Dad's Truck Build

[85lebaront2]

No, not a chance. The crossmember will be ~6" aft of the factory holes. But I'll measure and report on exactly where they are as I do it.

Gary, looks great! I gather I was correct on the not needing an adapter if the correct flex plate is used. Only concern I see might be the lack of a solid piece around the TC center. The reason I say this, the converter clutch is applied by essentially reversing the oil flow in the converter, oil flow is normally in the outer portion at the back of the converter and returned through the input shaft. When the converter is in lockup, oil comes in the hollow shaft to the front of the converter forcing the converter clutch piston to the rear engaging the clutch. I would be concerned that the converter may "balloon" without a solid piece at the hub.

I also gather that the 460 PMGR starter is going to work on it.

FWIW, Darth's E4OD mount is 7" back from the C6.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, looks great! I gather I was correct on the not needing an adapter if the correct flex plate is used. Only concern I see might be the lack of a solid piece around the TC center. The reason I say this, the converter clutch is applied by essentially reversing the oil flow in the converter, oil flow is normally in the outer portion at the back of the converter and returned through the input shaft. When the converter is in lockup, oil comes in the hollow shaft to the front of the converter forcing the converter clutch piston to the rear engaging the clutch. I would be concerned that the converter may "balloon" without a solid piece at the hub.

I also gather that the 460 PMGR starter is going to work on it.

FWIW, Darth's E4OD mount is 7" back from the C6.

Yes, Bill, you were right. And I was wrong. Boy, was I wrong!

Re the "solid piece around the TC center", are you talking about the lack of anything supporting the front of the TC? You are thinking it might balloon forward since it doesn't butt up against the 460's crank, like shown in the snag below?

I could machine a sleeve that would be a slip fit over the hub and just be contained by the crank on the front and TC on the rear and provide some extra strength to the hub. But, do you really think it is going to expand enough to cause problems?

At this point I'm loathe to do that as I feel like I'm "there". But, if it is ever to be done now would be the time.

I think I'll call the people that built the torque converter and get their thoughts, but would like yours as well.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, Bill, you were right. And I was wrong. Boy, was I wrong!

Re the "solid piece around the TC center", are you talking about the lack of anything supporting the front of the TC? You are thinking it might balloon forward since it doesn't butt up against the 460's crank, like shown in the snag below?

I could machine a sleeve that would be a slip fit over the hub and just be contained by the crank on the front and TC on the rear and provide some extra strength to the hub. But, do you really think it is going to expand enough to cause problems?

At this point I'm loathe to do that as I feel like I'm "there". But, if it is ever to be done now would be the time.

I think I'll call the people that built the torque converter and get their thoughts, but would like yours as well.

Ok Houston, there is no problem!

I talked to the owner, Dale, of B&I Torque Converters in OKC, who are the ones that built this unit. He said that my unit (TF59 LS HD) has a billet back and welded turbine and impellor. And with the billet back there's no chance that it is going to expand. (And, by the way, the "LS" means "low stall", which is exactly what he'd recommend for this application.)

However, had I not opted for the "HD", which gets the billet back, then there could have been a problem with ballooning. So, Bill, you were right once again.

Also, I asked him about the 3/8" of pilot engagement with the crank on the 400 and he said that's quite adequate to center it.

Bottom Line: No worries!

[Ford F834]

Ok Houston, there is no problem!

I talked to the owner, Dale, of B&I Torque Converters in OKC, who are the ones that built this unit. He said that my unit (TF59 LS HD) has a billet back and welded turbine and impellor. And with the billet back there's no chance that it is going to expand. (And, by the way, the "LS" means "low stall", which is exactly what he'd recommend for this application.)

However, had I not opted for the "HD", which gets the billet back, then there could have been a problem with ballooning. So, Bill, you were right once again.

Also, I asked him about the 3/8" of pilot engagement with the crank on the 400 and he said that's quite adequate to center it.

Bottom Line: No worries!

Great news Gary! On to the cross member and transfer case!!!

[1986F150Six]

Ok Houston, there is no problem!

I talked to the owner, Dale, of B&I Torque Converters in OKC, who are the ones that built this unit. He said that my unit (TF59 LS HD) has a billet back and welded turbine and impellor. And with the billet back there's no chance that it is going to expand. (And, by the way, the "LS" means "low stall", which is exactly what he'd recommend for this application.)

However, had I not opted for the "HD", which gets the billet back, then there could have been a problem with ballooning. So, Bill, you were right once again.

Also, I asked him about the 3/8" of pilot engagement with the crank on the 400 and he said that's quite adequate to center it.

Bottom Line: No worries!

That is great news, Gary!

[Gary Lewis]

That is great news, Gary!

Well, today this happened today:

Yep, the crossmember is in place as is the BW1356 transfer case. Here's another view:

Along the way I took lots of pics and made many notes regarding where the holes went in the frame. I think I'll revive the E4OD For Dad's Truck thread to get into the nitty gritty detail that have been uncovered in the last few days, including:

• Several drawings of the crankshafts, flexplates, and the torque converter as well as dimensions

• The discussion about the possibility of the torque converter bulging/ballooning under pressure that we had today

• Pics and dimensions for where I drilled the holes in the frame to accommodate the E4OD's massive length

Does that seem like a reasonable approach? Use the E4OD thread for the detail? And then summarize it in a page on the website?

But, since we talked about the length of the E4OD in this thread, here's a shot of the left side frame showing all the holes in it. As you can see, the E4OD holes are 7 1/2" behind the original holes, and the ZF5 holes are 1 1/2" behind the original holes - assuming you use the C6 gussets. But, with the ZF5 gussets you can use the original holes.

Also, I'm thinking about placing 1/2" G8 bolts with washers top & bottom in the unused holes to put some strength back in the top and bottom flanges of the frame. Obviously that's not as strong as w/o the holes, but is better than nothing. Thoughts?

[85lebaront2]

Ok Houston, there is no problem!

I talked to the owner, Dale, of B&I Torque Converters in OKC, who are the ones that built this unit. He said that my unit (TF59 LS HD) has a billet back and welded turbine and impellor. And with the billet back there's no chance that it is going to expand. (And, by the way, the "LS" means "low stall", which is exactly what he'd recommend for this application.)

However, had I not opted for the "HD", which gets the billet back, then there could have been a problem with ballooning. So, Bill, you were right once again.

Also, I asked him about the 3/8" of pilot engagement with the crank on the 400 and he said that's quite adequate to center it.

Bottom Line: No worries!

Sounds good sir, I mentioned the ballooning because it is a known issue with the E4OD converters. Looks real good in there, seems a shame to hide it under the floor, maybe a glass floor?

Question, were those holes in the 4R100 case threaded or did you Tap them or use nuts?

[Gary Lewis]

Sounds good sir, I mentioned the ballooning because it is a known issue with the E4OD converters. Looks real good in there, seems a shame to hide it under the floor, maybe a glass floor?

Question, were those holes in the 4R100 case threaded or did you Tap them or use nuts?

I'm glad you did mention it! I would have hated to have the question come up later and not know if it was going to bite me.

Glass floor! Good idea! My brother said something similar - that it is going to be a shame to bury that engine under the EFI stuff. So we talked a bit about adding a stand-alone controller for the tranny and staying with a carb and that dual-snorkel air cleaner.

Edit: I missed the question. Which holes?

[Steve83]

I would be concerned that the converter may "balloon" without a solid piece at the hub.

Older 4R70W TCs (around '98-05 IIRC) were known to balloon, but mainly in police Crown Vics that had higher shift points, or in other Panthers that were driven hard (allowed to upshift at WOT). The TC was redesigned to eliminate the problem. I've never heard of an E4OD TC ballooning, and I don't think a stock flexplate could stop it anyway. AFAIK, the TC pilot is never supposed to bottom in the crank - it always floats there. So I don't see the lack of material near it as a problem. As long as it's centered before the flexplate nuts are tightened, it should be fine. If it's offcenter, I think there would be an obvious vibration at idle, and possibly frothy ATF on the dipstick.

https://supermotors.net/getfile/202695/thumbnail/torqueconverter00.jpg

... placing 1/2" G8 bolts with washers top & bottom in the unused holes to put some strength back in the top and bottom flanges of the frame.

I don't see how they could, unless the washers were MASSIVE in every dimension, and the bolts cranked to the point of stretching. But I don't think the difference would ever be appreciable. The only time the frame flanges are ever really stressed across those holes is in a T-bone collision. That's why the flanges are so narrow to begin with. Normally, the stress is in the (tall) frame web.

Which holes?

I assume he means the ones with eye bolts to lift the transmission.

If so: the nut is visible in the passenger-side pic.

[Gary Lewis]

I would be concerned that the converter may "balloon" without a solid piece at the hub.

Older 4R70W TCs (around '98-05 IIRC) were known to balloon, but mainly in police Crown Vics that had higher shift points, or in other Panthers that were driven hard (allowed to upshift at WOT). The TC was redesigned to eliminate the problem. I've never heard of an E4OD TC ballooning, and I don't think a stock flexplate could stop it anyway. AFAIK, the TC pilot is never supposed to bottom in the crank - it always floats there. So I don't see the lack of material near it as a problem. As long as it's centered before the flexplate nuts are tightened, it should be fine. If it's offcenter, I think there would be an obvious vibration at idle, and possibly frothy ATF on the dipstick.

https://supermotors.net/getfile/202695/thumbnail/torqueconverter00.jpg

... placing 1/2" G8 bolts with washers top & bottom in the unused holes to put some strength back in the top and bottom flanges of the frame.

I don't see how they could, unless the washers were MASSIVE in every dimension, and the bolts cranked to the point of stretching. But I don't think the difference would ever be appreciable. The only time the frame flanges are ever really stressed across those holes is in a T-bone collision. That's why the flanges are so narrow to begin with. Normally, the stress is in the (tall) frame web.

Which holes?

I assume he means the ones with eye bolts to lift the transmission.

If so: the nut is visible in the passenger-side pic.

Yes, those are lifting eyes with nuts on the bottom. I'd purchased them when I thought I was going to make a dolly for the engine and wanted to be able to lift it with them. Shipped the engine to Tim instead.

On the nuts, bolts, and washers, thanks for the thoughts.

Now, to think about the near future for Dad's truck. Rest! My goal for this spring has been to get it on all fours with steering and the engine, tranny, and t-case in. That way I can roll it onto the trailer and show it in the fall. And we are almost there. Here's what I need to do to get there, I think:

• Torque the t-case/tranny bolts as they are just snugged up to let the Ultra Black set up

• Torque the engine mount/frame nuts

• Powder coat another tranny mount/crossmember nut and install those and torque them

• Touch up all the fasteners installed recently

• Lube the body mounts, lower the cab, and snug up the bolts

• Roll the truck to the other end of the shop to await its turn again

As for what I'll be doing twixt now and Dad's truck's next turn, it's Big Blue's turn. Recently I've noticed that the clunk in the front end has gotten worse and the steering has gotten less precise, so I fear the frame is cracked. And, I've smelled oil burning one too many times, so it is time to pull the engine and replace the seals - as well as a few other things, like heads, pan, intake(s), exhaust, fuel delivery, spark system, valve covers, etc. Plus, there's a ZF5 sitting in the corner taking up space, so it needs a turn to play.

In other words, a new/different project. But this one won't include media blasting and powder coating everything. So, hopefully it'll go a bit faster.