2019 Trip Planning - Ouray & The San Juans

[Gary Lewis]

I'm dreaming about a trip I want to take next year, and thought I'd use this thread to capture some thoughts, recommendations, links, etc. So please feel free to comment.

My hope is that I'll have Big Blue upgraded to EFI, ZF5, 3G, and a decent exhaust system early next year, and then I want to take him to CO to drive some trails. Janey has agreed to go, and the area we are targeting is around Ouray. That would let us use a hotel in Ouray as our base and drive the road/trails during the day, returning for a shower, hot meal, and soft bed each night.

According to the Famous Trails website there are plenty of roads/trails available, and they run the gamut from easy to very difficult. Janey is going to want easy trails, but I'll at least want to tax Big Blue a bit so will want to tackle some moderate or difficult ones. However, I don't want anything dangerous, and Janey won't go if it is very difficult.

Here are some other links:

• Trail & weather conditions

• Trails Offroad - Engineer Pass-Alpine Loop Connector

• Alpine Loop Status - Facebook

• Colorado's info on the Alpine Loop

So, does anyone have experience there?

[Nothing Special]

I was out there once before, in about 2000 driving my old CJ5. And I'll be out there again in about 5 days! My wife and I will be staying at the KOA just north of Ouray and running trails around there for about 5 days (assuming the fires don't change our plans).

I don't remember any trails being all that difficult. Poughkeepsie Gulch is probably the most difficult trail we did. It was pretty exciting the first time we ran it (going down), because it's pretty steep and seems like it will be really hard. But the second time we ran up it and took time to play around in a few areas. I found I could pretty much go anywhere I wanted to. I didn't take the hardest lines, but for my experience and equipment level (33" tires and a rear locker) it was a good beginner challenge. I did see a Dodge 3/4 ton diesel idle up it while I was there, so you won't have trouble fitting Big Blue. And with a pair of TrueTracs I don't think you'll have any trouble finding traction on Poughkeepsie.

(edit: After driving Poughkeepsie Gulch again this year, I found it's MUCH harder than it was in 2000. So please consider the above information out-of-date.)

I've heard of some other short trails that are supposed to be tougher. Hopefully I can explore some of them next week and give you a report.

Otherwise I can't say I really remember many of the trails specifically. Again, after next week I should be able to do better.

Well, I do remember Black Bear Road! If you want a really entertaining version of it, look up the YouTube video of it by Bill Tower (here's a link

). It shows a relatively novice driver in a basically stock JK drive down it while his wife absolutely has a cow!

I drove Black Bear in my CJ5 with my wife and two small kids. Is it dangerous? Absolutely, but so is a freeway. In either place one wrong move will almost certainly kill you. But also in either place it's so obvious what that wrong move is that you just don't do it!

Still, Black Bear isn't for everyone, and I really don't think I'd recommend driving a full size truck down it the first time. The trail itself is really quite easy, and Big Blue would wonder what the big deal is. But it is narrow, and in places it felt narrow in a CJ5! And there are a couple of switchbacks that require backing up with a CJ5. I've driven an '85 F-250 up Mt Antero (another Colorado road with tight switchbacks) and found it really hard to make the turns coming down. Going up you can hang your rear bumper over the cliff as you back your tires to the edge, but going down you will hit your rear bumper into the wall when you back up, so it takes a lot of "points" on some switchbacks (on Antero I ended up giving up on one and backing down the trail to the next switchback). And Black Bear is a one-way road, so driving down it is the only option.

I think I can talk my wife into doing Black Bear again on this trip, so I'll see what it's like in a Bronco (quite a bit longer, wider and taller than a CJ5). But I'm certainly not going to push you to drive it with Big Blue.

[Gary Lewis]

I was out there once before, in about 2000 driving my old CJ5. And I'll be out there again in about 5 days! My wife and I will be staying at the KOA just north of Ouray and running trails around there for about 5 days (assuming the fires don't change our plans).

I don't remember any trails being all that difficult. Poughkeepsie Gulch is probably the most difficult trail we did. It was pretty exciting the first time we ran it (going down), because it's pretty steep and seems like it will be really hard. But the second time we ran up it and took time to play around in a few areas. I found I could pretty much go anywhere I wanted to. I didn't take the hardest lines, but for my experience and equipment level (33" tires and a rear locker) it was a good beginner challenge. I did see a Dodge 3/4 ton diesel idle up it while I was there, so you won't have trouble fitting Big Blue. And with a pair of TrueTracs I don't think you'll have any trouble finding traction on Poughkeepsie.

(edit: After driving Poughkeepsie Gulch again this year, I found it's MUCH harder than it was in 2000. So please consider the above information out-of-date.)

I've heard of some other short trails that are supposed to be tougher. Hopefully I can explore some of them next week and give you a report.

Otherwise I can't say I really remember many of the trails specifically. Again, after next week I should be able to do better.

Well, I do remember Black Bear Road! If you want a really entertaining version of it, look up the YouTube video of it by Bill Tower (here's a link

). It shows a relatively novice driver in a basically stock JK drive down it while his wife absolutely has a cow!

I drove Black Bear in my CJ5 with my wife and two small kids. Is it dangerous? Absolutely, but so is a freeway. In either place one wrong move will almost certainly kill you. But also in either place it's so obvious what that wrong move is that you just don't do it!

Still, Black Bear isn't for everyone, and I really don't think I'd recommend driving a full size truck down it the first time. The trail itself is really quite easy, and Big Blue would wonder what the big deal is. But it is narrow, and in places it felt narrow in a CJ5! And there are a couple of switchbacks that require backing up with a CJ5. I've driven an '85 F-250 up Mt Antero (another Colorado road with tight switchbacks) and found it really hard to make the turns coming down. Going up you can hang your rear bumper over the cliff as you back your tires to the edge, but going down you will hit your rear bumper into the wall when you back up, so it takes a lot of "points" on some switchbacks (on Antero I ended up giving up on one and backing down the trail to the next switchback). And Black Bear is a one-way road, so driving down it is the only option.

I think I can talk my wife into doing Black Bear again on this trip, so I'll see what it's like in a Bronco (quite a bit longer, wider and taller than a CJ5). But I'm certainly not going to push you to drive it with Big Blue.

Great! You can give me some recommendations.

As for Black Bear, the video makes it seem less difficult than it really is. But, I think Janey would be out walking most of the way down. I'm sure Big Blue could make it as he really isn't that much wider than a Jeep, but making those turns would be a real pain.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your report, including the pics. Be careful!

[Nothing Special]

Great! You can give me some recommendations.

As for Black Bear, the video makes it seem less difficult than it really is. But, I think Janey would be out walking most of the way down. I'm sure Big Blue could make it as he really isn't that much wider than a Jeep, but making those turns would be a real pain.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your report, including the pics. Be careful!

Actually Black Bear is a very easy trail. Scary! But easy. A stock 2WD could do most of it without much problem. Low range for compression braking is by far the biggest advantage a 4WD has on it, and on one or two of the switchbacks you might need better than 2WD traction to easily back up. And yes, Big Blue isn't too wide for it (although you, or especially Janey, might think it is as you round that first turn out onto the shelf!). The real challenge for a full size truck is the switchbacks. Mixing that with a nervous passenger might make it a better idea to skip it. (Although the scariest section isn't that long, and wouldn't be a bad walk if it comes to that).

By the way, do you have a mapping GPS? I find it a lot of fun to play around with trails on a GPS. I have a Garmin GPSMap 60Cs (superseded by the 60CSx), and have recently upgraded to a Garmin Astro 320 (very similar to a 60 CSx but also allows you to track dogs). They are hand-held units with small screens. It would be nice to have one with a larger screen like the automotive nav systems use, but I don't know which, if any, of those will save tracks and waypoints like a mapping GPS. And it's that ability that makes it fun, to be able to save tracks of where you've been.

Garmin BaseCamp is a free download program that then takes the info off the mapping GPS and lets you see it on a computer screen. You can also create tracks and waypoints in it to transfer to your GPS.

Anyway, I'll have more to report (and some pictures) in a week or two!

[Gary Lewis]

Actually Black Bear is a very easy trail. Scary! But easy. A stock 2WD could do most of it without much problem. Low range for compression braking is by far the biggest advantage a 4WD has on it, and on one or two of the switchbacks you might need better than 2WD traction to easily back up. And yes, Big Blue isn't too wide for it (although you, or especially Janey, might think it is as you round that first turn out onto the shelf!). The real challenge for a full size truck is the switchbacks. Mixing that with a nervous passenger might make it a better idea to skip it. (Although the scariest section isn't that long, and wouldn't be a bad walk if it comes to that).

By the way, do you have a mapping GPS? I find it a lot of fun to play around with trails on a GPS. I have a Garmin GPSMap 60Cs (superseded by the 60CSx), and have recently upgraded to a Garmin Astro 320 (very similar to a 60 CSx but also allows you to track dogs). They are hand-held units with small screens. It would be nice to have one with a larger screen like the automotive nav systems use, but I don't know which, if any, of those will save tracks and waypoints like a mapping GPS. And it's that ability that makes it fun, to be able to save tracks of where you've been.

Garmin BaseCamp is a free download program that then takes the info off the mapping GPS and lets you see it on a computer screen. You can also create tracks and waypoints in it to transfer to your GPS.

Anyway, I'll have more to report (and some pictures) in a week or two!

Bob - I don't have a handheld GPS other than my phone. But I think I will have before our hoped-for trip next year. And in the interim I'll have to do some research.

Having said that, is a hand-held better than an iphone? What about Gaia? Even at the Premium level it is only $39.99, although that may be an annual fee. But, it can be turned on and off, and if I used it 4 years it wouldn't be any more than a hand-held unit. And, it has Apple Watch support - and I have one of those.

The app is free and it looks like there's a trial for membership, so I may give it a go and see what I think. But, what do you think?

[Nothing Special]

Bob - I don't have a handheld GPS other than my phone. But I think I will have before our hoped-for trip next year. And in the interim I'll have to do some research.

Having said that, is a hand-held better than an iphone? What about Gaia? Even at the Premium level it is only $39.99, although that may be an annual fee. But, it can be turned on and off, and if I used it 4 years it wouldn't be any more than a hand-held unit. And, it has Apple Watch support - and I have one of those.

The app is free and it looks like there's a trial for membership, so I may give it a go and see what I think. But, what do you think?

Believe it or not, I don't have a cell phone. Since I don't have any experience with using a cell phone as a GPS all I can do is tell you what I like about a hand-held mapping GPS. You'll have to figure out how phone apps compare.

What I like is being able to save tracks and waypoints that show where I was. That way I can sort of make my own maps (a lot of trails don't have good maps available). Being able to copy those tracks and waypoints into a computer program like BaseCamp lets me manipulate it later. So now when I'm going back somewhere I was at years ago I can be reminded of where I've been and see where new places are with respect to intersections I was at before.

That last part is less of a factor in Colorado where things are very open, and there aren't a lot of intersections. But in other places I 'wheel (like the Black Hills, or northern Minnesota) often the trails are in the woods and you might not be able to see anything of a trail except right at the intersection with the trail you're on. And there might be another intersection just a few yards around the next corner that you can't see yet and which goes to a completely different place than the one you're currently looking at. Knowing which intersection you're at can be very helpful!

It's also nice to be able to find a place on a map, create a waypoint (or track) for it in BaseCamp, and then load that onto my GPS. That helps me find new places much like the waypoints and tracks I create with the GPS helps me find my way back to old ones.

What I don't like about hand-held GPS is screen visibility. They work pretty well when you hold them in your hand (that is what they were made for after all). But the screen gets pretty small pretty quick when you get a mount to attach it to your windshield. That's why I say a GPS packaged like an auto nav sytem would be nice. But in the limited looking I've done I haven't found one that saves and displays tracks like a mapping GPS. And although they say that they can store waypoints, it's not simply hitting the "waypoint" button to get it to save one right here. So I haven't found one I want yet (but then again, I just bought the Astro for bird hunting, so I can't really justify buying another specialized GPS at this point anyway).

[Gary Lewis]

Believe it or not, I don't have a cell phone. Since I don't have any experience with using a cell phone as a GPS all I can do is tell you what I like about a hand-held mapping GPS. You'll have to figure out how phone apps compare.

What I like is being able to save tracks and waypoints that show where I was. That way I can sort of make my own maps (a lot of trails don't have good maps available). Being able to copy those tracks and waypoints into a computer program like BaseCamp lets me manipulate it later. So now when I'm going back somewhere I was at years ago I can be reminded of where I've been and see where new places are with respect to intersections I was at before.

That last part is less of a factor in Colorado where things are very open, and there aren't a lot of intersections. But in other places I 'wheel (like the Black Hills, or northern Minnesota) often the trails are in the woods and you might not be able to see anything of a trail except right at the intersection with the trail you're on. And there might be another intersection just a few yards around the next corner that you can't see yet and which goes to a completely different place than the one you're currently looking at. Knowing which intersection you're at can be very helpful!

It's also nice to be able to find a place on a map, create a waypoint (or track) for it in BaseCamp, and then load that onto my GPS. That helps me find new places much like the waypoints and tracks I create with the GPS helps me find my way back to old ones.

What I don't like about hand-held GPS is screen visibility. They work pretty well when you hold them in your hand (that is what they were made for after all). But the screen gets pretty small pretty quick when you get a mount to attach it to your windshield. That's why I say a GPS packaged like an auto nav sytem would be nice. But in the limited looking I've done I haven't found one that saves and displays tracks like a mapping GPS. And although they say that they can store waypoints, it's not simply hitting the "waypoint" button to get it to save one right here. So I haven't found one I want yet (but then again, I just bought the Astro for bird hunting, so I can't really justify buying another specialized GPS at this point anyway).

Hard to believe you don't have a cell phone. But, there had to be one, and I guess you are he.

I downloaded the Gaia app this afternoon and will play with it to see what I think. But, one thing that I've already found looks promising - the ability to geotag pics. I'm going to try it on our upcoming vacations to see how it works.

[Ford F834]

This sounds like a lot of fun Gary. I don’t have any recommendations as I have not been to the area, but I hear it is spectacular and I hope you take plenty of pictures. As far as trail difficulty, I don’t mind roughness or potential of getting stuck, but when it comes to the perils of falling or rollover I’m pretty conservative. Those are thrills I can do without.

[Gary Lewis]

This sounds like a lot of fun Gary. I don’t have any recommendations as I have not been to the area, but I hear it is spectacular and I hope you take plenty of pictures. As far as trail difficulty, I don’t mind roughness or potential of getting stuck, but when it comes to the perils of falling or rollover I’m pretty conservative. Those are thrills I can do without.

Those are Janey's no-go's as well, so I'm sure we won't do Black Bear. Having watched the video I know it wouldn't be acceptable to her, and I've promised her we won't do anything that isn't. Plus, with Black Bear being one way there's no way to turn around and go back.

[Nothing Special]

Those are Janey's no-go's as well, so I'm sure we won't do Black Bear. Having watched the video I know it wouldn't be acceptable to her, and I've promised her we won't do anything that isn't. Plus, with Black Bear being one way there's no way to turn around and go back.

Well, we successfully completed 5 days of 'wheeling around Ouray today! We have terrible internet connection, and as I'm still on vacation with my wife, neither of us want me spending a lot of time on the internet. So I'll fill in later. Possibly late next week, but more likely the following week.

One thing I will report now is that Poughkeepsie Gulch is MUCH harder now than it was when I was here in 2000. I did make it up, but it's definitely not the "good beginner challenge" I described it as above!

Gary, I figured I'd start with a trip report, with some pictures, and follow that up with my recommendations for you. As it's your thread would you prefer I put my trip report in it's own thread, or include it here?