for a very full day already. Adding Animas Forks might just make it too long.

Bob - I hope your trip was fun. And I understand being swamped, so don't worry about getting back quickly.

But your post sure opened my eyes. I'd gotten a physical map in yesterday from Amazon called Funtreks Off-Highway Map for Silverton, Ouray, Lake City, Telluride. And it agrees with what you said about the various road names, ratings, etc.

In fact, it confirms my memory as it shows the Alpine Loop to/from Lake City to be all green and blue. Years ago we did the Alpine Loop and it was easy. But the map I included above shows it as having red, orange, and yellow sections.

Anyway, I like your suggestion about going east out of Silverton. We've done that, many decades ago, and it was easy. And Animas Forks was very picturesque. So I'm liking that idea.

Now, about GPS. We had a bit of discussion re a GPS app on a phone. Still thinking about that if anyone has suggestions.

[Nothing Special]

.... In fact, it confirms my memory as it shows the Alpine Loop to/from Lake City to be all green and blue. Years ago we did the Alpine Loop and it was easy. But the map I included above shows it as having red, orange, and yellow sections. ....

Other than the big error of misplacing Poughkeepsie Gulch, I think the rest of the map is likely pretty accurate, as long as you consider the ratings to be relative to the trails in that area. None of the trails (other than Poughkeepsie Gulch) are hard, but some are harder than others. If you really want just nice scenic dirt roads, stay off the orange and red. But if you're up for a little shelfy, some tight switchbacks, and occasionally needing to be a little careful about picking a line, the orange and red trails aren't hard.

I will agree that Black Bear deserves the label of "extremely hazardous" (even though it's not a hard trail). It will kill you if you do something wrong, just like a freeway will. And just like a freeway, it's pretty easy to see what that "wrong" thing is and not do it. But also just like a freeway, it's not really a good choice for everyone.

Poughkeepsie Gulch is nowhere near as likely to kill you as Black Bear, but it's probably more likely to break your vehicle if you do something wrong. So it probably deserves the label of "extremely hazardous" too.

[Gary Lewis]

.... In fact, it confirms my memory as it shows the Alpine Loop to/from Lake City to be all green and blue. Years ago we did the Alpine Loop and it was easy. But the map I included above shows it as having red, orange, and yellow sections. ....

Other than the big error of misplacing Poughkeepsie Gulch, I think the rest of the map is likely pretty accurate, as long as you consider the ratings to be relative to the trails in that area. None of the trails (other than Poughkeepsie Gulch) are hard, but some are harder than others. If you really want just nice scenic dirt roads, stay off the orange and red. But if you're up for a little shelfy, some tight switchbacks, and occasionally needing to be a little careful about picking a line, the orange and red trails aren't hard.

I will agree that Black Bear deserves the label of "extremely hazardous" (even though it's not a hard trail). It will kill you if you do something wrong, just like a freeway will. And just like a freeway, it's pretty easy to see what that "wrong" thing is and not do it. But also just like a freeway, it's not really a good choice for everyone.

Poughkeepsie Gulch is nowhere near as likely to kill you as Black Bear, but it's probably more likely to break your vehicle if you do something wrong. So it probably deserves the label of "extremely hazardous" too.

Ok, Bob. I need your opinion. Here's a blow-up of what the one map has of Engineer Pass, with the scale being blue=1, green=2, yellow=3, orange=4, and red=5.

But here's what my paper map shows, with green, blue=2, and red=3:

I've re-re-read your Day 4 report where you said "Nothing too difficult, but it didn't take long and there were great views". So, is the red/5 rating on the first map overstating it? Or is the Blue/2 understated?

Better yet, is Engineer Pass something we can handle in a Jeep Rubicon with wives that are skittish?

[Nothing Special]

Ok, Bob. I need your opinion. Here's a blow-up of what the one map has of Engineer Pass, with the scale being blue=1, green=2, yellow=3, orange=4, and red=5.

But here's what my paper map shows, with green, blue=2, and red=3:

I've re-re-read your Day 4 report where you said "Nothing too difficult, but it didn't take long and there were great views". So, is the red/5 rating on the first map overstating it? Or is the Blue/2 understated?

Better yet, is Engineer Pass something we can handle in a Jeep Rubicon with wives that are skittish?

To directly answer your question, I'd say that both maps are likely correct, but with different perspectives. The one that says it's red is right that it's one of the hardest, scariest roads in the area (more on that below). But the one that says it's blue and green isn't wrong either. The blue sections are slightly difficult and scarier than the green sections, which are pretty close to being gravel roads. If you recall, when we were out there in 2018 we drove some of the east side of Cinnamon Pass and found it so easy that it was kind of boring. But we also met some people in a side-by-side ATV that had been on it and were freaked out by it. So I think the map that shows red is catering to people like those in the ATV and trying not to lull them into a false sense of security, while the other is catering more to people who have done some trail riding.

To be more specific, the maps you show there more show the eastern side of Engineer Pass. I've never been on the eastern side. I've always gone up the west side and either turned off before I got to the pass, or turned around at the pass. So I can't speak very well to the eastern side. But unless you are doing the Alpine Loop through Lake City you won't be on that road anyway. If you do choose to do the Alpine Loop, my impression (not based on much experience so take it for what little it's worth) is that the eastern sides of Engineer and Cinnamon Passes are easier than the western sides, and while I'm sure the scenery is great, I don't think it's as varied as on the western side. So I'd suggest that you do something like the loop you laid out above if you only have one day. You could add the Alpine Loop if you had a second day.

As far as the western side, it kind of has two sections with different personalities. The lower part is what I called Engineer Mountain Road in my report before. The upper section I called Engineer Pass.

The picture below is of the top part of Corkscrew Gulch, but it's not entirely unlike the upper section of the west side of Engineer Pass. Yes it's a shelfy road, with some tight switchbacks. And in many places it's too narrow for two vehicles, so you need to find places to let others by. But the mountainside isn't as steep as it is in a lot of places, so it isn't quite as spooky as some of the other shelf roads. (Engineer Pass is probably on steeper hills than Corkscrew Gulch, at least on average, but this still gives some idea.) Still, the hills are steep enough that if you were to drive off you'd end up going a long way down before you'd stop. So it may or may not be fun for novices.

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n13070/DSC_7536_Corkscrew.jpg

If I recall correctly I suggested not doing Engineer Mountain Road on day 1. Not that it's all that difficult or scary, but other than Black Bear and Poughkeepsie (which are in different categories) it's the most difficult, scariest trail in the area.

But again, it isn't that difficult or scary.

If it sounds like I'm waffling, it's because I can't say what skittish wives will think of it.

Here are the pictures I posted back in 2018 with some current commentary:

The first two show some of the scariest sections of Engineer Mountain Road. These are pretty shelfy, and definitely too narrow for two vehicles in a lot of places. But there are a lot of places where you can pass too. For experienced drivers / passengers this is just Colorado scenery. But for novices it can be pretty spooky.

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n13070/DSC_7501_Eng_Mt_Rd.jpg

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n13070/DSC_7502_Eng_Mt_Rd.jpg

The last picture shows one of the most difficult sections of Engineer Mountain Road. If I recall correctly this was an optional line, with a significantly easier path available. But I'd say if you think a difficulty level like this might keep it from being fun, then perhaps this road isn't the right choice right now. That said, a stock Rubicon could do this easily, with the only real risk being clunking something on a rock. So take it slow and try to either go around the tallest rocks or hit them with your tires (that will lift the whole vehicle rather than putting the tires in the low spots so the hard parts stay closer to the rocks). Also try to avoid being very sideways on a hill. It's like waves in a boat, it's much more stable taking them head-on rather that from the side.

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n13070/DSC_7504_Eng_Mt_Rd.jpg

In the end, not to try to scare you off of Engineer Pass, but the loop you laid out in purple above will probably be easier and less scary than Engineer Pass and Engineer Mountain Road while not giving up anything in the way of scenery. And adding the Animas Forks / California Gulch section really wouldn't make it any harder or scarier (just longer). So I'd suggest staying closer to your original plan if you've only got one day, and maybe bringing Engineer Pass into the mix if you have more time and no one felt too uncomfortable with anything on day 1.

[Gary Lewis]

To directly answer your question, I'd say that both maps are likely correct, but with different perspectives. The one that says it's red is right that it's one of the hardest, scariest roads in the area (more on that below). But the one that says it's blue and green isn't wrong either. The blue sections are slightly difficult and scarier than the green sections, which are pretty close to being gravel roads. If you recall, when we were out there in 2018 we drove some of the east side of Cinnamon Pass and found it so easy that it was kind of boring. But we also met some people in a side-by-side ATV that had been on it and were freaked out by it. So I think the map that shows red is catering to people like those in the ATV and trying not to lull them into a false sense of security, while the other is catering more to people who have done some trail riding.

To be more specific, the maps you show there more show the eastern side of Engineer Pass. I've never been on the eastern side. I've always gone up the west side and either turned off before I got to the pass, or turned around at the pass. So I can't speak very well to the eastern side. But unless you are doing the Alpine Loop through Lake City you won't be on that road anyway. If you do choose to do the Alpine Loop, my impression (not based on much experience so take it for what little it's worth) is that the eastern sides of Engineer and Cinnamon Passes are easier than the western sides, and while I'm sure the scenery is great, I don't think it's as varied as on the western side. So I'd suggest that you do something like the loop you laid out above if you only have one day. You could add the Alpine Loop if you had a second day.

As far as the western side, it kind of has two sections with different personalities. The lower part is what I called Engineer Mountain Road in my report before. The upper section I called Engineer Pass.

The picture below is of the top part of Corkscrew Gulch, but it's not entirely unlike the upper section of the west side of Engineer Pass. Yes it's a shelfy road, with some tight switchbacks. And in many places it's too narrow for two vehicles, so you need to find places to let others by. But the mountainside isn't as steep as it is in a lot of places, so it isn't quite as spooky as some of the other shelf roads. (Engineer Pass is probably on steeper hills than Corkscrew Gulch, at least on average, but this still gives some idea.) Still, the hills are steep enough that if you were to drive off you'd end up going a long way down before you'd stop. So it may or may not be fun for novices.

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n13070/DSC_7536_Corkscrew.jpg

 

If I recall correctly I suggested not doing Engineer Mountain Road on day 1. Not that it's all that difficult or scary, but other than Black Bear and Poughkeepsie (which are in different categories) it's the most difficult, scariest trail in the area.

But again, it isn't that difficult or scary.

If it sounds like I'm waffling, it's because I can't say what skittish wives will think of it.

Here are the pictures I posted back in 2018 with some current commentary:

The first two show some of the scariest sections of Engineer Mountain Road. These are pretty shelfy, and definitely too narrow for two vehicles in a lot of places. But there are a lot of places where you can pass too. For experienced drivers / passengers this is just Colorado scenery. But for novices it can be pretty spooky.

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n13070/DSC_7501_Eng_Mt_Rd.jpg

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n13070/DSC_7502_Eng_Mt_Rd.jpg

The last picture shows one of the most difficult sections of Engineer Mountain Road. If I recall correctly this was an optional line, with a significantly easier path available. But I'd say if you think a difficulty level like this might keep it from being fun, then perhaps this road isn't the right choice right now. That said, a stock Rubicon could do this easily, with the only real risk being clunking something on a rock. So take it slow and try to either go around the tallest rocks or hit them with your tires (that will lift the whole vehicle rather than putting the tires in the low spots so the hard parts stay closer to the rocks). Also try to avoid being very sideways on a hill. It's like waves in a boat, it's much more stable taking them head-on rather that from the side.

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/file/n13070/DSC_7504_Eng_Mt_Rd.jpg

In the end, not to try to scare you off of Engineer Pass, but the loop you laid out in purple above will probably be easier and less scary than Engineer Pass and Engineer Mountain Road while not giving up anything in the way of scenery. And adding the Animas Forks / California Gulch section really wouldn't make it any harder or scarier (just longer). So I'd suggest staying closer to your original plan if you've only got one day, and maybe bringing Engineer Pass into the mix if you have more time and no one felt too uncomfortable with anything on day 1.

THANK YOU! That I can understand!

Given the above, I think I'm back to the purple route as you suggested. There's only one place on that route that might be a small issue, and that's a short shelf on the Ophir Pass road. In fact, today I was looking over my notes from our 1993 trip as well as the book I used then - Jeep Trails To Colorado Ghost Towns. The notes show that we probably took Ophir Pass then, and I showed them to Janey who said "Yes! That's where Holly and I got out and walked!"

What I didn't show her, but sent to our son, is the snippet below from the book. And our son agrees, that was the place. So, the ladies may get out and walk again. But it isn't a very long stretch at all.

[Nothing Special]

THANK YOU! That I can understand!

Given the above, I think I'm back to the purple route as you suggested. There's only one place on that route that might be a small issue, and that's a short shelf on the Ophir Pass road. In fact, today I was looking over my notes from our 1993 trip as well as the book I used then - Jeep Trails To Colorado Ghost Towns. The notes show that we probably took Ophir Pass then, and I showed them to Janey who said "Yes! That's where Holly and I got out and walked!"

What I didn't show her, but sent to our son, is the snippet below from the book. And our son agrees, that was the place. So, the ladies may get out and walk again. But it isn't a very long stretch at all.

(edit: I thought I'd put a link to the recent discussion of Black Bear Road so it doesn't get separated from this thread.)

Today I ran across

. It seems to be a group without a lot of hardcore experience in maybe a stock Wrangler Rubicon 4 door, a Wrangler 2 door with no lockers, and a Toyota FourRunner. I skipped over sections of the video, but he seems to show pretty much the entire trail other than the bypass and the easy section up by Lake Como.

They go up Poughkeepsie, from Engineer Mountain Road to Hurricane Pass. If you remember, I suggested you go down it. I actually prefer going up difficult obstacles (more challenge / fun to get over, but easier to stop before you get in trouble). But going down Poughkeepsie is the best way to guarantee you'll be able to make it to the part that's most worth seeing. (While the bypass trail isn't very hard, there is one section that has some VERY tight turns on a VERY narrow section of trail, with rocks (or at least pretty solid dirt mounds) on both sides. I'm not sure Big Blue would fit through there without hitting the sheetmetal.)

At 7:40 they get to where the bypass turns off the main trail. As they note, it's well marked with warning signs.

At 10:20 they get to the narrow, rough, steep approach to the staging area. This is a section that I know Big Blue can do, but I don't know if you'll want to do it. So I'd suggest you walk it before you commit to it.

At 11:10 they get to the staging area at the bottom of The Wall. If you pause at 11:10, the winding trail in the center of the shot is likely the easiest route. But it was closed off when we were there in 2018. We did take it in 2000. It's still steep and it's pretty loose dirt. So not a lot of risk of damage, but it wouldn't seem too unusual to end up digging holes rather than going up (I made it in 2000 with the CJ5 with a locker in the rear and open front)/

At about 11:20 he points out the three main routes up The Wall: left , middle and right. Left is an exciting challenge for a shorter wheelbase vehicle (I did it in the Jeep in 2000 and think I picked a front tire up pretty high, I couldn't get enough traction to go up it in the Bronco in 2018). Middle is a hard-core-only option. It's not THAT difficult or dangerous. But it's VERY easy to open up the side of your truck on the rock. I have no intention of ever taking that route.

Then up to about 29:00 they work to get all three vehicle up the right side.

I'll split the right side into three general lines. There's a hole / crack in the middle. Everyone (including me when I was out there in 2018) seems to think that straddling that hole is the easiest line up the right side. It's not. It's the hardest. The 4 door fights this line for quite a while, eventually winching. I didn't make it up that line in 2018, and I saw a lot of others fail as well. I only saw a couple of VERY capable vehicles make it.

The easiest line is to stay to the right of that hole. That's the line the Toyota takes. But in spite of being the easiest, it does have a sharp breakover at the top. I had no trouble with this on my CJ5 in 2000, but in 2018 my Broncos radius arm mounts hit solidly and there was no way I could make it over. Big Blue has a long wheelbase hindering, but quite a bit of clearance. I don't know if he'd make it over the top or not. (Spoiler alert, the Toyota high-centers and gets winched over the top.)

I can't tell for sure what line the 2 door takes. The camera is too low to show it well. It could be the same straddling-the-hole line that the 4 door tried, or it could be the line entirely to the left of the hole. That line is a lot harder than the right line, but I did see multiple vehicles make it up, including my Bronco. There's no sharp breakover on the left line, but there is a point where you're staring at the sky which is pretty freaky. It also would be relatively easy to slide into the hole to the right, which could get... interesting. I'm pretty sure Big Blue could make it up this, and there's a winch point above if needed. But I'm not at all sure that you would want to try it. Although if you just winched it would be a piece of cake, so you could make one sort of half-hearted attempt and decide if you wanted to keep trying or winch.

Still, it's a cool area and worth going to it just to see it, and probably to be able to watch others playing on it. And maybe you will see something worth trying.

One other suggestion specific to The Wall. The 4 door Jeep goes to a lot of work to get lined up at the bottom after going around a short steep pitch that's about 1 truck-length below The Wall. I don't know why he did that. Most people just drive up the short pitch and have no trouble lining up.

And I also want to speak to winch usage. They do a couple of things that I would never do with a winch rope. One is to run a winch rope as a safety strap. He keeps trying to make it up The Wall with the winch rope hooked up but slack. If he fell back and pulled the rope taut it would hit the rope and the winch HARD. The owners manual that came with my Warn winch says in no uncertain terms to only use a winch for static pulls, not dynamic. That can put a winch and rope over their rating in a hurry. If you need to run a safety strap, use a snatch strap connected directly to another vehicle.

The other thing is that at times a person is holding the slack winch rope while the vehicle is moving. Again, I wouldn't be moving the vehicle with a slack rope to begin with. But if that rope were to pull tight while a person is that close t it, it could be devastating, even if nothing broke.

And yes, they are using synthetic rope which is a lot safer than wire rope. But contrary to internet lore, when a synthetic rope breaks it does NOT "just drop to the ground." It slingshots, just like a wire rope. The safety comes from the fact that it's much less mass slingshotting, so if it hits something it won't go as far through before it stops. That could well be the difference between an injury that wrecks your day and one that wrecks the remainder of your survivors lives, so it's significant. But don't take winch safety lightly with a synthetic rope either.

[Nothing Special]

Bob - I hope your trip was fun. And I understand being swamped, so don't worry about getting back quickly....

Not to clutter your thread too much, but I did post some pictures from that trip to the North Shore of Lake Superior in a thread about my motorhome on FTE if you're interested.