Yes, Black Bear Road is dangerous

[Nothing Special]

Bob - Janey is sitting beside me so I'll watch the videos later when I get to the shop.

But thanks for the commentary. And the cautions. They will be heeded.

What I'm thinking we may do is to run Last Dollar Road and then Ophir Pass on Day one with our wives. Then on Day Two take them up to Animas Forks and do the Alpine Loop, although the last/north west section of that may be too much for them. Then on Day Three they may stay in town or rent a car and drive down to Durango for the day, and my brother and I'll tackle something like Poughkeepsie Gulch.

Then, depending on how confident we are, we MIGHT go for Black Bear the next day. Or, maybe not. By then we'll know something about ourselves and our machines, and can make a better decision.

If you're afraid Engineer Mountain Road won't be fun for your wives, after crossing Engineer Pass you can drop back down through Animas Forks to Silverton (the longer distance but probably quicker route) or from Animas go up California Gulch to Hurricane Pass and Corkscrew Gulch (shorter distance but much slower "roads"). Some of that second route is a little narrow and shelfy, but other than one set of switchbacks on Corkscrew I don't think any of it is any worse than what I saw of Ophir Pass (but I've never been on Ophir).

Also I might suggest you take Imogene Pass at some point. I don't THINK your wives will have too much trouble with it. It might be a bit shelfier than Ophir? But it is one that seems to be a favorite of many. Imogene is another of the options between Ouray and Telluride, so it often gets paired with Black Bear or Ophir. Or you could do Last Dollar and Imogene. Anyway, it's a trail you haven't done yet and might enjoy.

[Gary Lewis]

If you're afraid Engineer Mountain Road won't be fun for your wives, after crossing Engineer Pass you can drop back down through Animas Forks to Silverton (the longer distance but probably quicker route) or from Animas go up California Gulch to Hurricane Pass and Corkscrew Gulch (shorter distance but much slower "roads"). Some of that second route is a little narrow and shelfy, but other than one set of switchbacks on Corkscrew I don't think any of it is any worse than what I saw of Ophir Pass (but I've never been on Ophir).

Also I might suggest you take Imogene Pass at some point. I don't THINK your wives will have too much trouble with it. It might be a bit shelfier than Ophir? But it is one that seems to be a favorite of many. Imogene is another of the options between Ouray and Telluride, so it often gets paired with Black Bear or Ophir. Or you could do Last Dollar and Imogene. Anyway, it's a trail you haven't done yet and might enjoy.

First, I've been BUSTED! Janey went to my email to see if her Amazon order had gone through and saw the email notification on my post that said she's sitting beside me and I will watch your video later. And now she's watching the whole video that you posted of the Jeep rolling down the mountainside.

Anyway, good ideas on the trails, Bob. Thanks. Imogene is a good idea. In fact, the family we caught up to on Ophir had just done Imogene and he was still "puckered up" as he said. He thinks it is a 3 on a 5-point scale, and it was the first trail they'd done. Which is why he was sitting there looking at the Ophir road when we pulled up.

Looking at the Ophir road from the bottom it appears to be a very narrow road carved into the side of the mountain. But, as Janey said yesterday, it isn't bad at all when you are on it as then you can see it is quite wide. So that family had no problems at all, and when we stopped at the top and took pics for each other they were happy they'd done it.

As for Engineer, the other trails are good options to have. We can see what the gals think and always change the plans.

Thanks!

[Nothing Special]

.... From 1:06 to about 2:45 he's on "the Steps." That's the most difficult part of the trail. It's a series of bumps and holes. I guess people have rolled on this part, so it's not to be taken too lightly. But it's not that hard either, and no one really remembers it after driving the rest of the road! And the key to getting down it pretty easily is just to do your best to go straight down hills rather than straight down the trail. In other words, don't get into the situation where you are dropping one front tire in a hole when the other is climbing something. Turn so you go as straight into the holes as possible....

And here's

. More of a flop than a roll, and it wouldn't ruin anyone's life, but it could sure ruin a day.

I showed this to Lesley and she said "he's just driving on a dirt road!" Keep in mind that it's hard to keep a good perspective on what horizontal is in pictures and videos in the mountains. This is going down a steep hill and he drops the left front into a hole. You can't see it very well, but I strongly suspect that if he'd veered left a little before that he'd have been fine, with both front tires going into the hole around the same time.

[Gary Lewis]

.... From 1:06 to about 2:45 he's on "the Steps." That's the most difficult part of the trail. It's a series of bumps and holes. I guess people have rolled on this part, so it's not to be taken too lightly. But it's not that hard either, and no one really remembers it after driving the rest of the road! And the key to getting down it pretty easily is just to do your best to go straight down hills rather than straight down the trail. In other words, don't get into the situation where you are dropping one front tire in a hole when the other is climbing something. Turn so you go as straight into the holes as possible....

And here's

. More of a flop than a roll, and it wouldn't ruin anyone's life, but it could sure ruin a day.

I showed this to Lesley and she said "he's just driving on a dirt road!" Keep in mind that it's hard to keep a good perspective on what horizontal is in pictures and videos in the mountains. This is going down a steep hill and he drops the left front into a hole. You can't see it very well, but I strongly suspect that if he'd veered left a little before that he'd have been fine, with both front tires going into the hole around the same time.

Ok, I've now watched the SuperDuty go down Black Bear. He made it look fairly easy, but I can see how tight it is and how rough it is.

And, I see the "flop". In fact, I could see it coming in the shot from the rear. And I agree that turning left would have saved him.

But, neither my brother nor I have that much experience, and it would certainly ruin our day if we flopped a vehicle over.

So, I'm not too gung ho 'bout tackling Black Bear. I'm not at all saying we won't, but I'm being a bit more cautious.

And, on a slightly different subject, our daughter asked today for LOTS of detail on trips we've taken, including pictures. Janey found the pics of our Colorado trip when we rented the Jeep, and there's one of us on top of Cinnamon Pass - and everyone was smiling.

Plus, I got an email from my brother saying we need to nail down a date and a place to stay or places will fill up. So I guess this is happening!

[Nothing Special]

Ok, I've now watched the SuperDuty go down Black Bear. He made it look fairly easy, but I can see how tight it is and how rough it is.

And, I see the "flop". In fact, I could see it coming in the shot from the rear. And I agree that turning left would have saved him.

But, neither my brother nor I have that much experience, and it would certainly ruin our day if we flopped a vehicle over.

So, I'm not too gung ho 'bout tackling Black Bear. I'm not at all saying we won't, but I'm being a bit more cautious.

And, on a slightly different subject, our daughter asked today for LOTS of detail on trips we've taken, including pictures. Janey found the pics of our Colorado trip when we rented the Jeep, and there's one of us on top of Cinnamon Pass - and everyone was smiling.

Plus, I got an email from my brother saying we need to nail down a date and a place to stay or places will fill up. So I guess this is happening!

Sounds like you're thinking about it the right way. I'm not trying to talk to into or out of doing Black Bear. It's a great, iconic trail, but it's not for everyone. But great that it sounds like the trip is going to happen!

And as I seem to be diving down a YouTube rabbit hole today (and dragging you with me!) here is another big truck on Black Bear. I think this guy seems to be greener than the guy in the F-250. I'm not sure, but my best guess is that the truck is an F-150 SuperCrew, the crew cab with the shorter-than-short-box. The first video shows

, the second shows

and just a little way down the next stretch.

One thing to notice in the first video is how it looks like Telluride is in a valley that slopes up away from the camera. It doesn't. It just looks that way because the camera is pointing down so much. In other words, it hints at how steep this section is.

These videos have the camera mounted on the truck, which never shows what's going on as well in my opinion (but of course is much easier to do than have someone follow with the camera). But when he rounds the second switchback (about 6:30 in the second video) you can see how easy it would be to bend some sheetmetal.

One other thing I'll mention is the driver seems to spend a lot of time with his head hanging out the window. That's a good way to see the driver's front tire better, but you don't see anything else. I've heard (and it makes sense) that it's a bad idea to do this, that it's better to keep looking out the windshield and keep getting the big picture. Use your spotter (or get out and look) if you need to see something better.

[grumpin]

Sounds like you're thinking about it the right way. I'm not trying to talk to into or out of doing Black Bear. It's a great, iconic trail, but it's not for everyone. But great that it sounds like the trip is going to happen!

And as I seem to be diving down a YouTube rabbit hole today (and dragging you with me!) here is another big truck on Black Bear. I think this guy seems to be greener than the guy in the F-250. I'm not sure, but my best guess is that the truck is an F-150 SuperCrew, the crew cab with the shorter-than-short-box. The first video shows

, the second shows

and just a little way down the next stretch.

One thing to notice in the first video is how it looks like Telluride is in a valley that slopes up away from the camera. It doesn't. It just looks that way because the camera is pointing down so much. In other words, it hints at how steep this section is.

These videos have the camera mounted on the truck, which never shows what's going on as well in my opinion (but of course is much easier to do than have someone follow with the camera). But when he rounds the second switchback (about 6:30 in the second video) you can see how easy it would be to bend some sheetmetal.

One other thing I'll mention is the driver seems to spend a lot of time with his head hanging out the window. That's a good way to see the driver's front tire better, but you don't see anything else. I've heard (and it makes sense) that it's a bad idea to do this, that it's better to keep looking out the windshield and keep getting the big picture. Use your spotter (or get out and look) if you need to see something better.

Interesting about looking out the windshield. When learning to fly an airplane you learn quick to find the horizon to know your attitude.

That’s why it’s hard to fly in fog or clouds, you have to trust your instruments!

I guess it’s like riding a motorcycle too, keep your head straight and look ahead on the corners.

[Gary Lewis]

Sounds like you're thinking about it the right way. I'm not trying to talk to into or out of doing Black Bear. It's a great, iconic trail, but it's not for everyone. But great that it sounds like the trip is going to happen!

And as I seem to be diving down a YouTube rabbit hole today (and dragging you with me!) here is another big truck on Black Bear. I think this guy seems to be greener than the guy in the F-250. I'm not sure, but my best guess is that the truck is an F-150 SuperCrew, the crew cab with the shorter-than-short-box. The first video shows

, the second shows

and just a little way down the next stretch.

One thing to notice in the first video is how it looks like Telluride is in a valley that slopes up away from the camera. It doesn't. It just looks that way because the camera is pointing down so much. In other words, it hints at how steep this section is.

These videos have the camera mounted on the truck, which never shows what's going on as well in my opinion (but of course is much easier to do than have someone follow with the camera). But when he rounds the second switchback (about 6:30 in the second video) you can see how easy it would be to bend some sheetmetal.

One other thing I'll mention is the driver seems to spend a lot of time with his head hanging out the window. That's a good way to see the driver's front tire better, but you don't see anything else. I've heard (and it makes sense) that it's a bad idea to do this, that it's better to keep looking out the windshield and keep getting the big picture. Use your spotter (or get out and look) if you need to see something better.

Ok, I saved these videos to watch this morning when I'd have no distractions. And I have lots of observations:

• Telluride: I see what you mean about the town appearing to slope up. Was there 10 days ago and it is on flat ground.

• Head/Viewing: I also see what you mean about where he was looking. Apparently his truck isn't as highly optioned as Blue as it has a display in the dash that shows pitch and roll, and that is something I'd want to watch. And, I have a Smittybilt app on my iPhone that shows the same thing. So I need to put a holder for the phone in Big Blue.

• Bending Sheetmetal: Yes! It would have been easy for him at that point to have gotten into that rock, which wasn't going to give at all. The spotter is the key.

• Narrow: Wow! I wasn't aware that some of the sections were that narrow.

• E-Brake: I really wish our trucks had a hand-operated emergency brake lever. That would be so much easier and smoother than the foot pedal we have. With the pedal and a manual tranny you have to feather the clutch and then pop the e-brake off with your left hand. But if you then kill the engine you'll have to quickly move a foot to the service brake to prevent moving. With a hand-operated lever you can slowly release the e-brake and, should you kill the engine, quickly re-engage it.

Anyway, all of this has given me new-found respect for Black Bear. Thanks!

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, I saved these videos to watch this morning when I'd have no distractions. And I have lots of observations:

• Telluride: I see what you mean about the town appearing to slope up. Was there 10 days ago and it is on flat ground.

• Head/Viewing: I also see what you mean about where he was looking. Apparently his truck isn't as highly optioned as Blue as it has a display in the dash that shows pitch and roll, and that is something I'd want to watch. And, I have a Smittybilt app on my iPhone that shows the same thing. So I need to put a holder for the phone in Big Blue.

• Bending Sheetmetal: Yes! It would have been easy for him at that point to have gotten into that rock, which wasn't going to give at all. The spotter is the key.

• Narrow: Wow! I wasn't aware that some of the sections were that narrow.

• E-Brake: I really wish our trucks had a hand-operated emergency brake lever. That would be so much easier and smoother than the foot pedal we have. With the pedal and a manual tranny you have to feather the clutch and then pop the e-brake off with your left hand. But if you then kill the engine you'll have to quickly move a foot to the service brake to prevent moving. With a hand-operated lever you can slowly release the e-brake and, should you kill the engine, quickly re-engage it.

Anyway, all of this has given me new-found respect for Black Bear. Thanks!

Another comment I forgot to make is that with the D60 Big Blue's turning radius is much improved over that with a TTB. So that will help a bunch on the switchbacks.

However, another thought I had is that having two vehicles with just a driver each isn't a big help. When a spotter is needed that means a lot of stopping, walking, etc. And that will surely slow things down for everyone.

I wonder if when we get to the tough stuff both of us should be in one vehicle. And while the FJ would be quite capable, I sure like it to be Big Blue. That's what I am building it for. Besides, that's where the on-board air will be, and surely we'll want to air down.

[Nothing Special]

Ok, I saved these videos to watch this morning when I'd have no distractions. And I have lots of observations:

• Telluride: I see what you mean about the town appearing to slope up. Was there 10 days ago and it is on flat ground.

• Head/Viewing: I also see what you mean about where he was looking. Apparently his truck isn't as highly optioned as Blue as it has a display in the dash that shows pitch and roll, and that is something I'd want to watch. And, I have a Smittybilt app on my iPhone that shows the same thing. So I need to put a holder for the phone in Big Blue.

• Bending Sheetmetal: Yes! It would have been easy for him at that point to have gotten into that rock, which wasn't going to give at all. The spotter is the key.

• Narrow: Wow! I wasn't aware that some of the sections were that narrow.

• E-Brake: I really wish our trucks had a hand-operated emergency brake lever. That would be so much easier and smoother than the foot pedal we have. With the pedal and a manual tranny you have to feather the clutch and then pop the e-brake off with your left hand. But if you then kill the engine you'll have to quickly move a foot to the service brake to prevent moving. With a hand-operated lever you can slowly release the e-brake and, should you kill the engine, quickly re-engage it.

Anyway, all of this has given me new-found respect for Black Bear. Thanks!

A few comments (keeping in mind that I'm no expert, just a fairly experienced amateur)

edit to add: "Few?" I guess this got pretty long. Oh well, I've already told you that one thing no one has ever called me is "concise!"

• Head/Viewing: I also see what you mean about where he was looking. Apparently his truck isn't as highly optioned as Blue as it has a display in the dash that shows pitch and roll, and that is something I'd want to watch. And, I have a Smittybilt app on my iPhone that shows the same thing. So I need to put a holder for the phone in Big Blue.

Keep in mind here that my personal preferences lean away from tech most of the time. But I wouldn't worry about pitch and roll readings. For one thing, I don't know (and I'd guess you don't either) what the max number can be. It'd be interesting to see how far my Bronco leans, or how steep the pitch is at times. But it's going to feel pretty bad a while before it actually goes over. So I think trusting the feel is better than looking at a readout. And I think it's better to be looking out the windshield so I can see where the next rock or hole is going to be.

• Bending Sheetmetal: Yes! It would have been easy for him at that point to have gotten into that rock, which wasn't going to give at all. The spotter is the key.

One trick that I think I've heard about that switchback (and switchbacks in general) is wait a while until you start the turn. And then wait a little more. Turning earlier MIGHT let you turn farther in the first "point." But then when you turn driver and back up you're going to be right into that rock. Give yourself enough room to manuever.

Another trick with a full size truck is to realize that the rear overhang is way worse than the front. As you go down the truck length that matters is front axle to rear bumper. That's a lot longer than when you are going up, where rear axle to front bumper is the limiting factor. So at times it's better to pull straight into the switchback, back down onto the lower trail, turn around going UP the switchback, then back into the switchback and pull forward onto the lower trail.

• E-Brake: I really wish our trucks had a hand-operated emergency brake lever. That would be so much easier and smoother than the foot pedal we have. With the pedal and a manual tranny you have to feather the clutch and then pop the e-brake off with your left hand. But if you then kill the engine you'll have to quickly move a foot to the service brake to prevent moving. With a hand-operated lever you can slowly release the e-brake and, should you kill the engine, quickly re-engage it.

This is why I like a hand throttle. I set the idle up, then keep my feet on the clutch and foot brake. I let out the clutch until the engine starts to lug down, then feather off the brake. That way I keep the ability to reapply the brake RIGHT NOW until I know the vehicle is moving the correct direction under engine power.

And with low enough gearing the hand throttle isn't really needed. I did this in my '85 F-250 driving up Mt Antero (another Colorado trail with famously tight switchbacks). Even with my low-altitude-jetted carb (but with the idle mix screws turned in) I could do this just with the engine at idle. (I might have turned in the idle screws a bit, I don't remember for sure. That can be a good trick for going up a trail, but you tend to want a lower idle for better compression braking when going down. Still, adjusting the idle up to where you can start in low-low without hitting the gas might be a better option than getting the best compression braking possible.)

And I generally don't trust an e-brake anyway, so I don't ever want to be sitting in a truck on a hill with the clutch disengaged and no foot on the brake. I either want the engine or the foot brakes being the primary control at any time.

Anyway, all of this has given me new-found respect for Black Bear. Thanks!

That's my goal. I keep saying that Black Bear isn't that hard, but it does demand respect. I know you can do it, but I also know that it can kill you. Which will happen is up to you. But if you know what you are getting into you can make the best decisions.

.... However, another thought I had is that having two vehicles with just a driver each isn't a big help. When a spotter is needed that means a lot of stopping, walking, etc. And that will surely slow things down for everyone.

I wonder if when we get to the tough stuff both of us should be in one vehicle. And while the FJ would be quite capable, I sure like it to be Big Blue. That's what I am building it for. Besides, that's where the on-board air will be, and surely we'll want to air down.

I wouldn't worry about that too much, It's definitely faster to only need to get one vehicle through an obstacle. But at least in the Ouray area none of the obstacles are that long, so it's not like you need to walk back a half mile to get the second truck. But do make sure the truck is well secured before you get out of it on Black Bear!

Another thing to keep in mind is common courtesy. I said this a couple years ago when you were doing early planning at the same time I was in Ouray, but Big Blue will be one of the slowest vehicles on the trail. No shame in that, my Bronco isn't much faster. But big vehicles on old-school leaf suspensions just can't go as fast as modern JL Wranglers, and they can't keep up with side-by-side ATVs or dirt bikes. So when you get a train behind you, find a place you can pull over and let them by. Believe it or not, there are quite a few places you can pass on Black Bear. On our last trip out a group of about a dozen Toyotas pulled over and let us by all of them at once in the first switchback and the trail from that switchback to the falls.

So as much as possible, when you do leave a vehicle, leave it where others can get around it. At Adios Curve you can probably find a wide place a bit above to leave the first vehicle, and then the first switchback is a good place to leave the second. That's a bit of walking, but the second driver can go back for his truck as soon as the first is around the curve, and the first driver only needs to hike back to the curve, not all the way to where the first truck was parked.

At the second switchback I don't think that's an option though, so make sure you aren't leaving the falls with a train and just park close to the switchback so you don't have to do a lot of walking. (But do leave enough room for the vehicle that needs to maneuver!)

 

[Gary Lewis]

A few comments (keeping in mind that I'm no expert, just a fairly experienced amateur)

edit to add: "Few?" I guess this got pretty long. Oh well, I've already told you that one thing no one has ever called me is "concise!"

• Head/Viewing: I also see what you mean about where he was looking. Apparently his truck isn't as highly optioned as Blue as it has a display in the dash that shows pitch and roll, and that is something I'd want to watch. And, I have a Smittybilt app on my iPhone that shows the same thing. So I need to put a holder for the phone in Big Blue.

Keep in mind here that my personal preferences lean away from tech most of the time. But I wouldn't worry about pitch and roll readings. For one thing, I don't know (and I'd guess you don't either) what the max number can be. It'd be interesting to see how far my Bronco leans, or how steep the pitch is at times. But it's going to feel pretty bad a while before it actually goes over. So I think trusting the feel is better than looking at a readout. And I think it's better to be looking out the windshield so I can see where the next rock or hole is going to be.

• Bending Sheetmetal: Yes! It would have been easy for him at that point to have gotten into that rock, which wasn't going to give at all. The spotter is the key.

One trick that I think I've heard about that switchback (and switchbacks in general) is wait a while until you start the turn. And then wait a little more. Turning earlier MIGHT let you turn farther in the first "point." But then when you turn driver and back up you're going to be right into that rock. Give yourself enough room to manuever.

Another trick with a full size truck is to realize that the rear overhang is way worse than the front. As you go down the truck length that matters is front axle to rear bumper. That's a lot longer than when you are going up, where rear axle to front bumper is the limiting factor. So at times it's better to pull straight into the switchback, back down onto the lower trail, turn around going UP the switchback, then back into the switchback and pull forward onto the lower trail.

• E-Brake: I really wish our trucks had a hand-operated emergency brake lever. That would be so much easier and smoother than the foot pedal we have. With the pedal and a manual tranny you have to feather the clutch and then pop the e-brake off with your left hand. But if you then kill the engine you'll have to quickly move a foot to the service brake to prevent moving. With a hand-operated lever you can slowly release the e-brake and, should you kill the engine, quickly re-engage it.

This is why I like a hand throttle. I set the idle up, then keep my feet on the clutch and foot brake. I let out the clutch until the engine starts to lug down, then feather off the brake. That way I keep the ability to reapply the brake RIGHT NOW until I know the vehicle is moving the correct direction under engine power.

And with low enough gearing the hand throttle isn't really needed. I did this in my '85 F-250 driving up Mt Antero (another Colorado trail with famously tight switchbacks). Even with my low-altitude-jetted carb (but with the idle mix screws turned in) I could do this just with the engine at idle. (I might have turned in the idle screws a bit, I don't remember for sure. That can be a good trick for going up a trail, but you tend to want a lower idle for better compression braking when going down. Still, adjusting the idle up to where you can start in low-low without hitting the gas might be a better option than getting the best compression braking possible.)

And I generally don't trust an e-brake anyway, so I don't ever want to be sitting in a truck on a hill with the clutch disengaged and no foot on the brake. I either want the engine or the foot brakes being the primary control at any time.

Anyway, all of this has given me new-found respect for Black Bear. Thanks!

That's my goal. I keep saying that Black Bear isn't that hard, but it does demand respect. I know you can do it, but I also know that it can kill you. Which will happen is up to you. But if you know what you are getting into you can make the best decisions.

.... However, another thought I had is that having two vehicles with just a driver each isn't a big help. When a spotter is needed that means a lot of stopping, walking, etc. And that will surely slow things down for everyone.

I wonder if when we get to the tough stuff both of us should be in one vehicle. And while the FJ would be quite capable, I sure like it to be Big Blue. That's what I am building it for. Besides, that's where the on-board air will be, and surely we'll want to air down.

I wouldn't worry about that too much, It's definitely faster to only need to get one vehicle through an obstacle. But at least in the Ouray area none of the obstacles are that long, so it's not like you need to walk back a half mile to get the second truck. But do make sure the truck is well secured before you get out of it on Black Bear!

Another thing to keep in mind is common courtesy. I said this a couple years ago when you were doing early planning at the same time I was in Ouray, but Big Blue will be one of the slowest vehicles on the trail. No shame in that, my Bronco isn't much faster. But big vehicles on old-school leaf suspensions just can't go as fast as modern JL Wranglers, and they can't keep up with side-by-side ATVs or dirt bikes. So when you get a train behind you, find a place you can pull over and let them by. Believe it or not, there are quite a few places you can pass on Black Bear. On our last trip out a group of about a dozen Toyotas pulled over and let us by all of them at once in the first switchback and the trail from that switchback to the falls.

So as much as possible, when you do leave a vehicle, leave it where others can get around it. At Adios Curve you can probably find a wide place a bit above to leave the first vehicle, and then the first switchback is a good place to leave the second. That's a bit of walking, but the second driver can go back for his truck as soon as the first is around the curve, and the first driver only needs to hike back to the curve, not all the way to where the first truck was parked.

At the second switchback I don't think that's an option though, so make sure you aren't leaving the falls with a train and just park close to the switchback so you don't have to do a lot of walking. (But do leave enough room for the vehicle that needs to maneuver!)

Bob - Those are really good suggestions. Thanks!

Hadn't thought about the difference of length going up vs down, but I see what you are saying. And pulling farther into a switchback before turning makes sense. You are going to have to do several iterations anyway, but get away from the inside if possible.

On the number of vehicles, it dawned on me today that if we leave the FJ for our wives then they'll have a way to go to Durango and/or Silverton while we take Big Blue on some of the more difficult trails. But I'll have to talk to my brother about that to see what he thinks.

And your approach to the brake makes sense. Now I really am liking the hand throttle idea even more. If I get the EFI on I think I could use the PTO signal that increases idle speed, and I have a switch slot in the switch group allotted to that. But if not then I will probably go with a hand throttle.