Dad's Truck Build

[Steve83]

This makes no sense to me... why wouldn’t you want to be able to remove it and have a look at the edge of the friction disc to see how much material is left? Or have a better look at your ring gear teeth, or check for oil leaking onto the clutch surface or, or, or...???

You can't see any of those things through the window in the plate between the block & bellhousing. You can barely see the front of the ring gear - you can't inspect the teeth, and you certainly can't see the pressure plate (clutch cover/diaphragm) or the clutch disk inside it. Not even with a mirror, unless you pull the starter. And you can do that with either engine plate. The window is ONLY for automatics.

The diesel ZF has a removable one and you can see a lot with it off.

Its bellhousing is open at the bottom - AFAIK, it's the only bellhousing ever used on a Ford truck with an open bottom.

https://supermotors.net/getfile/545794/thumbnail/zf-s5427.jpg

Do you know of some others? The E4OD that Gary is planning to use certainly isn't, and neither is my NP435 (or any other that uses that bolt-on bellhousing).

https://supermotors.net/getfile/831120/thumbnail/m5odr2-exploded.jpg

https://supermotors.net/getfile/831130/thumbnail/tod.jpg

https://supermotors.net/getfile/72216/thumbnail/down.jpg

[Ford F834]

Its bellhousing is open at the bottom - AFAIK, it's the only bellhousing ever used on a Ford truck with an open bottom.

The diesel ZF and the 460 ZF main case are the same casting with different mounting and alignment dowel holes. On the diesel one you can even see some ghost marks where the 460 holes go. So there is no reason it couldn’t have the same type of removeable cover.

The diesel 4 speed bell has a removeable cover that is virtually identical to the ZF. The covers do not interchange, but they have the same type of access. I’m thinking the 460 4-speed bellhousing is probably the same way?

[Gary Lewis]

Its bellhousing is open at the bottom - AFAIK, it's the only bellhousing ever used on a Ford truck with an open bottom.

The diesel ZF and the 460 ZF main case are the same casting with different mounting and alignment dowel holes. On the diesel one you can even see some ghost marks where the 460 holes go. So there is no reason it couldn’t have the same type of removeable cover. The diesel 4 speed bell has a removeable cover that is virtually identical to the ZF. The covers do not interchange, but they have the same type of access. I’m thinking the 460 4-speed bellhousing is probably the same way?

Steve - The truck is going to have lots of extra grounds, but you are right that the powder coating or painting of everything will be an issue. I'll have to remember that, big time.

All - I'll pull out the 460 ZF5 engine plate and take a pic for comparison. But my memory which, if I remember correctly, () tells me that I modified it somewhat. Anyway, let's see if we can get to the bottom of the issue.

As for today, here's the plan:

1. Check the engine plates & snap some pics
2. Install the sway bar, snap some pics, and post
3. Measure the rocker/cab length & determine how many 2x4's I need
4. Revise shopping list
5. Drive Big Blue out to the marina and pay annual boat slip fee
6. Go to Tractor Supply and get another pair or two of jack stands, ratchet straps, and quick links, awa whatever else I think of
7. Go to Ace and get the 2x4's
8. Stop at Sonic and get the love of my life a diet cherry Coke with extra ice

As previously said, the 2x4's go between the rocker and the brace under the cab and allow me to pick up the cab w/o the pads of the lift touching it. But I have to rip the 2x4's down a bit to fit in there, and they need to be stacked as the depth of the rocker is 2+ or so.

The jack stands are to support the back of the truck while we install the engine and tranny to ensure the added weight doesn't let the whole thing move as the rear spring shackle pivots. Normally I have lots of jack stands, but all of the others are in use, so that's my excuse.

The ratchet straps are to replace some that a young man lost or damaged when he borrowed them. The Lord says to loan w/o expecting to be repaid (Luke 6:35), but He didn't say you cannot improve your hand when you replace things.

And the quick links are to replace some I've lost or damaged. Like the one I used to lift Huck's 460 - w/o closing it.

Anyway, that's the plan, Stan. But, plans are meant to be flexible, so .....

[Gary Lewis]

Steve - The truck is going to have lots of extra grounds, but you are right that the powder coating or painting of everything will be an issue. I'll have to remember that, big time.

All - I'll pull out the 460 ZF5 engine plate and take a pic for comparison. But my memory which, if I remember correctly, () tells me that I modified it somewhat. Anyway, let's see if we can get to the bottom of the issue.

As for today, here's the plan:

1. Check the engine plates & snap some pics
2. Install the sway bar, snap some pics, and post
3. Measure the rocker/cab length & determine how many 2x4's I need
4. Revise shopping list
5. Drive Big Blue out to the marina and pay annual boat slip fee
6. Go to Tractor Supply and get another pair or two of jack stands, ratchet straps, and quick links, awa whatever else I think of
7. Go to Ace and get the 2x4's
8. Stop at Sonic and get the love of my life a diet cherry Coke with extra ice

As previously said, the 2x4's go between the rocker and the brace under the cab and allow me to pick up the cab w/o the pads of the lift touching it. But I have to rip the 2x4's down a bit to fit in there, and they need to be stacked as the depth of the rocker is 2+ or so.

The jack stands are to support the back of the truck while we install the engine and tranny to ensure the added weight doesn't let the whole thing move as the rear spring shackle pivots. Normally I have lots of jack stands, but all of the others are in use, so that's my excuse.

The ratchet straps are to replace some that a young man lost or damaged when he borrowed them. The Lord says to loan w/o expecting to be repaid (Luke 6:35), but He didn't say you cannot improve your hand when you replace things.

And the quick links are to replace some I've lost or damaged. Like the one I used to lift Huck's 460 - w/o closing it.

Anyway, that's the plan, Stan. But, plans are meant to be flexible, so .....

Ok, here's a mid-afternoon update while I have another "cuppa".Got the pics taken of the engine plates. Here's a shot showing the cut-down ZF5 plate vs the 335 manual tranny plate:And here's another shot of it. You can see that I cut it down to be held on with just the two bolts into the "inspection cover" area of the ZF, as well as being pinched between the engine and tranny on the top. Not quite sure why I did that, but there it is.And here's a shot of the front of the tranny. You can see the two bolt holes where the cover is held on. So, a full engine plate would then cover the "inspection area". But I could cut the "cup" off of a full plate and cut the remainder such that it could be removed with the two bolts. Basically, just ensure the two parts don't touch so they won't vibrate against each other.Thoughts?Then on to the sway bar. IT IS ON! But not without a battle. The new bushings that go around the bar are split like the originals, and you have to pry them open to get them over the bar. That in and of itself was a battle, but armed with a plastic interior panel tool and that sticky grease I won the battle.But then came the Battle Of The Bulge! The bushing didn't want to go into the U-shaped clamp far enough to let both bolt holes of the clamp line up with the holes in the crossmember at the same time. So here's how I did it - installed the bottom bolt tightly, then used two clamps, appropriately padded, to pull the clamp over the bushing. Both of those clamps are as tight as I dared make them, but the hole finally lined up.And here's the detail at the end of the sway bar with the link:And here's the bracket that Jonathan asked about from the front:This is the backside, showing the u-clamp, bushing, etc:And now it is time for a drive in Big Blue!

[Ford F834]

Ok, here's a mid-afternoon update while I have another "cuppa".

Got the pics taken of the engine plates. Here's a shot showing the cut-down ZF5 plate vs the 335 manual tranny plate:

And here's another shot of it. You can see that I cut it down to be held on with just the two bolts into the "inspection cover" area of the ZF, as well as being pinched between the engine and tranny on the top. Not quite sure why I did that, but there it is.

And here's a shot of the front of the tranny. You can see the two bolt holes where the cover is held on. So, a full engine plate would then cover the "inspection area". But I could cut the "cup" off of a full plate and cut the remainder such that it could be removed with the two bolts. Basically, just ensure the two parts don't touch so they won't vibrate against each other.

Thoughts?

Then on to the sway bar. IT IS ON! But not without a battle. The new bushings that go around the bar are split like the originals, and you have to pry them open to get them over the bar. That in and of itself was a battle, but armed with a plastic interior panel tool and that sticky grease I won the battle.

But then came the Battle Of The Bulge! The bushing didn't want to go into the U-shaped clamp far enough to let both bolt holes of the clamp line up with the holes in the crossmember at the same time. So here's how I did it - installed the bottom bolt tightly, then used two clamps, appropriately padded, to pull the clamp over the bushing. Both of those clamps are as tight as I dared make them, but the hole finally lined up.

And here's the detail at the end of the sway bar with the link:

And here's the bracket that Jonathan asked about from the front:

This is the backside, showing the u-clamp, bushing, etc:

And now it is time for a drive in Big Blue!

Looks just amazing Gary! Wow. I really like the silver accents. Was the sway bar struggle a fight with the bushing elasticity or bar torsion or both?

Gary, I will have to tie a proverbial string around my finger to take pictures of the the diesel inspection cover in case it gives you any ideas on how to modify yours for Big Blue. I know there are at least three bolts, with one fastening through a flat flange on the driver side up by the oil pan.

[Gary Lewis]

Looks just amazing Gary! Wow. I really like the silver accents. Was the sway bar struggle a fight with the bushing elasticity or bar torsion or both?

Gary, I will have to tie a proverbial string around my finger to take pictures of the the diesel inspection cover in case it gives you any ideas on how to modify yours for Big Blue. I know there are at least three bolts, with one fastening through a flat flange on the driver side up by the oil pan.

Jonathan - Thanks! I like the silver accents so much that I had to show Janey, and she seemed to like them as well. (At least she said she did.)

The sway bar was a battle because of the stiffness of the Prothane bushings. At first blush they didn't appear to be split, but with some prying you could tell they were. However, they didn't want to open up enough to go around the sway bar, so needed to be pried open. And, since the sway bar is painted I didn't dare use a metal tool. But finally I grabbed a nylon interior panel tool and it gave me enough leverage to get a bit of a gap. Then, with plenty of sticky grease and some force it popped on.

However, that turned out to be the easy part. Even with plenty of grease the u-shaped clamp didn't want to go over the bushing. Either the new bushing is bigger or much more rigid than the old bushing, and it took a lot of force to get the clamp over it.

My guess is that the sway bar will be much more effective now.

Anyway, I am interested in how the diesel inspection cover fits. In fact, I wonder if one couldn't be grafted onto a 460's ZF plate? Or, maybe this 335 manual tranny plate modified to accommodate the inspection cover?

[Ford F834]

Jonathan - Thanks! I like the silver accents so much that I had to show Janey, and she seemed to like them as well. (At least she said she did.)

The sway bar was a battle because of the stiffness of the Prothane bushings. At first blush they didn't appear to be split, but with some prying you could tell they were. However, they didn't want to open up enough to go around the sway bar, so needed to be pried open. And, since the sway bar is painted I didn't dare use a metal tool. But finally I grabbed a nylon interior panel tool and it gave me enough leverage to get a bit of a gap. Then, with plenty of sticky grease and some force it popped on.

However, that turned out to be the easy part. Even with plenty of grease the u-shaped clamp didn't want to go over the bushing. Either the new bushing is bigger or much more rigid than the old bushing, and it took a lot of force to get the clamp over it.

My guess is that the sway bar will be much more effective now.

Anyway, I am interested in how the diesel inspection cover fits. In fact, I wonder if one couldn't be grafted onto a 460's ZF plate? Or, maybe this 335 manual tranny plate modified to accommodate the inspection cover?

Gary, I can take more pics later if you need them, but here are some from oilburners showing the ZF vs T19 inspection covers for the IDI. I don’t know if this helps at all, but it might give you ideas for modifying the 460 one. I think the main thing would be trimming it and figuring out another attachment point or two:

One unfortunate thing about the diesel cover being removeable is that it is often missing. It is no longer available and is therefore an “item” of interest and not particularly easy to find.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, I can take more pics later if you need them, but here are some from oilburners showing the ZF vs T19 inspection covers for the IDI. I don’t know if this helps at all, but it might give you ideas for modifying the 460 one. I think the main thing would be trimming it and figuring out another attachment point or two:

One unfortunate thing about the diesel cover being removeable is that it is often missing. It is no longer available and is therefore an “item” of interest and not particularly easy to find.

Jonathan - I think for now we have enough info and pics to allow me to think through this issue on Big Blue when the time comes. Thanks, a bunch.

But, just for help in getting back to it, here are a couple of links to FTE where I discussed how and where I cut the engine plate:

- First discussed here

- Later discussion here, where I said:

Also, I cut on the original engine/tranny spacer some more. This time I took the part off that the starter would have been touching so that I'll get as much engagement of the starter with the ring gear as is possible. And, although I thought I'd have to drill and tap the tranny to secure the spacer, that isn't going to be necessary given the way it fits as the thing gets wedged between the engine and tranny such that it isn't going to vibrate.

[Gary Lewis]

Jonathan - I think for now we have enough info and pics to allow me to think through this issue on Big Blue when the time comes. Thanks, a bunch.But, just for help in getting back to it, here are a couple of links to FTE where I discussed how and where I cut the engine plate: - First discussed here - Later discussion here, where I said:

Also, I cut on the original engine/tranny spacer some more. This time I took the part off that the starter would have been touching so that I'll get as much engagement of the starter with the ring gear as is possible. And, although I thought I'd have to drill and tap the tranny to secure the spacer, that isn't going to be necessary given the way it fits as the thing gets wedged between the engine and tranny such that it isn't going to vibrate.

Before I get started, my brother plans to come down to help install the engine, tranny, and t-case next Monday. So I have one week to get ready.

But today was another two steps forward & one step backward day. The first step forward was getting the tie rod ends torqued down. However, that wasn't as easy as it sounds. The problem was in getting the nuts indexed properly so that the cotter key would go through the hole in the stud.

That doesn't sound like a big deal until you remember that every nut and bolt has to have tape wrapped around it to protect the powder. And the tape obscures the view of the hole through the stud, so initially I was taking the tape off, checking the alignment, and re-taping. But then I discovered a process that worked, and if anyone is silly enough to be following in my footsteps I guess I should document it:

 

1. Mark the end of the stud with a line parallel to the hole
2. Torque the nut to the minimum torque for the stud - 52 lb-ft
3. Pull the socket off and see if the mark lines up with a gap in the castellation of the nut
4. Reset the torque wrench to the max value for the stud, which is 74 lb-ft
5. Put the socket back on, noting about how far you need to turn the nut, and turn it a bit less than you think is needed, but don't exceed the max torque value
6. Pull the socket and check, and if it isn't enough go back to Step 5 until you get it lined up

The shot on the left is at 52 lb-ft, and the shot on the right is at 60 lb-ft. This process sure saved a lot of taping and untaping - which I did on the first few nuts until I developed the process.

 

 

With that done I moved to getting the truck properly supported to accept the driveline components w/o moving, thereby ensuring that the cab will come back down from whence it came. And that meant placing the front on jack stands under the big bolt that secures the radius arm to the TTB, and jack stands under the rear axle.

It should be noted that the original plan was to put the jack stands under the very front of the frame so when we load the frame with ~1000 lbs of engine/tranny/t-case the suspension won't give and cause the frame to move. Unfortunately that plan won't work as the jack stands are then too close together to allow the shop crane's legs to go past them and under the truck.

So, back to the under-the-TTB plan for the jack stands. Got that done, which is the second step forward, and here's what it looks like:

Then I turned to the plan to lift the cab off the frame with the lift - and ran into a problem - the step backward. I don't know what I was thinking, but the arms on the lift are waaaaaay to long to just reach to the rocker panel. Here's a shot from underneath with the arms shortened by removing the extensions. Notice that the rear arm, the closest one, is dangerously close to the frame.

But, I have discovered that the truck is 3" closer to the left leg of the lift than to the right leg. So, I need to lift it up, remove the jack stands, drop it down, and roll it back and forth until I get it moved 1 1/2" right. That should allow the rear arm to easily clear the frame. I think I'll put tape on the floor to tell me where I want the tires to end up.

And, here's a shot of the "channel" that is between the rocker and the brace on the floor. It measures ~3" wide and 2" deep. So I'm going to rip 2x4's down to ~2 3/4" wide, stack two of them, and slip them in there with carpet on top of them.

Last, delivery of the flywheel/flexplate today was apparently Rock Auto's attempt at an April Fool's joke. That's ok as I didn't need it today, but perhaps it'll come tomorrow with the kit of stainless cotter keys.

[Gary Lewis]

Before I get started, my brother plans to come down to help install the engine, tranny, and t-case next Monday. So I have one week to get ready.

But today was another two steps forward & one step backward day. The first step forward was getting the tie rod ends torqued down. However, that wasn't as easy as it sounds. The problem was in getting the nuts indexed properly so that the cotter key would go through the hole in the stud.

That doesn't sound like a big deal until you remember that every nut and bolt has to have tape wrapped around it to protect the powder. And the tape obscures the view of the hole through the stud, so initially I was taking the tape off, checking the alignment, and re-taping. But then I discovered a process that worked, and if anyone is silly enough to be following in my footsteps I guess I should document it:

 

1. Mark the end of the stud with a line parallel to the hole
2. Torque the nut to the minimum torque for the stud - 52 lb-ft
3. Pull the socket off and see if the mark lines up with a gap in the castellation of the nut
4. Reset the torque wrench to the max value for the stud, which is 74 lb-ft
5. Put the socket back on, noting about how far you need to turn the nut, and turn it a bit less than you think is needed, but don't exceed the max torque value
6. Pull the socket and check, and if it isn't enough go back to Step 5 until you get it lined up

The shot on the left is at 52 lb-ft, and the shot on the right is at 60 lb-ft. This process sure saved a lot of taping and untaping - which I did on the first few nuts until I developed the process.

 

 

With that done I moved to getting the truck properly supported to accept the driveline components w/o moving, thereby ensuring that the cab will come back down from whence it came. And that meant placing the front on jack stands under the big bolt that secures the radius arm to the TTB, and jack stands under the rear axle.

It should be noted that the original plan was to put the jack stands under the very front of the frame so when we load the frame with ~1000 lbs of engine/tranny/t-case the suspension won't give and cause the frame to move. Unfortunately that plan won't work as the jack stands are then too close together to allow the shop crane's legs to go past them and under the truck.

So, back to the under-the-TTB plan for the jack stands. Got that done, which is the second step forward, and here's what it looks like:

Then I turned to the plan to lift the cab off the frame with the lift - and ran into a problem - the step backward. I don't know what I was thinking, but the arms on the lift are waaaaaay to long to just reach to the rocker panel. Here's a shot from underneath with the arms shortened by removing the extensions. Notice that the rear arm, the closest one, is dangerously close to the frame.

But, I have discovered that the truck is 3" closer to the left leg of the lift than to the right leg. So, I need to lift it up, remove the jack stands, drop it down, and roll it back and forth until I get it moved 1 1/2" right. That should allow the rear arm to easily clear the frame. I think I'll put tape on the floor to tell me where I want the tires to end up.

And, here's a shot of the "channel" that is between the rocker and the brace on the floor. It measures ~3" wide and 2" deep. So I'm going to rip 2x4's down to ~2 3/4" wide, stack two of them, and slip them in there with carpet on top of them.

Last, delivery of the flywheel/flexplate today was apparently Rock Auto's attempt at an April Fool's joke. That's ok as I didn't need it today, but perhaps it'll come tomorrow with the kit of stainless cotter keys.

This was a tiresome day. The "tired" came from rolling the truck back and forth several times in order to get it properly positioned between the lift legs. I finally got it there, but I'll confess that I failed on that many times.I'd measure and know I needed to move the truck 2 1/2" left, and then work, work, work to get it over there, only to find that exactly 2 1/2" was way too far. Then I moved it the other way - and went too far. And I think I went too far back the other way. :nabble_smiley_blush:But finally, probably by blind luck, I got it where there's ~2" of clearance between the rear lift arms and the frame, as shown below. (And, you can see my belt & braces approach to supporting the truck in front. There are jack stands under the big bolt on the TTB as well as a 2x4 under the tire. It isn't going anywhere. But more on that later.)Once the truck was in position I set about getting the jack stands under it. In the front I measured the heads of the bolts that hold the radius arm to the TTB and found that they are about 1 3/8" in diameter. I wanted to bore a hole that size in a 2x4 and put that over the head of the bolt so that the truck wouldn't be sitting on the head of that bolt and potentially slide off. Instead, the weight will be on the radius arm instead. But, not having a drill bit that diameter I decided to bore a hole in a 2x4 that size.I put the 2x4 in the vise, slipped the boring head into the spindle, and tightened the draw bar to pull the head into the taper. But, there was this sickening feel where the draw bar didn't tighten up. So I pulled the draw bar out and discovered the threads were stripped. :nabble_smiley_cry:How could that be as I've used that boring head before. But, with a little bit of inspection I found that the draw bar is supposed to be threaded 7/16-20 but the boring head is threaded 7/16-14. Bummer!After a bit of time on the phone with Grizzly I had another draw bar on order, but that left me with a boring head I couldn't use. So I welded the threads up, turned the thing down to .430", and ran a die down in. And along the way my Craftsman die cracked. But, it held together well enough to get the thing threaded and I got the job done. Now I have to paint the business end of that boring head red so I won't use it with the new draw bar when it comes in.Ok, now that the truck is sitting on jack stands fore and aft, it was time to test the theory of lifting the cab with trimmed 2x4's in the "channel". Here's a pic that shows what I'm talking about, although that's just a little piece of 2x4 where two trimmed ones will be - along with some carpeting to protect the truck:And, here's another view of the plan. But, there will be wood that spans the distance between those two arms so the force is spread over a very large area.Any suggestions? Concerns?