2019 Trip Planning - Ouray & The San Juans

[Gary Lewis]

For the trails around Ouray I'm wondering if there is some kind of rating. And not just one number, but maybe a series of numbers. One thought is something like:

• Shelving: How narrow the "shelves" are coupled with how many there are, coupled with how far the drop would be, to give a sense of how much angst there would be. In other words, one shelf with a two-foot drop is one thing, but shelf after shelf that is so narrow that placement has to be perfect, with a 2000' drop on each one is another thing altogether.

• Technicality: This might be a combo of steepness and smoothness of the trail, making it difficult for a novice driver.

• Turns: This could be a factor of the number of turns plus the tightness of the turns plus the drop off if you go wrong. Oh, and might this be different for different vehicles?

• Overall rating, blending the above. But, again, does this vary by vehicle? And driver?

Hmmm. I'm making this toooooo complicated!

You are probably getting a little too ANALytical here (I hope I know you well enough to make that joke

Seriously though, I haven't seen any ratings that break it down that far. But the things to remember are:

1) Every trail in the Ouray are has shelf sections, steep hills, and switchbacks. If someone has no tolerance for those things they should stay out of the mountains.

2) They rent brand-new Jeep Wranglers to people with zero fourwheeling experience to drive on these trails (except Black Bear and Poughkeepsie, the rental places will tell you you can't take their vehicles on those two trails).

And I will try to give you some better ideas about the different trails, both in my trip report, and here, once I finish the trip report.

And now I think I know why I was thinking of ratings for the trails. I'm hoping for additional trips!

....

Fourwheeling trips and trips of any kind to Colorado are like Lays potato chips: no one can take just one!

Yes, you certainly know me well enough to make that joke. And, while it is funny, it is TRUE!

I also agree with the Lay's reference. In addition, I know that people rent brand new Jeeps to people they don't know - me included. Twice I've rented from the Conoco station on the east edge of Silverton. The first time I explained that I worked for Conoco in Ponca City, which was at that time the headquarters, and they treated me like royalty. The second time they seemed to remember me from the first time and actually asked me to go up one of the harder trails, although I don't remember which one, to find out where the snow drift was.

As for the shelving and steep sections, Janey is OK to get out and walk a time or three to get past the shelving or steep part. But if the trail has lots of that, or something like the Wall, she isn't going to be appreciative. However, our son would love it. On the other hand, until the grandkids get old enough to make up their own minds, their mothers may say "no way".

So, I need to ease into this. Treat Janey nicely and get her used to it on some easy trails, get my experience level up, and then start adding a bit more "technicality" to the trail.

[Nothing Special]

For the trails around Ouray I'm wondering if there is some kind of rating. And not just one number, but maybe a series of numbers. One thought is something like:

• Shelving: How narrow the "shelves" are coupled with how many there are, coupled with how far the drop would be, to give a sense of how much angst there would be. In other words, one shelf with a two-foot drop is one thing, but shelf after shelf that is so narrow that placement has to be perfect, with a 2000' drop on each one is another thing altogether.

• Technicality: This might be a combo of steepness and smoothness of the trail, making it difficult for a novice driver.

• Turns: This could be a factor of the number of turns plus the tightness of the turns plus the drop off if you go wrong. Oh, and might this be different for different vehicles?

• Overall rating, blending the above. But, again, does this vary by vehicle? And driver?

Hmmm. I'm making this toooooo complicated!

You are probably getting a little too ANALytical here (I hope I know you well enough to make that joke

Seriously though, I haven't seen any ratings that break it down that far. But the things to remember are:

1) Every trail in the Ouray are has shelf sections, steep hills, and switchbacks. If someone has no tolerance for those things they should stay out of the mountains.

2) They rent brand-new Jeep Wranglers to people with zero fourwheeling experience to drive on these trails (except Black Bear and Poughkeepsie, the rental places will tell you you can't take their vehicles on those two trails).

And I will try to give you some better ideas about the different trails, both in my trip report, and here, once I finish the trip report.

And now I think I know why I was thinking of ratings for the trails. I'm hoping for additional trips!

....

Fourwheeling trips and trips of any kind to Colorado are like Lays potato chips: no one can take just one!

With a little time at lunch, but no access to my pictures to add to my trip report, I thought I'd give some general advice about 'wheeling in Colorado (as always, inviting discussion, not trying to give the last word).

Acclimate! Not as critical for fourwheeling as it is for more physically strenuous exercises like hiking, and not as critical for basing in Ouray (at ~7700' elevation) than in somewhere like Leadville (at 10,000'). But I like to spend a couple nights around 5,000' - 8,000' elevation when I first get to Colorado. Go up higher and do a little walking or something, but don't overdo it for the first 2 - 3 days, and come down "low" at night to recover. They do sell oxygen bottles (even the store at our campground had them), so if you think you might be susceptible to altitude sickness, or just want to be safe you could pick one or two up (I've never bought one or used one, but wanted to let you know they are available).

Hydrate! One reason I haven't worried about buying oxygen is that I think altitude sickness is no where near as common as people say. The symptoms of altitude sickness are dizziness, headaches, muscle cramps and nausea. Those are the same symptoms as dehydration which is VERY common in the mountains. The air is thin, so it has little thermal mass. Therefore it doesn't really cool you down (that's why you can often feel hot hiking on a snow field that isn't melting, the air doesn't warm the snow either). But with thin air, the sun will warm you up a lot, as will any physical exertion, so you will sweat. But with the air so dry the sweat will evaporate, cooling you very well, but not making it obvious that you are losing water. Also you are losing water with every breath you exhale. For trail riding I'd suggest carrying a minimum of 1 liter of water per person for a typical day (on the trail from 8:00 ~ 3:00). If hiking, then probably 2~3 liters / day minimum. Water doesn't prevent altitude sickness, but it might keep you from thinking you have it!

Sunscreen. You will burn a lot more easily in the thin air. Plan accordingly.

Weather. Pay attention to weather reports, but it's not at all uncommon for scattered thunderstorms to pop up in the afternoon. You don't want to be hiking on top of a mountain when that happens (probably not as bad in the steel cab of a truck). Otherwise air temp isn't that big a factor as I described above. If it's sunny you'll be hot, if cloudy it'll be kind of cool. This time of year my wife and I liked being in shorts and T-shirts, with a lightweight fleece and a rain shell along.

And then some about the driving.

Air down! Some newer vehicles have soft enough suspension that it might not be as critical, but in my '71 Bronco, even with 15 psi in the tires ride quality was the factor that limited our speed most of the time. In Big Blue (unless you're running 16.5" rims with no safety bead) I'd recommend running no more than 20 psi, and probably even 15. That'll soften the otherwise jarring impacts a lot. Keep in mind the low pressure though if you have much highway driving. Just getting back to Ouray from the trails we were on went OK at 15 psi with lower speeds. But you'll want to be able to air up if you have farther to go, or need to go faster.

Meeting other vehicles. As I've noted already in my trip report, all of the trails around Ouray (except Black Bear) are 2-way, but most are only 1 vehicle wide in a lot of spots. That can really freak novices out, but I've always seen it work out OK.

The general guideline is that the vehicle going up has the right of way. Usually common sense will show what the best alternative is, but if you're at a wide spot and see someone coming up a narrow trail you might want to wait for him.

But common sense is usually the best guideline. When you meet oncoming traffic who can make room the easiest? If you just passed a wide spot, you back up. If he did, he backs up. If there's a wide spot between you, whoever's side it's on pulls off into it and lets the other drive by. If you are one or two vehicles and you meet a group of 20, the small group gets comfortable and lets the large group get by. If the other guy is pulling a trailer you back up. Simple things like that.

Switchbacks are usually great places to let people pass. There's almost always plenty of room or one or even more vehicles to stop while another (or a line of others) drives through.

When there isn't a place that's EASILY wide enough on a shelf road is when it gets "interesting". In those cases, when I'm the one making room for the other I always pull as far off the road FORWARD as I can. If I need to back up to the wide spot, then I back past it and pull in forward. I find it easier to see what I have to work with that way.

Often in this situation it's better to pull of on the high side, whether that's the left or right side. It's usually best if the person on the high side pulls off (whether they are driving up or down) because then you are meeting driver's-side to driver's side. But you can pull off the left side of the road too when necessary. When pulling off like this you might have to drive uncomfortably far up the bank to allow enough room for the other to pass. That's why you want the one off on the high side to be the one that stops to let the other past (a stopped vehicle is MUCH less likely to slide downhill into the other).

And more common sense: fold in the mirrors! I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone fret about needing an extra inch when folding in the mirror would give them 6"! And when the best solution isn't clear, get out and talk! I only got to that point 2 or 3 times in this past trip, but it can make it a lot more clear who is in the best position to make room when you compare notes.

Faster traffic. In my Bronco I was one of the slowest vehicles out there. Big Blue will probably be slower yet (ride quality being the limiting factor as already discussed). No problem, people will understand and cut you slack. But when you get to a wide spot, pull over and wave them by. And here you don't need to make it spooky by pulling into a JUST BARELY wide enough spot. Wait for an actually wide enough spot and make it easy on everyone. But don't make them poke behind you. It's just common courtesy.

Big groups. Motorcycles and ATVs especially travel in big groups, but often trucks do too. People often wave at each other as they go by ("Ouray nice" makes even "Minnesota nice" seem stand-offish!). But in many groups the drivers will hold up the number of fingers signifying how many vehicles are following. And even when they don't do that, at least the last vehicle will hold up a fist (zero fingers) indicating he's the last one. If you're traveling in a group that's something to keep in mind, and when you meet groups it's good to know the signals as well.

Maps. I mentioned this at the start of my thread, but I think it's good to have two different types of maps in that area. One is a good, detailed topo map. I have the one for Uncompagre National Forest. But maybe more important than that is a simple map that shows and names most of the trails. It really is a good trail system, and it's not that easy to get lost (although we did meet two that were!). Having a simple map with very little detail is often the easiest way to see where this particular trail goes. A GPS (or phone app?) can also be helpful to know exactly where you are.

Reading trail signs. I said it's a good trail system, but it's not uncommon to come across unmarked intersections. However they are almost never a problem. Often when you get to an unmarked fork, both trails will go to the same place. Or one will dead-end almost immediately. Or one clearly goes the wrong way. Or one will be really faint while the right trail will clearly have carried a lot of traffic. There seemed to always be signs where there needed to be signs. So look for them and use them, but don't get too worked up when you don't see them. Just make your best guess and go.

And maybe the most important advice, don't go anywhere you can't get back out of! I sent a friend out to the Leadville area, "sixwheeling" in his crewcab longbox dually! he had a lot of fun on trails like the ones near Ouray, but when it started to seem too much for him he backed up, turned around and lived to fight another day! If you come across something that seems like it might be too much for you, go for it only if you WANT to take the challenge, otherwise definitely feel free to decide to turn around. I did that twice on Spring Creek trail (I'll 'fess up to that in my trail report when I get to day 7).

[Nothing Special]

.... So, I need to ease into this. Treat Janey nicely and get her used to it on some easy trails, get my experience level up, and then start adding a bit more "technicality" to the trail.

Happy wife, happy life!

Like I said in my trip report, in spite of driving these trails 18 years ago (with our 4 and 6 year old sons with us), my wife wasn't ready to do Black Bear or Poughkeepsie on our first day. She wanted to see how well the bigger Bronco handled the switchbacks, and just get her feet back under her. And (spoiler alert) on day 5 she wanted to go back to Poughkeepsie but not do the Wall. She had fun (filming me) the first time, but wanted to leave it at that. So I agreed and didn't try the Wall on day 5. This is supposed to be fun, and that means for everyone.

Which reminds me of an earlier post regarding the couple in the YouTube video of Black Bear:

I finally remembered to watch the Black Bear video when I was in a place of good internet connection.... While the woman in the video may have been overreacting to things it is quite sad and I think her husband was mean. She was genuinely terrified and he did nothing to educate her about navigating trails or calm her fears. Good way to get her to never go again. And sometimes it is just too much for someone, and it’s better to stick to things you can enjoy together....

That guy does have a number of fourwheeling videos, most of which have his wife (over)reacting in a similar way. My interpretation is that overall she does enjoy it, at least enough to keep doing it. So I won't condemn a guy I don't know. But I certainly agree that forcing a passenger to deal with something they really don't want to deal with is not a good way to promote the sport of fourwheeling, let alone maintain a relationship.

 

[Gary Lewis]

.... So, I need to ease into this. Treat Janey nicely and get her used to it on some easy trails, get my experience level up, and then start adding a bit more "technicality" to the trail.

Happy wife, happy life!

Like I said in my trip report, in spite of driving these trails 18 years ago (with our 4 and 6 year old sons with us), my wife wasn't ready to do Black Bear or Poughkeepsie on our first day. She wanted to see how well the bigger Bronco handled the switchbacks, and just get her feet back under her. And (spoiler alert) on day 5 she wanted to go back to Poughkeepsie but not do the Wall. She had fun (filming me) the first time, but wanted to leave it at that. So I agreed and didn't try the Wall on day 5. This is supposed to be fun, and that means for everyone.

Which reminds me of an earlier post regarding the couple in the YouTube video of Black Bear:

I finally remembered to watch the Black Bear video when I was in a place of good internet connection.... While the woman in the video may have been overreacting to things it is quite sad and I think her husband was mean. She was genuinely terrified and he did nothing to educate her about navigating trails or calm her fears. Good way to get her to never go again. And sometimes it is just too much for someone, and it’s better to stick to things you can enjoy together....

That guy does have a number of fourwheeling videos, most of which have his wife (over)reacting in a similar way. My interpretation is that overall she does enjoy it, at least enough to keep doing it. So I won't condemn a guy I don't know. But I certainly agree that forcing a passenger to deal with something they really don't want to deal with is not a good way to promote the sport of fourwheeling, let alone maintain a relationship.

Your "advice" post is excellent. Thank you very much. And, in it you've raised an interesting point about airing down and back up. I hadn't thought about the need to air back up easily just to go a ways on a highway and then maybe air back down. That seems to make a high-volume compressor more important than I'd thought. (Or, am I just trying to justify a York/Tecumseh compressor?)

And, your comment that "This is supposed to be fun, and that means for everyone" is spot-on. And I have to keep remembering that if Janey isn't having fun she won't want to go with me, regardless of how much fun I'm having. And, having her by my side makes everything more fun, so I need to make it fun for her.

As for the videos, I think the wife may be hamming it up for the camera.

[Nothing Special]

Your "advice" post is excellent. Thank you very much. And, in it you've raised an interesting point about airing down and back up. I hadn't thought about the need to air back up easily just to go a ways on a highway and then maybe air back down. That seems to make a high-volume compressor more important than I'd thought. (Or, am I just trying to justify a York/Tecumseh compressor?)

And, your comment that "This is supposed to be fun, and that means for everyone" is spot-on. And I have to keep remembering that if Janey isn't having fun she won't want to go with me, regardless of how much fun I'm having. And, having her by my side makes everything more fun, so I need to make it fun for her.

As for the videos, I think the wife may be hamming it up for the camera.

You're very welcome!

For airing up in the Bronco I have a sort of mid-range 12V compressor (I forget the brand / model). It brings four 33-10.50x15 tires from 15 - 25 psi (high enough for short highway drives) in about 10 minutes. That's good enough for me, but faster would sure be nice!

And yes, keeping it fun for Lesley (my wife) is a priority for me as well. She made it clear before we were married that her idea of marriage didn't include regular separate vacations. So unless I want all of my vacations to be Disney cruises, I need to keep fourwheeling fun for her (not that I mind Disney cruises!).

[Nothing Special]

You're very welcome!

For airing up in the Bronco I have a sort of mid-range 12V compressor (I forget the brand / model). It brings four 33-10.50x15 tires from 15 - 25 psi (high enough for short highway drives) in about 10 minutes. That's good enough for me, but faster would sure be nice!

And yes, keeping it fun for Lesley (my wife) is a priority for me as well. She made it clear before we were married that her idea of marriage didn't include regular separate vacations. So unless I want all of my vacations to be Disney cruises, I need to keep fourwheeling fun for her (not that I mind Disney cruises!).

OK, I'll start to give some comments about specific trails with you, Janey and Big Blue in mind. I'll use the sketched maps I had in my trip report thread (reposted here). I'll start in the northwest and work my way to the southeast. I won't hit all of the trails in this first post, but I'll get back to it. After that we can discuss some possible day routes that will be fun for everyone.

Imogene Pass: As I mentioned in my trip report, this is sort of a beginner's "Black Bear". It's shelfy enough to add some excitement, but never for too long, or too narrow or steep. There certainly weren't any switchbacks I needed to back up on, so I don't think Big Blue will have any significant issues there. Overall it doesn't need to be very difficult, but there are some "playgrounds" where you can take some more difficult lines to learn and have fun.

The trail runs right from the town of Telluride to right in Ouray (it may be run either direction). It took us about 3 hours to drive the 16.5 miles. Most people run it to get back to Ouray after running Black Bear, but you can run it on it's own too. You then can go back on the highway (~50 miles in ~1 hour). Or just turn around at some point and go back on the same trail (but Telluride is a nice town to see too).

I wouldn't suggest you do it in the first day or two. But I'm quite sure that, as long as things are overall going well, that you and Janey will enjoy it.

I drove this trail on day 2 in our trip if you want to look at pictures and what I said about it in my trip report thread

Black Bear: OK, let's get this out of the way quick. I don't really recommend you take this trail, especially on the first trip. While it would be possible to do the switchbacks in a fullsize longbox truck, several of them will take a few backups, and each time you'll be hanging the front bumper off a cliff. Doable? Yes. But probably not fun, especially for a new passenger. And the tight switchbacks connect narrow shelf roads. They are plenty wide enough for Big Blue, but they won't look it, especially to a new passenger!

I'd really recommend finding a way to take a smaller vehicle over Black Bear before taking a pickup over it. Then you can decide if you want to take a pickup later.

And for Janey, see what she thinks of the other roads in the area. If she doesn't have much trouble with the other shelf roads, maybe she'd enjoy the adrenaline rush of Black Bear. But my wife doesn't think very many of her friends would be willing to ride on Black Bear. So this might be a trail to enjoy with your son instead.

It took us about 2.5 hours moving (plus another hour for the stops) to drive the 11.5 miles. I drove this trail on day 2 as well.

Engineer Mountain Road: This is another one that might best be saved for a later day. There are a few places that are a little shelfy, but nothing extreme. There are some sections where finding a place to pass oncoming traffic is a little difficult. Nothing too bad, but you might want to prove to yourselves that it works on other trails first.

The main reason to leave this trail for later is that it's probably the hardest fourwheeling trail you're likely to do (it's not that hard, just that the others are pretty easy). Big Blue is up to it, and you'll be able to do it. But it might be nicer to get your feet wet on trails where you don't need to think about lines. I think you will enjoy Engineer Mountain Road, but I think you'll enjoy it more if it isn't your first experience.

It took us about 2 hours moving (plus stops) to drive the full 7 miles (~1 hour to go ~2.5 miles from the highway to the Poughkeepsie turnoff). I drove this road on days 1, 3, 4 and 5 in my trip report

[Gary Lewis]

OK, I'll start to give some comments about specific trails with you, Janey and Big Blue in mind. I'll use the sketched maps I had in my trip report thread (reposted here). I'll start in the northwest and work my way to the southeast. I won't hit all of the trails in this first post, but I'll get back to it. After that we can discuss some possible day routes that will be fun for everyone.

Imogene Pass: As I mentioned in my trip report, this is sort of a beginner's "Black Bear". It's shelfy enough to add some excitement, but never for too long, or too narrow or steep. There certainly weren't any switchbacks I needed to back up on, so I don't think Big Blue will have any significant issues there. Overall it doesn't need to be very difficult, but there are some "playgrounds" where you can take some more difficult lines to learn and have fun.

The trail runs right from the town of Telluride to right in Ouray (it may be run either direction). It took us about 3 hours to drive the 16.5 miles. Most people run it to get back to Ouray after running Black Bear, but you can run it on it's own too. You then can go back on the highway (~50 miles in ~1 hour). Or just turn around at some point and go back on the same trail (but Telluride is a nice town to see too).

I wouldn't suggest you do it in the first day or two. But I'm quite sure that, as long as things are overall going well, that you and Janey will enjoy it.

I drove this trail on day 2 in our trip if you want to look at pictures and what I said about it in my trip report thread

Black Bear: OK, let's get this out of the way quick. I don't really recommend you take this trail, especially on the first trip. While it would be possible to do the switchbacks in a fullsize longbox truck, several of them will take a few backups, and each time you'll be hanging the front bumper off a cliff. Doable? Yes. But probably not fun, especially for a new passenger. And the tight switchbacks connect narrow shelf roads. They are plenty wide enough for Big Blue, but they won't look it, especially to a new passenger!

I'd really recommend finding a way to take a smaller vehicle over Black Bear before taking a pickup over it. Then you can decide if you want to take a pickup later.

And for Janey, see what she thinks of the other roads in the area. If she doesn't have much trouble with the other shelf roads, maybe she'd enjoy the adrenaline rush of Black Bear. But my wife doesn't think very many of her friends would be willing to ride on Black Bear. So this might be a trail to enjoy with your son instead.

It took us about 2.5 hours moving (plus another hour for the stops) to drive the 11.5 miles. I drove this trail on day 2 as well.

Engineer Mountain Road: This is another one that might best be saved for a later day. There are a few places that are a little shelfy, but nothing extreme. There are some sections where finding a place to pass oncoming traffic is a little difficult. Nothing too bad, but you might want to prove to yourselves that it works on other trails first.

The main reason to leave this trail for later is that it's probably the hardest fourwheeling trail you're likely to do (it's not that hard, just that the others are pretty easy). Big Blue is up to it, and you'll be able to do it. But it might be nicer to get your feet wet on trails where you don't need to think about lines. I think you will enjoy Engineer Mountain Road, but I think you'll enjoy it more if it isn't your first experience.

It took us about 2 hours moving (plus stops) to drive the full 7 miles (~1 hour to go ~2.5 miles from the highway to the Poughkeepsie turnoff). I drove this road on days 1, 3, 4 and 5 in my trip report

Boy, this is the best kind of info I could possibly get. THANK YOU!

But, I have some questions. First, probably 25 years ago we rented a Jeep in Silverton and took several trails. I know we made it to Lake City as I remember driving around the town and then going back out the way we came, with a great big/tall brick smoke stack down in the valley below the road. (My mother collected brick, and I hiked down and got her one.)

I think we went into Ouray, so it looks like we took Engineer Mountain Road. Right?

Also, we saw Telluride from above, and actually not too far above, but turned and didn't go down into the town. We continued on and came out on the highway, and went back down to Silverton. But the only trails I see that do that on your map are Black Bear and Imogene Pass. Surely we didn't take Black Bear, but it does sound familiar. We had our kids with us and they were probably about 15ish, and our son loved it. But our daughter and Janey got out and walked once on a gravely steep part of the trail where the Jeep wanted to walk sideways - toward the dropoff.

Thoughts?

And, on Engineer Mountain Road you say it "might best be saved for a later day". Is that a later day in the trip or a later trip?

 

[Nothing Special]

Boy, this is the best kind of info I could possibly get. THANK YOU!

But, I have some questions. First, probably 25 years ago we rented a Jeep in Silverton and took several trails. I know we made it to Lake City as I remember driving around the town and then going back out the way we came, with a great big/tall brick smoke stack down in the valley below the road. (My mother collected brick, and I hiked down and got her one.)

I think we went into Ouray, so it looks like we took Engineer Mountain Road. Right?

Also, we saw Telluride from above, and actually not too far above, but turned and didn't go down into the town. We continued on and came out on the highway, and went back down to Silverton. But the only trails I see that do that on your map are Black Bear and Imogene Pass. Surely we didn't take Black Bear, but it does sound familiar. We had our kids with us and they were probably about 15ish, and our son loved it. But our daughter and Janey got out and walked once on a gravely steep part of the trail where the Jeep wanted to walk sideways - toward the dropoff.

Thoughts?

And, on Engineer Mountain Road you say it "might best be saved for a later day". Is that a later day in the trip or a later trip?

You're very welcome! Trips like this are more fun (and the fun lasts a lot longer) when you can share them like this!

I've never been very close to Lake City, and I don't recall seeing an old smokestack. If you came from Lake City and ended at Ouray it could've been either Engineer Pass, coming down to the highway on Engineer Mountain Road. Or it could've been Cinnamon Pass, coming out on Corkscrew Gulch. It's not far on highway 550 from Engineer Mountain Road to Corkscrew Gulch.

I know there are some other trails on the west side of highway 550, I just don't know anything about them. It could've been Imogene Pass that you saw Telluride from. And there's an Ophir Pass that I think is south of Black Bear (I've never been on it), so that might be a possibility too. Or it is possible to take Black Bear Pass from highway 550 to where you can see Telluride, then turn around and go back to 550. Black Bear is only one-way from Adios Curve to Bridal Veil Falls (the steep, narrow shelves and switchbacks). So you could have been on probably any of those.

And I was thinking of Engineer Mountain Road and Imogene Pass as being good choices for a first trip, just not a first day or two in that trip.

[Nothing Special]

OK, I'll start to give some comments about specific trails with you, Janey and Big Blue in mind. I'll use the sketched maps I had in my trip report thread (reposted here). I'll start in the northwest and work my way to the southeast. I won't hit all of the trails in this first post, but I'll get back to it. After that we can discuss some possible day routes that will be fun for everyone.

Imogene Pass: As I mentioned in my trip report, this is sort of a beginner's "Black Bear". It's shelfy enough to add some excitement, but never for too long, or too narrow or steep. There certainly weren't any switchbacks I needed to back up on, so I don't think Big Blue will have any significant issues there. Overall it doesn't need to be very difficult, but there are some "playgrounds" where you can take some more difficult lines to learn and have fun.

The trail runs right from the town of Telluride to right in Ouray (it may be run either direction). It took us about 3 hours to drive the 16.5 miles. Most people run it to get back to Ouray after running Black Bear, but you can run it on it's own too. You then can go back on the highway (~50 miles in ~1 hour). Or just turn around at some point and go back on the same trail (but Telluride is a nice town to see too).

I wouldn't suggest you do it in the first day or two. But I'm quite sure that, as long as things are overall going well, that you and Janey will enjoy it.

I drove this trail on day 2 in our trip if you want to look at pictures and what I said about it in my trip report thread

Black Bear: OK, let's get this out of the way quick. I don't really recommend you take this trail, especially on the first trip. While it would be possible to do the switchbacks in a fullsize longbox truck, several of them will take a few backups, and each time you'll be hanging the front bumper off a cliff. Doable? Yes. But probably not fun, especially for a new passenger. And the tight switchbacks connect narrow shelf roads. They are plenty wide enough for Big Blue, but they won't look it, especially to a new passenger!

I'd really recommend finding a way to take a smaller vehicle over Black Bear before taking a pickup over it. Then you can decide if you want to take a pickup later.

And for Janey, see what she thinks of the other roads in the area. If she doesn't have much trouble with the other shelf roads, maybe she'd enjoy the adrenaline rush of Black Bear. But my wife doesn't think very many of her friends would be willing to ride on Black Bear. So this might be a trail to enjoy with your son instead.

It took us about 2.5 hours moving (plus another hour for the stops) to drive the 11.5 miles. I drove this trail on day 2 as well.

Engineer Mountain Road: This is another one that might best be saved for a later day. There are a few places that are a little shelfy, but nothing extreme. There are some sections where finding a place to pass oncoming traffic is a little difficult. Nothing too bad, but you might want to prove to yourselves that it works on other trails first.

The main reason to leave this trail for later is that it's probably the hardest fourwheeling trail you're likely to do (it's not that hard, just that the others are pretty easy). Big Blue is up to it, and you'll be able to do it. But it might be nicer to get your feet wet on trails where you don't need to think about lines. I think you will enjoy Engineer Mountain Road, but I think you'll enjoy it more if it isn't your first experience.

It took us about 2 hours moving (plus stops) to drive the full 7 miles (~1 hour to go ~2.5 miles from the highway to the Poughkeepsie turnoff). I drove this road on days 1, 3, 4 and 5 in my trip report

Back to my thoughts on the trails...

Poughkeepsie Gulch: This is unquestionably the hardest trail in the area. It's not the scariest. In fact, it mostly runs up the bottom of a valley, so there are very few shelf sections, and the ones it does have aren't that high up. And it's not the tightest. I think the only switchbacks that might give a fullsize truck any issues are on the bypass. But it's steep, with big rocks in some places and loose rocks in others. I'm pretty sure I could've driven every other trail in the Ouray area in 2WD (with a rear locker and the low range gearing). But Poughkeepsie requires at least 4WD.

As the hardest trail in the area, I definitely wouldn't suggest you start with it. But I do think the three of you (you, Janey and Big Blue) might be able to enjoy it a little later in a first trip. If Engineer Mountain Road doesn't stress anyone out too much, Poughkeepsie might well be worth a look.

I would suggest going down Poughkeepsie the first time. I think it's easier to get to the fun spots that way, and if/when you get to where you feel you need to turn around, you'll probably have been able to see more of the trail.

Lake Como is near the top (a good place for a picnic, not that there's any shortage of those). Soon after that you get to the fork for the bypass. Stop and walk down the bypass trail a little. The tightest parts of that are near the top. If you feel OK about what you see in the first hundred yards or so you can probably drive it if/when you want to.

But then take the left fork down the main trail. Pretty soon you'll get to the first "playground." There are several different lines down a pretty steep hill into a bowl, then one or two lines back up out of the bowl to continue on down the trail. The first time I came here (driving my Jeep down in 2000) I was a little freaked out! None of the lines looked easy. I took what I thought looked easiest and had no trouble. And on this trip it didn't look bad to me at all (my perspective had changed, not the trail). But I have seen others (especially beginners on ATVs) freak out here as well. So if you decide this is above your capabilities / willingness, no shame in stopping at this point and going back up to the lake.

If you drive (or walk) down a little farther you'll get to the top of the Wall. It's not a very short walk given the elevation, but it's not too long either, maybe 1/4 mile each way? From there you will probably be able to watch others play (it usually seems to have at least a few people on it). And you can walk around and see what you think of doing it yourself. I'm not suggesting that you do it, you'll need to decide if it's something you'll all enjoy. But I'm sure there are lines Big Blue would make it down safely. And the left side of the right section (as you look up) wouldn't be hard to winch back up if it came to that. So again, scope it out and go as far as you feel comfortable, with no shame in turning around.

If you do get down to the Wall it might be worth a walk down the approach trail. It's narrow, steep and a little rocky for the first hundred yards or so, but it opens up after that. Again, after you see it and know what you think of it you can decide if you want to drive it or not. Once you get past that first section nothing else is even close to that difficult the rest of the way down the trail.

Alternatively (or after going down and seeing what you think) you can drive up Poughkeepsie from Engineer Mountain Road. It's steep and loose in a few places, but with 2 TrueTracs Big Blue won't have any problems. When you get to the bypass you can decide which way you want to go. The bypass will bring you past both of the "fun" sections of the main trail, and ends in a tight series of turns that you might not be able to make (not sure of that, just not guaranteeing that you will make it). And these turns aren't hanging off an edge or anything, they have banks on both sides so there's nowhere to go if you don't fit on the trail. There were a couple other "interesting" sections of the bypass. I don't recall them specifically, but I remember thinking that as a bypass trail it wasn't at all boring, but that it shouldn't be too hard to do in a fullsize truck (other than maybe the top part).

Or you can go up the main trail, which, as noted above, gets steep, tight and rocky before it gets to the staging area for the Wall. If you go this way you'll have to decide if you want to keep going or where it might be time for you to back up. There won't be room to turn around in many places there, so it's either go up or back down a ways. Plan accordingly.

So in spite of Poughkeepsie being a hard trail, it's not at all sneaky about it. As long as you remember that you always have the option to bail out, I think you can have as much fun on it as YOU want.

[Gary Lewis]

Back to my thoughts on the trails...

Poughkeepsie Gulch: This is unquestionably the hardest trail in the area. It's not the scariest. In fact, it mostly runs up the bottom of a valley, so there are very few shelf sections, and the ones it does have aren't that high up. And it's not the tightest. I think the only switchbacks that might give a fullsize truck any issues are on the bypass. But it's steep, with big rocks in some places and loose rocks in others. I'm pretty sure I could've driven every other trail in the Ouray area in 2WD (with a rear locker and the low range gearing). But Poughkeepsie requires at least 4WD.

As the hardest trail in the area, I definitely wouldn't suggest you start with it. But I do think the three of you (you, Janey and Big Blue) might be able to enjoy it a little later in a first trip. If Engineer Mountain Road doesn't stress anyone out too much, Poughkeepsie might well be worth a look.

I would suggest going down Poughkeepsie the first time. I think it's easier to get to the fun spots that way, and if/when you get to where you feel you need to turn around, you'll probably have been able to see more of the trail.

Lake Como is near the top (a good place for a picnic, not that there's any shortage of those). Soon after that you get to the fork for the bypass. Stop and walk down the bypass trail a little. The tightest parts of that are near the top. If you feel OK about what you see in the first hundred yards or so you can probably drive it if/when you want to.

But then take the left fork down the main trail. Pretty soon you'll get to the first "playground." There are several different lines down a pretty steep hill into a bowl, then one or two lines back up out of the bowl to continue on down the trail. The first time I came here (driving my Jeep down in 2000) I was a little freaked out! None of the lines looked easy. I took what I thought looked easiest and had no trouble. And on this trip it didn't look bad to me at all (my perspective had changed, not the trail). But I have seen others (especially beginners on ATVs) freak out here as well. So if you decide this is above your capabilities / willingness, no shame in stopping at this point and going back up to the lake.

If you drive (or walk) down a little farther you'll get to the top of the Wall. It's not a very short walk given the elevation, but it's not too long either, maybe 1/4 mile each way? From there you will probably be able to watch others play (it usually seems to have at least a few people on it). And you can walk around and see what you think of doing it yourself. I'm not suggesting that you do it, you'll need to decide if it's something you'll all enjoy. But I'm sure there are lines Big Blue would make it down safely. And the left side of the right section (as you look up) wouldn't be hard to winch back up if it came to that. So again, scope it out and go as far as you feel comfortable, with no shame in turning around.

If you do get down to the Wall it might be worth a walk down the approach trail. It's narrow, steep and a little rocky for the first hundred yards or so, but it opens up after that. Again, after you see it and know what you think of it you can decide if you want to drive it or not. Once you get past that first section nothing else is even close to that difficult the rest of the way down the trail.

Alternatively (or after going down and seeing what you think) you can drive up Poughkeepsie from Engineer Mountain Road. It's steep and loose in a few places, but with 2 TrueTracs Big Blue won't have any problems. When you get to the bypass you can decide which way you want to go. The bypass will bring you past both of the "fun" sections of the main trail, and ends in a tight series of turns that you might not be able to make (not sure of that, just not guaranteeing that you will make it). And these turns aren't hanging off an edge or anything, they have banks on both sides so there's nowhere to go if you don't fit on the trail. There were a couple other "interesting" sections of the bypass. I don't recall them specifically, but I remember thinking that as a bypass trail it wasn't at all boring, but that it shouldn't be too hard to do in a fullsize truck (other than maybe the top part).

Or you can go up the main trail, which, as noted above, gets steep, tight and rocky before it gets to the staging area for the Wall. If you go this way you'll have to decide if you want to keep going or where it might be time for you to back up. There won't be room to turn around in many places there, so it's either go up or back down a ways. Plan accordingly.

So in spite of Poughkeepsie being a hard trail, it's not at all sneaky about it. As long as you remember that you always have the option to bail out, I think you can have as much fun on it as YOU want.

Excellent write up and really good advice. I'll plan on trying Poughkeepsie Gulch, but late in the trip. And, we'll try it going down so we can see the fun stuff before we bail - if we bail.

Thanks!