2019 Trip Planning - Ouray & The San Juans

[Nothing Special]

Back to my thoughts on the trails...

Poughkeepsie Gulch: This is unquestionably the hardest trail in the area. It's not the scariest. In fact, it mostly runs up the bottom of a valley, so there are very few shelf sections, and the ones it does have aren't that high up. And it's not the tightest. I think the only switchbacks that might give a fullsize truck any issues are on the bypass. But it's steep, with big rocks in some places and loose rocks in others. I'm pretty sure I could've driven every other trail in the Ouray area in 2WD (with a rear locker and the low range gearing). But Poughkeepsie requires at least 4WD.

As the hardest trail in the area, I definitely wouldn't suggest you start with it. But I do think the three of you (you, Janey and Big Blue) might be able to enjoy it a little later in a first trip. If Engineer Mountain Road doesn't stress anyone out too much, Poughkeepsie might well be worth a look.

I would suggest going down Poughkeepsie the first time. I think it's easier to get to the fun spots that way, and if/when you get to where you feel you need to turn around, you'll probably have been able to see more of the trail.

Lake Como is near the top (a good place for a picnic, not that there's any shortage of those). Soon after that you get to the fork for the bypass. Stop and walk down the bypass trail a little. The tightest parts of that are near the top. If you feel OK about what you see in the first hundred yards or so you can probably drive it if/when you want to.

But then take the left fork down the main trail. Pretty soon you'll get to the first "playground." There are several different lines down a pretty steep hill into a bowl, then one or two lines back up out of the bowl to continue on down the trail. The first time I came here (driving my Jeep down in 2000) I was a little freaked out! None of the lines looked easy. I took what I thought looked easiest and had no trouble. And on this trip it didn't look bad to me at all (my perspective had changed, not the trail). But I have seen others (especially beginners on ATVs) freak out here as well. So if you decide this is above your capabilities / willingness, no shame in stopping at this point and going back up to the lake.

If you drive (or walk) down a little farther you'll get to the top of the Wall. It's not a very short walk given the elevation, but it's not too long either, maybe 1/4 mile each way? From there you will probably be able to watch others play (it usually seems to have at least a few people on it). And you can walk around and see what you think of doing it yourself. I'm not suggesting that you do it, you'll need to decide if it's something you'll all enjoy. But I'm sure there are lines Big Blue would make it down safely. And the left side of the right section (as you look up) wouldn't be hard to winch back up if it came to that. So again, scope it out and go as far as you feel comfortable, with no shame in turning around.

If you do get down to the Wall it might be worth a walk down the approach trail. It's narrow, steep and a little rocky for the first hundred yards or so, but it opens up after that. Again, after you see it and know what you think of it you can decide if you want to drive it or not. Once you get past that first section nothing else is even close to that difficult the rest of the way down the trail.

Alternatively (or after going down and seeing what you think) you can drive up Poughkeepsie from Engineer Mountain Road. It's steep and loose in a few places, but with 2 TrueTracs Big Blue won't have any problems. When you get to the bypass you can decide which way you want to go. The bypass will bring you past both of the "fun" sections of the main trail, and ends in a tight series of turns that you might not be able to make (not sure of that, just not guaranteeing that you will make it). And these turns aren't hanging off an edge or anything, they have banks on both sides so there's nowhere to go if you don't fit on the trail. There were a couple other "interesting" sections of the bypass. I don't recall them specifically, but I remember thinking that as a bypass trail it wasn't at all boring, but that it shouldn't be too hard to do in a fullsize truck (other than maybe the top part).

Or you can go up the main trail, which, as noted above, gets steep, tight and rocky before it gets to the staging area for the Wall. If you go this way you'll have to decide if you want to keep going or where it might be time for you to back up. There won't be room to turn around in many places there, so it's either go up or back down a ways. Plan accordingly.

So in spite of Poughkeepsie being a hard trail, it's not at all sneaky about it. As long as you remember that you always have the option to bail out, I think you can have as much fun on it as YOU want.

Engineer Pass (west side)

Animas Cutoff

California Gulch

Hurricane Pass

Corkscrew Pass / Gulch

I'll lump all of these in together. They are all scenic trails with some shelf sections and some switchbacks. They aren't just gravel roads, but they aren't rock crawling either. I have met people out on these trails that felt like they were in over their head, but not many feel that way, and the few that do probably should be looking for a different way to spend their vacations. I have no doubt that you, Janey and Big Blue can handle these trails.

Of these, Engineer Pass is the only one that I'd bill as a "destination" trail. It's worth the short drive to go there, and it gets you to Odom Point and Yvonne Pass if you want to do those.

The rest of the trails in this group are more ways to get from here to there. Not that they're bad trails in their own right, but the main reason to take a particular one is if you're at one end of it and want to get to the other end. If you spend several days in the area you'll probably end up doing all of them at least once, which is a good thing. But if you never make it over one of them I don't think you need to be too concerned.

Mineral Point

Odom Point

Yvonne Pass

These trails are all easier and less scary on average than the ones above (although Yvonne Pass gets worse the farther you go, so you just need to decide how far you want to go. We did not make it to the end).

Mineral Point is an interesting diversion from the top section of Engineer Mountain Road that goes by an old mine, well worth doing at least once (although it does miss the restroom, but you can backtrack to that if needed).

Odom Point is a great lookout and place for lunch, and only takes a couple minutes of driving if you're on Engineer Pass.

Yvonne Pass wasn't bad to do, and if you have the time I'd probably suggest it. But if not, it's not a big loss.

Engineer Pass (east side)

Cinnamon Pass

I'll lump these together as well. I've never driven the east side of Engineer Pass, or past the Sherman road on Cinnamon Pass, so take this for what it's worth. I don't think Lesley and I will ever take these trails (again, in the case of Cinnamon). But that doesn't mean you and Janey shouldn't. They aren't bad trails, they just aren't for us. They're scenic, but all of the others are too. From what I can tell they aren't particularly difficult or scary (likely pretty similar to the first group of trails in this post). They are pretty long, and (probably) like most of the trails here, you can't go very fast so they take quite a bit of time. And that's the kicker for Lesley and me - too much time required with not enough reason to be on those trails rather than others.

Still, they are part of the Alpine Loop, which is a pretty major tourist attraction there, so apparently a lot of people see them as well worth it. And there are some different sights to see (Lake City, Lake San Cristobal, and a few other cabins, mines or ghost towns that I've known about but forget the details now). So I wouldn't rule them out either.

Unfortunately there isn't a good highway option to get from Ouray to Lake City. According to Google Maps it's 136 miles / 2 hours 40 minutes. So driving one of the trails and taking the highway back might not save you any time over just doing both of these trails. And if you do choose to do this loop it'll probably take you most of a day.

I'm certainly not trying to talk you out of these trails, but clearly I'm not the best salesman for them! In the end you'll need to decide if you have the time and interest to do these trails. And obviously you can go down one for a ways and come back if you don't want to commit fully to them.

The "To Silverton" trails

The "ghost town" of Animas Forks is well worth stopping at, at least once. We stopped there quite a while in 2000, but didn't take the time this trip. Rather than being an abandoned town it's more a historic site. I think some of the buildings were moved here from different locations, and they are being actively maintained. In fact, this building (pictured with our kids in 2000) now has glass in all of the windows, and from a distance at least looks like you might even be able to move in.

As I recall from 2000, the farthest east "To Silverton" trail I show is a pretty good gravel road. And there are frequently cars at Animas Forks, so there must be a pretty smooth road. So if you want to see Silverton that might be an option. And I believe there are some other roads/trails/attractions in the Silverton area, I'm just not familiar with them. Or taking that trail to Silverton and then highway 550 back to Ouray might even be quicker than any of the other options (and certainly smoother). So that "trail" might be worth taking for those reasons.

Looking at the "To Silverton" trail from the end of the Hurricane Pass trail, it looks like it's probably similar to the first group of trails in this post (or maybe a little smoother). It does look like it might stay in the valley, so it might not be shelfy or have switchbacks, but I'm just guessing there. If I continue to guess I'd say that it's probably a reasonable way to go to Silverton if you're at that end of the trail. Or if you take the gravel road (above) to Silverton and have time you might want to take this trail and Corkscrew Gulch to get back to Ouray rather than taking the highway. But I'm thinking there probably isn't a lot of reason to take it if you're staying in Ouray (but again, I'm just guessing)

[Gary Lewis]

Engineer Pass (west side)

Animas Cutoff

California Gulch

Hurricane Pass

Corkscrew Pass / Gulch

I'll lump all of these in together. They are all scenic trails with some shelf sections and some switchbacks. They aren't just gravel roads, but they aren't rock crawling either. I have met people out on these trails that felt like they were in over their head, but not many feel that way, and the few that do probably should be looking for a different way to spend their vacations. I have no doubt that you, Janey and Big Blue can handle these trails.

Of these, Engineer Pass is the only one that I'd bill as a "destination" trail. It's worth the short drive to go there, and it gets you to Odom Point and Yvonne Pass if you want to do those.

The rest of the trails in this group are more ways to get from here to there. Not that they're bad trails in their own right, but the main reason to take a particular one is if you're at one end of it and want to get to the other end. If you spend several days in the area you'll probably end up doing all of them at least once, which is a good thing. But if you never make it over one of them I don't think you need to be too concerned.

Mineral Point

Odom Point

Yvonne Pass

These trails are all easier and less scary on average than the ones above (although Yvonne Pass gets worse the farther you go, so you just need to decide how far you want to go. We did not make it to the end).

Mineral Point is an interesting diversion from the top section of Engineer Mountain Road that goes by an old mine, well worth doing at least once (although it does miss the restroom, but you can backtrack to that if needed).

Odom Point is a great lookout and place for lunch, and only takes a couple minutes of driving if you're on Engineer Pass.

Yvonne Pass wasn't bad to do, and if you have the time I'd probably suggest it. But if not, it's not a big loss.

Engineer Pass (east side)

Cinnamon Pass

I'll lump these together as well. I've never driven the east side of Engineer Pass, or past the Sherman road on Cinnamon Pass, so take this for what it's worth. I don't think Lesley and I will ever take these trails (again, in the case of Cinnamon). But that doesn't mean you and Janey shouldn't. They aren't bad trails, they just aren't for us. They're scenic, but all of the others are too. From what I can tell they aren't particularly difficult or scary (likely pretty similar to the first group of trails in this post). They are pretty long, and (probably) like most of the trails here, you can't go very fast so they take quite a bit of time. And that's the kicker for Lesley and me - too much time required with not enough reason to be on those trails rather than others.

Still, they are part of the Alpine Loop, which is a pretty major tourist attraction there, so apparently a lot of people see them as well worth it. And there are some different sights to see (Lake City, Lake San Cristobal, and a few other cabins, mines or ghost towns that I've known about but forget the details now). So I wouldn't rule them out either.

Unfortunately there isn't a good highway option to get from Ouray to Lake City. According to Google Maps it's 136 miles / 2 hours 40 minutes. So driving one of the trails and taking the highway back might not save you any time over just doing both of these trails. And if you do choose to do this loop it'll probably take you most of a day.

I'm certainly not trying to talk you out of these trails, but clearly I'm not the best salesman for them! In the end you'll need to decide if you have the time and interest to do these trails. And obviously you can go down one for a ways and come back if you don't want to commit fully to them.

The "To Silverton" trails

The "ghost town" of Animas Forks is well worth stopping at, at least once. We stopped there quite a while in 2000, but didn't take the time this trip. Rather than being an abandoned town it's more a historic site. I think some of the buildings were moved here from different locations, and they are being actively maintained. In fact, this building (pictured with our kids in 2000) now has glass in all of the windows, and from a distance at least looks like you might even be able to move in.

As I recall from 2000, the farthest east "To Silverton" trail I show is a pretty good gravel road. And there are frequently cars at Animas Forks, so there must be a pretty smooth road. So if you want to see Silverton that might be an option. And I believe there are some other roads/trails/attractions in the Silverton area, I'm just not familiar with them. Or taking that trail to Silverton and then highway 550 back to Ouray might even be quicker than any of the other options (and certainly smoother). So that "trail" might be worth taking for those reasons.

Looking at the "To Silverton" trail from the end of the Hurricane Pass trail, it looks like it's probably similar to the first group of trails in this post (or maybe a little smoother). It does look like it might stay in the valley, so it might not be shelfy or have switchbacks, but I'm just guessing there. If I continue to guess I'd say that it's probably a reasonable way to go to Silverton if you're at that end of the trail. Or if you take the gravel road (above) to Silverton and have time you might want to take this trail and Corkscrew Gulch to get back to Ouray rather than taking the highway. But I'm thinking there probably isn't a lot of reason to take it if you're staying in Ouray (but again, I'm just guessing)

Thanks. I was off on a 49th year honeymoon yesterday and today, so just got to this.

But your write-ups are so well done they will help immensely planning next year's trip as well as the one we are already talking about with the kids & grandkids.

Anyway, I'm going to set back when it gets quiet around here and I don't have anything else to do, like prepare for my class on Sunday or prep for the show, and put these in context. Thank You!

[Nothing Special]

Thanks. I was off on a 49th year honeymoon yesterday and today, so just got to this.

But your write-ups are so well done they will help immensely planning next year's trip as well as the one we are already talking about with the kids & grandkids.

Anyway, I'm going to set back when it gets quiet around here and I don't have anything else to do, like prepare for my class on Sunday or prep for the show, and put these in context. Thank You!

Glad you're finding it helpful!

I'm still pretty swamped at home after being on a 2 week vacation (last night I pulled the engine out of the Bronco to try to finally fix the oil pan / rear main leaks that caused me to add 3 quarts of oil on this trip ). So I'm only posting to this in breaks or at lunch when I'm at work right now. I still intend to go back and add times and distances to the rest of the trails I know.

And you have a year still to plan this trip, so I'm not thinking it's your top priority right now! But if, for some reason, you want to bounce ideas for this trip off someone (not that you would be likely to want to do that ), I'm here!

[Gary Lewis]

Glad you're finding it helpful!

I'm still pretty swamped at home after being on a 2 week vacation (last night I pulled the engine out of the Bronco to try to finally fix the oil pan / rear main leaks that caused me to add 3 quarts of oil on this trip ). So I'm only posting to this in breaks or at lunch when I'm at work right now. I still intend to go back and add times and distances to the rest of the trails I know.

And you have a year still to plan this trip, so I'm not thinking it's your top priority right now! But if, for some reason, you want to bounce ideas for this trip off someone (not that you would be likely to want to do that ), I'm here!

Trust me, I understand "busy". We took a mini-trip for our 49th wedding anniversary on Wed/Thur, and during that time there was a flurry of posting done here, the forum went down, and we had some issues come up at church. So I found myself way behind as well.

As for the engine, 3 quarts of a leak has got to make a huge mess. Big Blue is leaking far less than that from the front seal et al and it is making a serious mess, and he's not leaking at that rate at all. Gotta be fun cleaning that up.

But, you are correct that I have a year, or more, to plan the trip. So we have lots of time to kick this around. Take your time and I'll take mine as well. Plus, I have another trip coming up and I'm not ready. In addition, the show is coming up quickly. So, let's not be in a hurry.

[Nothing Special]

Trust me, I understand "busy". We took a mini-trip for our 49th wedding anniversary on Wed/Thur, and during that time there was a flurry of posting done here, the forum went down, and we had some issues come up at church. So I found myself way behind as well.

As for the engine, 3 quarts of a leak has got to make a huge mess. Big Blue is leaking far less than that from the front seal et al and it is making a serious mess, and he's not leaking at that rate at all. Gotta be fun cleaning that up.

But, you are correct that I have a year, or more, to plan the trip. So we have lots of time to kick this around. Take your time and I'll take mine as well. Plus, I have another trip coming up and I'm not ready. In addition, the show is coming up quickly. So, let's not be in a hurry.

Resurrecting an old thread, but I just found a video of a group of

. I have to confess that I haven't watched much of it, but around 16:00 it shows a Chevy Colorado crew cab making what I think is the tightest switchback. I'm still not pushing anyone to do Black Bear unless they (and their passengers!) want to, just giving some more data to anone who might be considering it.

Also giving more data to anyone considering it, watch the weather! Here's

of a pretty well-known YouTuber (who's a VERY capable driver) getting trapped by a landslide caused by a heavy rail / hail storm that came up after they were past the first switchback. This was day three on a trip he was chronicling (check out his other videos if you want to see them) and it rained on them every day, so it was the pattern they were in. But it shows how dangerous weather can be in the mountains.

[Gary Lewis]

Resurrecting an old thread, but I just found a video of a group of

. I have to confess that I haven't watched much of it, but around 16:00 it shows a Chevy Colorado crew cab making what I think is the tightest switchback. I'm still not pushing anyone to do Black Bear unless they (and their passengers!) want to, just giving some more data to anone who might be considering it.

Also giving more data to anyone considering it, watch the weather! Here's

of a pretty well-known YouTuber (who's a VERY capable driver) getting trapped by a landslide caused by a heavy rail / hail storm that came up after they were past the first switchback. This was day three on a trip he was chronicling (check out his other videos if you want to see them) and it rained on them every day, so it was the pattern they were in. But it shows how dangerous weather can be in the mountains.

What a timely post!!!! We just two days ago agreed to go to "the west" in October with the friends that we were to go to the UK with in Sept/Oct - which has been canceled for obvious reasons. Then we discovered that New Mexico is pretty much closed so we are now looking at Colorado.

I've created a draft list of things to do, and in the "Southwest/Durango" section I've included "Jeeping". So, if we were to rent a Jeep in Silverton or Ouray, where would you suggest we go?

And it really needs to be fairly easy. Nothing technical or difficult at all. Just scenic.

But, I will also watch those videos. Thanks!

[Nothing Special]

What a timely post!!!! We just two days ago agreed to go to "the west" in October with the friends that we were to go to the UK with in Sept/Oct - which has been canceled for obvious reasons. Then we discovered that New Mexico is pretty much closed so we are now looking at Colorado.

I've created a draft list of things to do, and in the "Southwest/Durango" section I've included "Jeeping". So, if we were to rent a Jeep in Silverton or Ouray, where would you suggest we go?

And it really needs to be fairly easy. Nothing technical or difficult at all. Just scenic.

But, I will also watch those videos. Thanks!

I don't know what the weather is like in southwest Colorado in October. Generally I feel like Colorado in September is getting a little iffy, and I wouldn't plan to go there for a summer or fall type trip even then much less October. But I'm more familiar with farther north. But I would suggest you look into the weather.

As to where to go around Ouray / Silverton that's not technical or difficult, that's pretty much everything. Black Bear is scary and the switchbacks are tight, especially for a full-size. So don't do it unless you want to. But it's not technical or difficult. OK, Poughkeepsie Gulch IS technical and difficult. But as I described back when this thread was active, go down it from the top and turn around when you feel you need to and you can do most of it as well.

[Gary Lewis]

Resurrecting an old thread, but I just found a video of a group of

. I have to confess that I haven't watched much of it, but around 16:00 it shows a Chevy Colorado crew cab making what I think is the tightest switchback. I'm still not pushing anyone to do Black Bear unless they (and their passengers!) want to, just giving some more data to anone who might be considering it.

Also giving more data to anyone considering it, watch the weather! Here's

of a pretty well-known YouTuber (who's a VERY capable driver) getting trapped by a landslide caused by a heavy rail / hail storm that came up after they were past the first switchback. This was day three on a trip he was chronicling (check out his other videos if you want to see them) and it rained on them every day, so it was the pattern they were in. But it shows how dangerous weather can be in the mountains.

Well, I just watched both vids. And showed parts of the first one to Janey. Black Bear isn't her cup of tea. But I sent a link to my son, Bret, and told him I want to do it with him. We shall see.

[86 12 Brutus]

For the trails around Ouray I'm wondering if there is some kind of rating. And not just one number, but maybe a series of numbers. One thought is something like:

• Shelving: How narrow the "shelves" are coupled with how many there are, coupled with how far the drop would be, to give a sense of how much angst there would be. In other words, one shelf with a two-foot drop is one thing, but shelf after shelf that is so narrow that placement has to be perfect, with a 2000' drop on each one is another thing altogether.

• Technicality: This might be a combo of steepness and smoothness of the trail, making it difficult for a novice driver.

• Turns: This could be a factor of the number of turns plus the tightness of the turns plus the drop off if you go wrong. Oh, and might this be different for different vehicles?

• Overall rating, blending the above. But, again, does this vary by vehicle? And driver?

Hmmm. I'm making this toooooo complicated!

You are probably getting a little too ANALytical here (I hope I know you well enough to make that joke

Seriously though, I haven't seen any ratings that break it down that far. But the things to remember are:

1) Every trail in the Ouray are has shelf sections, steep hills, and switchbacks. If someone has no tolerance for those things they should stay out of the mountains.

2) They rent brand-new Jeep Wranglers to people with zero fourwheeling experience to drive on these trails (except Black Bear and Poughkeepsie, the rental places will tell you you can't take their vehicles on those two trails).

And I will try to give you some better ideas about the different trails, both in my trip report, and here, once I finish the trip report.

And now I think I know why I was thinking of ratings for the trails. I'm hoping for additional trips!

....

Fourwheeling trips and trips of any kind to Colorado are like Lays potato chips: no one can take just one!

Wow, this really sounds like a great time. I did some reading myself. Now i want to put bigger tires on Brutus and go.

[Nothing Special]

Well, I just watched both vids. And showed parts of the first one to Janey. Black Bear isn't her cup of tea. But I sent a link to my son, Bret, and told him I want to do it with him. We shall see.

Like I said, Black Bear isn't for everyone. No shame in Janey not wanting to do it. But if you want to I hope you get to with your son!

Wow, this really sounds like a great time. I did some reading myself. Now i want to put bigger tires on Brutus and go.

Brutus is 2WD with 3.08 gears? Not the hot setup for elevations between 9,000 and 13,000 feet. Normally aspirated engines lose a LOT of power up there. With the stockish 302 in my Bronco (admittedly tuned for 700 feet elevation which didn't help me) I was using 2nd gear and low range coming out of a lot of the switchbacks. In that gear I have a final drive ratio of about 41:1. Tuned for the elevation I might have been comfortable in 3rd gear low range (25:1). But I think a C6 has a 1st gear of 2.46:1. With your 3.08 gears and no low range that's a final drive of 7.5:1. The torque converter will help you, so maybe that's equivalent to about 15:1? But using gears like that would mean you'll need to keep your speed up (which can lead to damage) and be pretty deep into the throttle coming out of switchbacks. Which leads to the next issue, traction.

As I said above, the trails in that area aren't technical or difficult. But they are often steep, and they are usually pretty loose gravel. Not an issue with even a stock 4WD, but with a 2WD there will be places that you are going to spin tires a lot. You would be able to do most of many of the trails out there in 2WD, but there are probably places you won't be able to make it up a hill. The advice I gave Gary still applies, go anywhere you know you will be able to get back from. You're starting at the bottom, so as long as you never go past something you know you can get back over you can (probably) get back down OK. But if you make it to the top of a pass and start down the other side all bets are off. There might be a short section on the way down that you can't get past, so now you need to go back up the pass to get out.

I'm not saying you can't have fun with Brutus out there. Just saying that it could be pretty frustrating if you get turned back time and time again. And it could be a major pain if you do get stuck. So while I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, I will say that I wouldn't recommend those trails in a 2WD.