"Realistic" towing ratings

[Rusty_S85]

I think stopping is a bigger concern than getting it moving.

My truck has 12x3" drums and very large ventilated rotors with dual calipers and a master cylinder with an 1 1/16 bore to displace enough fluid to actuate them.

A 250 HD/350 also has a larger booster and E rated tires.

If someone pulls out in front of you, or you're going down a long grade, with no trailer brakes and more than your curb weight pushing you there's little chance it's going to stop.

I've blown the friction off a pad with just a load of sheetrock in the bed.

Boy was I glad for a manual gearbox when that idiot short-stopped me.

They had no idea how close they came to being punted, hard.

Stopping is the bigger concern. Why I wont be towing oversized dual axle dumpster trailers with my flareside. I have always wanted to get a boat again one day and this truck did pull a old welcraft Texas Edition inboard/outboard boat nicely. But I think on here some discussion was had and for me it was generally accepted that I should be able to tow a 14,000 lb trailer easily which is considerably more than the documentation on here is listed axle ratio wise, it starts off with a 5.0 automatic at 3.55:1 gearing and I am looking at 3.25:1 gearing but will offset it by going with the E4OD planetary gear set for lower first and second gear for improved acceleration as well as towing without harming cruising. Me like you I wont be doing much towing but I do like the option and I know I have pulled a boat before and it wasnt great but it wasnt horrible, that was also with my oversized tires, 2.75:1 axle that was more like a 2.55:1 axle and a worn out C6 transmission with the smog 125hp 302. None of that will be in the equation anymore for me.

But with the technology we have today, there is no reason to not have a trailer with brakes and for me the only thing I might tow would be a boat and boats dont use electric brakes they use hydraulic surge brakes since water and electric trailer brakes dont go together.

[Gary Lewis]

But with the technology we have today, there is no reason to not have a trailer with brakes and for me the only thing I might tow would be a boat and boats dont use electric brakes they use hydraulic surge brakes since water and electric trailer brakes dont go together.

Lots of boat trailers have electric brakes, including mine. I replaced the totally rusted-up surge brake system with 4-wheel electric brakes years ago and they've worked wonderfully. I'll never go back to hydraulic brakes on a boat trailer, and probably not on any trailer.

And the new vehicles, like Blue, have electric brake controllers built in. Actually, Blue's brake controller is integrated with the sway/skid control system and will tap the trailer brakes to straighten you out should things start to go wonky. I saw that happen once when an 18-wheeler blew by us at more then 20 MPH faster than we were going and his bow wave moved the trailer sideways a bit. The controller tapped the brakes on the trailer, not the truck, and we were instantly straight.

But that technology requires either electric or electric-over-hydraulic brakes. It will not work on surge brakes.

[Rusty_S85]

But with the technology we have today, there is no reason to not have a trailer with brakes and for me the only thing I might tow would be a boat and boats dont use electric brakes they use hydraulic surge brakes since water and electric trailer brakes dont go together.

Lots of boat trailers have electric brakes, including mine. I replaced the totally rusted-up surge brake system with 4-wheel electric brakes years ago and they've worked wonderfully. I'll never go back to hydraulic brakes on a boat trailer, and probably not on any trailer.

And the new vehicles, like Blue, have electric brake controllers built in. Actually, Blue's brake controller is integrated with the sway/skid control system and will tap the trailer brakes to straighten you out should things start to go wonky. I saw that happen once when an 18-wheeler blew by us at more then 20 MPH faster than we were going and his bow wave moved the trailer sideways a bit. The controller tapped the brakes on the trailer, not the truck, and we were instantly straight.

But that technology requires either electric or electric-over-hydraulic brakes. It will not work on surge brakes.

I never seen one with electric brakes on a boat trailer and you look up boat trailer brakes you find that some have them but its not recommended.

First site when doing search for boat trailer brakes that states the following.

"However, few boat trailers are equipped with electric brakes, but they’re used on many RV and utility trailers. RV-grade systems, with painted automotive-grade components, are not intended for submersion, especially in salt water. Submerging a pair of electromagnet actuators and their wiring is generally regarded with the suspicion that occurs whenever you mix water with electricity. Tie Down Engineering does not recommend their electric brakes for marine applications."

The above is from an article by West Marine.

[Gary Lewis]

But with the technology we have today, there is no reason to not have a trailer with brakes and for me the only thing I might tow would be a boat and boats dont use electric brakes they use hydraulic surge brakes since water and electric trailer brakes dont go together.

Lots of boat trailers have electric brakes, including mine. I replaced the totally rusted-up surge brake system with 4-wheel electric brakes years ago and they've worked wonderfully. I'll never go back to hydraulic brakes on a boat trailer, and probably not on any trailer.

And the new vehicles, like Blue, have electric brake controllers built in. Actually, Blue's brake controller is integrated with the sway/skid control system and will tap the trailer brakes to straighten you out should things start to go wonky. I saw that happen once when an 18-wheeler blew by us at more then 20 MPH faster than we were going and his bow wave moved the trailer sideways a bit. The controller tapped the brakes on the trailer, not the truck, and we were instantly straight.

But that technology requires either electric or electric-over-hydraulic brakes. It will not work on surge brakes.

I never seen one with electric brakes on a boat trailer and you look up boat trailer brakes you find that some have them but its not recommended.

First site when doing search for boat trailer brakes that states the following.

"However, few boat trailers are equipped with electric brakes, but they’re used on many RV and utility trailers. RV-grade systems, with painted automotive-grade components, are not intended for submersion, especially in salt water. Submerging a pair of electromagnet actuators and their wiring is generally regarded with the suspicion that occurs whenever you mix water with electricity. Tie Down Engineering does not recommend their electric brakes for marine applications."

The above is from an article by West Marine.

I did a lot of research on the topic before I went that way. And I did read what West Marine said, but given what many others said and what my trailer manufacturer told me I found that it is badly out of date.. Read what eTrailer said:

Traditionally, trailer manufacturers did not use electric brakes on boat trailers because the brake magnet wiring and trailer wiring did not always have the best insulation or water protection.

These days, more and more manufacturers are using electric brakes on boat trailers due to improvements in wiring insulation and heat shrink connectors. If you are going to use electric brakes, I strongly recommend using heat shrink butt connectors, like part # DW05745-10, when splicing the wires together.

Properly installed electric brakes can be great. But, as eTrailer says, if you don't wire them correctly you'll have problems. The wiring going into the magnet, and the magnet itself, is encased in epoxy. So it is just the connections that get wet. Do them correctly and you won't have problems.

 

[Rusty_S85]

I did a lot of research on the topic before I went that way. And I did read what West Marine said, but given what many others said and what my trailer manufacturer told me I found that it is badly out of date.. Read what eTrailer said:

Traditionally, trailer manufacturers did not use electric brakes on boat trailers because the brake magnet wiring and trailer wiring did not always have the best insulation or water protection.

These days, more and more manufacturers are using electric brakes on boat trailers due to improvements in wiring insulation and heat shrink connectors. If you are going to use electric brakes, I strongly recommend using heat shrink butt connectors, like part # DW05745-10, when splicing the wires together.

Properly installed electric brakes can be great. But, as eTrailer says, if you don't wire them correctly you'll have problems. The wiring going into the magnet, and the magnet itself, is encased in epoxy. So it is just the connections that get wet. Do them correctly and you won't have problems.

Depends on the money you pay, at work we buy loaded backing plates from the local trailer shop as its cheaper than buying the shoe kits, the ones Ive installed are like $30 per loaded backing plate and as far as the seals on the magnets and the wires going into the magnets they didnt look quality to me so maybe its a price thing. I know the only electric trailer brakes I have is on a newer truck and my flareside doesnt have electric trailer brakes. I could wire some up but then it poses the problem of where do I mount the unit considering that I already have a large CB radio hanging under the dash and the left side has my toggle switch for my alarm valet mode which cant be blocked and the trailer controller has to be mounted level or as close to level as possible for proper function on the universal units I have installed at work.

[85lebaront2]

I did a lot of research on the topic before I went that way. And I did read what West Marine said, but given what many others said and what my trailer manufacturer told me I found that it is badly out of date.. Read what eTrailer said:

Traditionally, trailer manufacturers did not use electric brakes on boat trailers because the brake magnet wiring and trailer wiring did not always have the best insulation or water protection.

These days, more and more manufacturers are using electric brakes on boat trailers due to improvements in wiring insulation and heat shrink connectors. If you are going to use electric brakes, I strongly recommend using heat shrink butt connectors, like part # DW05745-10, when splicing the wires together.

Properly installed electric brakes can be great. But, as eTrailer says, if you don't wire them correctly you'll have problems. The wiring going into the magnet, and the magnet itself, is encased in epoxy. So it is just the connections that get wet. Do them correctly and you won't have problems.

Depends on the money you pay, at work we buy loaded backing plates from the local trailer shop as its cheaper than buying the shoe kits, the ones Ive installed are like $30 per loaded backing plate and as far as the seals on the magnets and the wires going into the magnets they didnt look quality to me so maybe its a price thing. I know the only electric trailer brakes I have is on a newer truck and my flareside doesnt have electric trailer brakes. I could wire some up but then it poses the problem of where do I mount the unit considering that I already have a large CB radio hanging under the dash and the left side has my toggle switch for my alarm valet mode which cant be blocked and the trailer controller has to be mounted level or as close to level as possible for proper function on the universal units I have installed at work.

I guess is does depend on what you are willing to spend. I just ordered and received a Hayes Genesis controller for my 2009 Flex Limited that has the factory tow package. This way I can use my tow dolly to transport the convertible for the exhaust system and any other work on my nice Master Tow dolly which has electric brakes. The Hayes Genesis does not have to be level, it can go up to -35° (control face upwards) and self adjusts once the brakes are applied. I can't use my old super reliable hydraulic actuated one that is on Darth.

I started looking on Amazon, but they do not have the Genesis, so I wound up on eTrailer again, eTrailer did not show the 1994-2011 Ford adapter harness, so found it on Amazon. Amazon popped up their "be sure this fits your vehicle" after I entered the PN Hayes gives for a Flex with factory tow package. Amazon told me that it wouldn't fit. I would think the people who made it know a little more than Amazon. One key question was not asked "with or without factory tow package". On the Flex this includes the wiring and an auxiliary fuse box in front of the main fuse box in which the relays and fuses are housed.

[Nothing Special]

I guess is does depend on what you are willing to spend. I just ordered and received a Hayes Genesis controller for my 2009 Flex Limited that has the factory tow package. This way I can use my tow dolly to transport the convertible for the exhaust system and any other work on my nice Master Tow dolly which has electric brakes. The Hayes Genesis does not have to be level, it can go up to -35° (control face upwards) and self adjusts once the brakes are applied. I can't use my old super reliable hydraulic actuated one that is on Darth.

I started looking on Amazon, but they do not have the Genesis, so I wound up on eTrailer again, eTrailer did not show the 1994-2011 Ford adapter harness, so found it on Amazon. Amazon popped up their "be sure this fits your vehicle" after I entered the PN Hayes gives for a Flex with factory tow package. Amazon told me that it wouldn't fit. I would think the people who made it know a little more than Amazon. One key question was not asked "with or without factory tow package". On the Flex this includes the wiring and an auxiliary fuse box in front of the main fuse box in which the relays and fuses are housed.

I've used trailers with surge brakes, including my boat trailer. I don't mind them on a relatively lightweight trailer on a relatively heavy truck (like my 2500~3000 lb boat/motor/trailer behind my 6600 lb truck). But when the trailer weight is approaching the truck weight I really prefer electric.

But with electric, make use you get a brake controller that's not the cheapy timer-based style. It costs more to get the kind that use an accelerometer to decide how hard to apply the brakes, but it's well worth the extra $20.

It costs a lot more, like $40,000 more, to get the kind that are integral to the truck's braking system. But you get a free truck with it, so it's not that bad really.

[Gary Lewis]

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It costs a lot more, like $40,000 more, to get the kind that are integral to the truck's braking system. But you get a free truck with it, so it's not that bad really.

YES! I paid $40k for safety and got a free truck!

[85lebaront2]

I've used trailers with surge brakes, including my boat trailer. I don't mind them on a relatively lightweight trailer on a relatively heavy truck (like my 2500~3000 lb boat/motor/trailer behind my 6600 lb truck). But when the trailer weight is approaching the truck weight I really prefer electric.

But with electric, make use you get a brake controller that's not the cheapy timer-based style. It costs more to get the kind that use an accelerometer to decide how hard to apply the brakes, but it's well worth the extra $20.

It costs a lot more, like $40,000 more, to get the kind that are integral to the truck's braking system. But you get a free truck with it, so it's not that bad really.

Bob, that is exactly why I bought the Hayes Genesis, it retails for around $100 but is a deceleration based unit. Years ago, a fellow employee at NNS and I brainstormed a strain gauged draw bar concept that would keep a fixed drag on the tow vehicle when the brakes were applied. I'm sure it could have been worked out and would have been excellent as long as the tow vehicle did not brake harder than the load being towed.

The Genesis is supposed to be "almost equal" to the older hydraulic actuated ones.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob, that is exactly why I bought the Hayes Genesis, it retails for around $100 but is a deceleration based unit. Years ago, a fellow employee at NNS and I brainstormed a strain gauged draw bar concept that would keep a fixed drag on the tow vehicle when the brakes were applied. I'm sure it could have been worked out and would have been excellent as long as the tow vehicle did not brake harder than the load being towed.

The Genesis is supposed to be "almost equal" to the older hydraulic actuated ones.

Bill - The "fixed drag" idea is a good one as it keeps the trailer behind the tow vehicle. Compare that to surge brakes, which are happiest if there's no drag on the tow vehicle, so if the trailer jackknifes you have no "surge" to set the brakes. But in your idea the "fixed drag" would cause the brakes on the trailer to come on and the two vehicles would be straight.

I really like that idea as I think about it. You could dial in more or less drag and be assured that you'll stop straight, not matter the trailer or the load.