Fuel Injection upgrade

[grumpin]

For the record, I'd not had a single sip of my 1st cup of Java when I typed that. But now, half a cup in and with the light of day actually appearing, I still agree.

You guys are funny!

I agree, Rusty, I don’t have EFI, but have the electric pumps with the hot fuel handling. I would lose prime on my rear tank in a sweeping right turn.

I had two problems, one the connector for the oil pressure switch for the fuel pump relay was bad.

Two, my fuel pump was going out. With a new pump it hasn’t done it.

Like Gary, I would try it first.

[Rusty_S85]

I think you are trying to solve a problem you don't know that you'll have. I'd go ahead and install a stock tank and find out if you have the problem before worrying about solving it.

I know that's not my normal mode of operation, but in this case there's no obvious solution. And dropping the tank to make a change isn't all that onerous. So I think I'd go with stock components and see if you have a problem.

I can do that, I just was trying to prevent unnecessary extra work having to pull the tank a second time. I know out of every conversion we have done at work every non EFI tank without baffling has provided stalling, hesitation and laying down below 1/2 a tank due to fuel slosh.Unless the fact that the tank is stepped like it is with a mini sump under the pump assembly will act as a baffle to keep some fuel still in the area of the pump preventing this starvation at lower fuel levels.

Rusty, I have 1990 tanks on my 1986 truck (filler necks were a huge improvement) there is no baffling in the tanks of any kind, just the FDM that sits in the approximate center of each tank. If it were me, I would use the factory system for 1986 with the low pressure in-tank pumps and the reservoir/switching valve on the frame, and then the high pressure pump for your system. I have not yet run into a problem of fuel starvation, but I will switch to the rear tank if the front one is low and I will be on an extended up or down grade stretch. I did that even with the carburetor and hot fuel package, as the long 19 gal tank can easily get low enough that the gas will not reach the center.

If you are real worried about that issue, get a NASCAR style fuel cell.

You dont have the fuel reservoir on the frame do you? I am trying to avoid that by having just a single high pressure fuel pump in the tank.

I am starting to wonder if maybe the stepped design of the fuel tank with the sump where the fuel pump sits at acts as a sort of baffle be restricting fuel flow to the rear or front under acceleration or braking at lower levels. Not seeking for race car fuel control just dont want the truck to suck air and lay down and run lean on me when I am accelerating, braking, or turning at a 1/4 tank. That is my biggest concern.

You guys are funny!

I agree, Rusty, I don’t have EFI, but have the electric pumps with the hot fuel handling. I would lose prime on my rear tank in a sweeping right turn.

I had two problems, one the connector for the oil pressure switch for the fuel pump relay was bad.

Two, my fuel pump was going out. With a new pump it hasn’t done it.

Like Gary, I would try it first.

I probably will cause I probably will burn through the fuel tank trying to weld it myself and I just dont know how I could cut the tank open to get it done right and ensure there is no leaks or weakening of the fuel tank.

[85lebaront2]

I think you are trying to solve a problem you don't know that you'll have. I'd go ahead and install a stock tank and find out if you have the problem before worrying about solving it.

I know that's not my normal mode of operation, but in this case there's no obvious solution. And dropping the tank to make a change isn't all that onerous. So I think I'd go with stock components and see if you have a problem.

I can do that, I just was trying to prevent unnecessary extra work having to pull the tank a second time. I know out of every conversion we have done at work every non EFI tank without baffling has provided stalling, hesitation and laying down below 1/2 a tank due to fuel slosh.Unless the fact that the tank is stepped like it is with a mini sump under the pump assembly will act as a baffle to keep some fuel still in the area of the pump preventing this starvation at lower fuel levels.

Rusty, I have 1990 tanks on my 1986 truck (filler necks were a huge improvement) there is no baffling in the tanks of any kind, just the FDM that sits in the approximate center of each tank. If it were me, I would use the factory system for 1986 with the low pressure in-tank pumps and the reservoir/switching valve on the frame, and then the high pressure pump for your system. I have not yet run into a problem of fuel starvation, but I will switch to the rear tank if the front one is low and I will be on an extended up or down grade stretch. I did that even with the carburetor and hot fuel package, as the long 19 gal tank can easily get low enough that the gas will not reach the center.

If you are real worried about that issue, get a NASCAR style fuel cell.

You dont have the fuel reservoir on the frame do you? I am trying to avoid that by having just a single high pressure fuel pump in the tank.

I am starting to wonder if maybe the stepped design of the fuel tank with the sump where the fuel pump sits at acts as a sort of baffle be restricting fuel flow to the rear or front under acceleration or braking at lower levels. Not seeking for race car fuel control just dont want the truck to suck air and lay down and run lean on me when I am accelerating, braking, or turning at a 1/4 tank. That is my biggest concern.

You guys are funny!

I agree, Rusty, I don’t have EFI, but have the electric pumps with the hot fuel handling. I would lose prime on my rear tank in a sweeping right turn.

I had two problems, one the connector for the oil pressure switch for the fuel pump relay was bad.

Two, my fuel pump was going out. With a new pump it hasn’t done it.

Like Gary, I would try it first.

I probably will cause I probably will burn through the fuel tank trying to weld it myself and I just dont know how I could cut the tank open to get it done right and ensure there is no leaks or weakening of the fuel tank.

No, 1989 was the last year for the reservoir on the frame and separate high pressure pump. Mine has the FDMs (Fuel Distribution Modules) which act as a reserve system. Here is a picture of the internals of an FDM.

My Chrysler uses a cup in the tank with the return from the rail connected to the side making a jet to fill the cup till it overflows.

[Rusty_S85]

No, 1989 was the last year for the reservoir on the frame and separate high pressure pump. Mine has the FDMs (Fuel Distribution Modules) which act as a reserve system. Here is a picture of the internals of an FDM.

My Chrysler uses a cup in the tank with the return from the rail connected to the side making a jet to fill the cup till it overflows.

Ah ok that makes sense. I know looking up to 95 the tanks appear the same exterior wise with the stepped sump in the middle bottom of the tank.

I have been thinking about just a couple fairly short walls that I can tack weld it into the tank through the large sending unit opening. Thinking anything that slows the slosh down would help to maintain fuel level in the sump of the tank. I actually found some aluminum sheet steel in 24 ga that is preforated with thousands of small holes which would work for me but didnt see any in steel, I did find some plain sheet steel real cheap in galvanized steel which I am not sure how hard that would be to tack weld but if I can do it I was thinking just a 5 inch or so tall plate tacked to one of the steps of the sump with some cut outs to allow some flow. I could do the front and rear myself for under $20 myself it just wouldnt be a legit OE baffle how ever which is typically a tray with a metal hard line welded through the baffle to allow a controlled flow in and out. Something like that would require cutting the tank apart to do properly.

Only other thing I thought of is if there was a way to pop rivet everything through the bottom of the tank but this would have to require a sealing pop rivet which I dont know if any fuel safe options are out there.

I can also run it like it is and see how it is but the down side to this is once I put fuel in the tank I basically will have to buy another fuel tank to modify.

[85lebaront2]

Ah ok that makes sense. I know looking up to 95 the tanks appear the same exterior wise with the stepped sump in the middle bottom of the tank.

I have been thinking about just a couple fairly short walls that I can tack weld it into the tank through the large sending unit opening. Thinking anything that slows the slosh down would help to maintain fuel level in the sump of the tank. I actually found some aluminum sheet steel in 24 ga that is preforated with thousands of small holes which would work for me but didnt see any in steel, I did find some plain sheet steel real cheap in galvanized steel which I am not sure how hard that would be to tack weld but if I can do it I was thinking just a 5 inch or so tall plate tacked to one of the steps of the sump with some cut outs to allow some flow. I could do the front and rear myself for under $20 myself it just wouldnt be a legit OE baffle how ever which is typically a tray with a metal hard line welded through the baffle to allow a controlled flow in and out. Something like that would require cutting the tank apart to do properly.

Only other thing I thought of is if there was a way to pop rivet everything through the bottom of the tank but this would have to require a sealing pop rivet which I dont know if any fuel safe options are out there.

I can also run it like it is and see how it is but the down side to this is once I put fuel in the tank I basically will have to buy another fuel tank to modify.

Rusty, a couple of questions. I assume the Holley Sniper uses their pump. I don't know what pressure/volume it needs but, some thoughts (a) could the Holley pump be installed into a Ford 1990 up FDM? (b) would the Ford pump supply adequate pressure/volume for the Holley System?

If both of those are no, then, can you insert a decent size can into a 1990 up tank through the FDM access? Using the return line to siphon fuel into the can so that it is overflowing even with a low fuel level. This is what Chrysler did when they introduced EFI in 1983 as it only required a change to the bottom of the tank, the plastic reservoir was crimped to the tank bottom and an extra access hole was added for the electric pump, the same sender as the carbureted system was retained and the fuel return is there. It goes through a check valve on the side of the reservoir where it picks up fuel to overflow the reservoir. The can could be loaded into position with springs pushing against the top of the tank.

Some of the guys with modified Turbo engines are using a Walbro 255 GPH pump in the stock hanger. My static fuel pressure is 55 psi rising under boost to 70 psi.

[Rusty_S85]

Rusty, a couple of questions. I assume the Holley Sniper uses their pump. I don't know what pressure/volume it needs but, some thoughts (a) could the Holley pump be installed into a Ford 1990 up FDM? (b) would the Ford pump supply adequate pressure/volume for the Holley System?

If both of those are no, then, can you insert a decent size can into a 1990 up tank through the FDM access? Using the return line to siphon fuel into the can so that it is overflowing even with a low fuel level. This is what Chrysler did when they introduced EFI in 1983 as it only required a change to the bottom of the tank, the plastic reservoir was crimped to the tank bottom and an extra access hole was added for the electric pump, the same sender as the carbureted system was retained and the fuel return is there. It goes through a check valve on the side of the reservoir where it picks up fuel to overflow the reservoir. The can could be loaded into position with springs pushing against the top of the tank.

Some of the guys with modified Turbo engines are using a Walbro 255 GPH pump in the stock hanger. My static fuel pressure is 55 psi rising under boost to 70 psi.

Holley gives with their sniper kits a generic frame mounted pump. I didnt buy the kit with fuel pump as I have seen way too many people stating these supplied frame mounted pumps failed with in the first year.

The pumps how ever Holley states they need 50 psi and 255 lph/67gph. Realistically the instructions states 45 to 55 psi with 50 psi being ideal. Why I selected the Corvette Fuel Filter that I have put up for my filter/regulator the built in regulator is 49.5 PSI so basically 50 psi. Pump I have picked out initially is the GSS342BX Walbro with a 11mm inlet for $89.99 which would accept the Hydramat I am looking at the 3" x 15" for some $180. If the Hydramat would last 10 years for me I would consider just doing that but still $180 every 10 years just seems pricy compared to regular socks lasting till the electric pump finally fails.

If Dakota Digital would release the RTX Retro I could go with a FDM tank and pump/sender and go into the calibration and input the FDM sender specs to make the gauge read right. Might be something I upgrade to down the road.

Holley sells a retrofit fuel pump/sender assembly for OEM fuel tanks that has a pivoting fuel pump on a OE like sender with the Holly Hydramat for pickup. Thats why part of me wonders about longevity but no one has said how lone they truly last in a street vehicle, Ive seen Holley listed 5 to 10 year life span and one magazine article stated 6 years or 60,000 miles for an average vehicle

[85lebaront2]

Rusty, a couple of questions. I assume the Holley Sniper uses their pump. I don't know what pressure/volume it needs but, some thoughts (a) could the Holley pump be installed into a Ford 1990 up FDM? (b) would the Ford pump supply adequate pressure/volume for the Holley System?

If both of those are no, then, can you insert a decent size can into a 1990 up tank through the FDM access? Using the return line to siphon fuel into the can so that it is overflowing even with a low fuel level. This is what Chrysler did when they introduced EFI in 1983 as it only required a change to the bottom of the tank, the plastic reservoir was crimped to the tank bottom and an extra access hole was added for the electric pump, the same sender as the carbureted system was retained and the fuel return is there. It goes through a check valve on the side of the reservoir where it picks up fuel to overflow the reservoir. The can could be loaded into position with springs pushing against the top of the tank.

Some of the guys with modified Turbo engines are using a Walbro 255 GPH pump in the stock hanger. My static fuel pressure is 55 psi rising under boost to 70 psi.

Holley gives with their sniper kits a generic frame mounted pump. I didnt buy the kit with fuel pump as I have seen way too many people stating these supplied frame mounted pumps failed with in the first year.

The pumps how ever Holley states they need 50 psi and 255 lph/67gph. Realistically the instructions states 45 to 55 psi with 50 psi being ideal. Why I selected the Corvette Fuel Filter that I have put up for my filter/regulator the built in regulator is 49.5 PSI so basically 50 psi. Pump I have picked out initially is the GSS342BX Walbro with a 11mm inlet for $89.99 which would accept the Hydramat I am looking at the 3" x 15" for some $180. If the Hydramat would last 10 years for me I would consider just doing that but still $180 every 10 years just seems pricy compared to regular socks lasting till the electric pump finally fails.

If Dakota Digital would release the RTX Retro I could go with a FDM tank and pump/sender and go into the calibration and input the FDM sender specs to make the gauge read right. Might be something I upgrade to down the road.

Holley sells a retrofit fuel pump/sender assembly for OEM fuel tanks that has a pivoting fuel pump on a OE like sender with the Holly Hydramat for pickup. Thats why part of me wonders about longevity but no one has said how lone they truly last in a street vehicle, Ive seen Holley listed 5 to 10 year life span and one magazine article stated 6 years or 60,000 miles for an average vehicle

Ok, the Walbro some of the Chrysler Turbo guys are using might do what you need. Let me see what I can find on PNs and detailed specs. It might be 255 L/Hr then. Like I said, my static pressure is 55 psi.

[Rusty_S85]

Ok, the Walbro some of the Chrysler Turbo guys are using might do what you need. Let me see what I can find on PNs and detailed specs. It might be 255 L/Hr then. Like I said, my static pressure is 55 psi.

I was looking at the 90-96 pump modules apparently there was a 255 L/Hr pump but I cant find it on rockauto found it on amazon under part number HFP-A27H. Its stated its used on the lightning trucks.

Rockauto lists a HP1060A as a high performance fuel pump for the 90-96 pump modules but it states max flow is 57.5 gph and min of 48.3 gph which is less than the 255l/hr which is 67 gph. Im sure 10gph less than recommended by holley would cause a problem, but it would limit the power the sniper is capable of supporting and it will require tweaking the computer via laptop to change the settings on the fuel pump.

Right now I am really entertaining the whole hydramat and seeing how long I can get before I need to replace it. Maybe buy two keep one put up so when the truck starts acting up I can swap it out and make note of how long. At least this wouldnt require modifying the tank risking fuel leaks, it wont require installing a newer tank/module with a different pump rating than what Holley recommends along with having to wait till Dakota Digital releases the RTX retro cluster for our trucks which would easily open up newer fuel pump modules.

[Rusty_S85]

Ok, the Walbro some of the Chrysler Turbo guys are using might do what you need. Let me see what I can find on PNs and detailed specs. It might be 255 L/Hr then. Like I said, my static pressure is 55 psi.

I was looking at the 90-96 pump modules apparently there was a 255 L/Hr pump but I cant find it on rockauto found it on amazon under part number HFP-A27H. Its stated its used on the lightning trucks.

Rockauto lists a HP1060A as a high performance fuel pump for the 90-96 pump modules but it states max flow is 57.5 gph and min of 48.3 gph which is less than the 255l/hr which is 67 gph. Im sure 10gph less than recommended by holley would cause a problem, but it would limit the power the sniper is capable of supporting and it will require tweaking the computer via laptop to change the settings on the fuel pump.

Right now I am really entertaining the whole hydramat and seeing how long I can get before I need to replace it. Maybe buy two keep one put up so when the truck starts acting up I can swap it out and make note of how long. At least this wouldnt require modifying the tank risking fuel leaks, it wont require installing a newer tank/module with a different pump rating than what Holley recommends along with having to wait till Dakota Digital releases the RTX retro cluster for our trucks which would easily open up newer fuel pump modules.

For those that have the Eastwood vice mount flaring tool, they offer a AN flare turret and die set for some $130 to convert your inverted flare tool to a AN flare tool. I found on amazon when looking that Inline Tube has one now as well, identical in looks just the Inline Tube logo on it but will work with the Eastwood tool as its all the same and it was under $100 to boot as well. So I ordered that to have it on hand for when I start bending my fuel line for my Sniper Stealth.

So to restate the fuel system this is my current plans with some tweaks from the original plan.

I will still be getting the Inline Tube SFRF8001 Stainless steel main fuel line for Ford trucks 2wd long beds in 3/8" size. This will be longer than I need for my short bed flareside truck but all I need is the forward part of the hardline. Hopefully the OE 5/16" fuel line clips can be used to hold the 3/8" fuel line as I will be carefully pulling my OE 5/16" fuel line and placing it up in storage.

The bulk tubing I am looking at is the same CL3820 which is Inline Tubes Annealed Stainless steel tubing coil in 3/8" size in a 20ft length. Also stated its 0.028" wall thickness which I am waiting to hear back from Inline on what the pressure rating of this tubing is. Im pretty confident that it is in excess of the 60 PSI my fuel system will be operating at.

Where my plan is changing is I found that Inline also sells stainless spring wraps that goes on hardlines in high risk areas where the hardline may rub. Im looking at their SID38-8 which is a 8ft length of 3/8" stainless steel spring wrap. I think this would be great to put on the hardline along the front of the engine where it will be close to the factory powersteering pump bracket and the dealer AC compressor bracket. It wont touch as I will make sure it has some clearance I feel safer having it as an added layer of defense to protect my fuel system against failures especially failures that could dump fuel over hot exhaust starting a fire.

Plan for this currently is to shape the hardline as close to OE as possible but I know I will have to make tweaks in the routing to account for changes between OE and how the system will be now. My idea is still to rigidly mount the fuel line to one of the bolts holding the block off plate to the timing cover. This would keep the fuel line from moving as well as having a stable point for the rubber flex hose between the main line and the engine. Im still looking at ideas for a plumbing point that looks like a mechanical fuel pump, I think it would be way easier to have a simulated fuel pump to hook the lines up to that just simply flows the fuel from one port to the other. Only option I know of to do this would be to buy some cheapie mechanical aftermarket pump and gut it but I fear doing this as a mechanical fuel pump could fail in such a way that fuel is pumped into the engine through the lever. That would be a disaster with an electric fuel pump pumping out 255 LPH. I would have to look at photos of some holley or edelbrock mechanical fuel pumps on their internal layout there is a possibility of linking the inlet and outlet ports via a hardline to eliminate the risk of leaking internally into the engine but not sure how one would do that before bolting the two halves back together unless you chop out the under side to reach the points but then that negates the purpose of looking OE.

I think I will just go with a mounting clamp just havent decided what kind of clamp would look good. I still how ever have time for that, I havent received my short block yet and I still got a lot of work ahead of me before I am at a finished running product. Then there is the next big question which is the brakes, Do I trust them after sitting a few years or redo them. Im thinking trust them cause when I started driving the truck daily it spent more time sitting than driving and it never had a problem. I also need to get in touch with who will be doing my tuning and see what he recommends for the tuning on if I should do it now or wait till after I do the transmission and axle ratio change.

[85lebaront2]

For those that have the Eastwood vice mount flaring tool, they offer a AN flare turret and die set for some $130 to convert your inverted flare tool to a AN flare tool. I found on amazon when looking that Inline Tube has one now as well, identical in looks just the Inline Tube logo on it but will work with the Eastwood tool as its all the same and it was under $100 to boot as well. So I ordered that to have it on hand for when I start bending my fuel line for my Sniper Stealth.

So to restate the fuel system this is my current plans with some tweaks from the original plan.

I will still be getting the Inline Tube SFRF8001 Stainless steel main fuel line for Ford trucks 2wd long beds in 3/8" size. This will be longer than I need for my short bed flareside truck but all I need is the forward part of the hardline. Hopefully the OE 5/16" fuel line clips can be used to hold the 3/8" fuel line as I will be carefully pulling my OE 5/16" fuel line and placing it up in storage.

The bulk tubing I am looking at is the same CL3820 which is Inline Tubes Annealed Stainless steel tubing coil in 3/8" size in a 20ft length. Also stated its 0.028" wall thickness which I am waiting to hear back from Inline on what the pressure rating of this tubing is. Im pretty confident that it is in excess of the 60 PSI my fuel system will be operating at.

Where my plan is changing is I found that Inline also sells stainless spring wraps that goes on hardlines in high risk areas where the hardline may rub. Im looking at their SID38-8 which is a 8ft length of 3/8" stainless steel spring wrap. I think this would be great to put on the hardline along the front of the engine where it will be close to the factory powersteering pump bracket and the dealer AC compressor bracket. It wont touch as I will make sure it has some clearance I feel safer having it as an added layer of defense to protect my fuel system against failures especially failures that could dump fuel over hot exhaust starting a fire.

Plan for this currently is to shape the hardline as close to OE as possible but I know I will have to make tweaks in the routing to account for changes between OE and how the system will be now. My idea is still to rigidly mount the fuel line to one of the bolts holding the block off plate to the timing cover. This would keep the fuel line from moving as well as having a stable point for the rubber flex hose between the main line and the engine. Im still looking at ideas for a plumbing point that looks like a mechanical fuel pump, I think it would be way easier to have a simulated fuel pump to hook the lines up to that just simply flows the fuel from one port to the other. Only option I know of to do this would be to buy some cheapie mechanical aftermarket pump and gut it but I fear doing this as a mechanical fuel pump could fail in such a way that fuel is pumped into the engine through the lever. That would be a disaster with an electric fuel pump pumping out 255 LPH. I would have to look at photos of some holley or edelbrock mechanical fuel pumps on their internal layout there is a possibility of linking the inlet and outlet ports via a hardline to eliminate the risk of leaking internally into the engine but not sure how one would do that before bolting the two halves back together unless you chop out the under side to reach the points but then that negates the purpose of looking OE.

I think I will just go with a mounting clamp just havent decided what kind of clamp would look good. I still how ever have time for that, I havent received my short block yet and I still got a lot of work ahead of me before I am at a finished running product. Then there is the next big question which is the brakes, Do I trust them after sitting a few years or redo them. Im thinking trust them cause when I started driving the truck daily it spent more time sitting than driving and it never had a problem. I also need to get in touch with who will be doing my tuning and see what he recommends for the tuning on if I should do it now or wait till after I do the transmission and axle ratio change.

Rusty, if the mechanical pump is just going to be a dummy, a couple of thoughts. Ford had a pump with an integral canister filter (it was replaceable) that might be a possibility. On using a dummy for fuel to pass through, if you can find one of the older pumps that screw together it would be easy to gut it, replace the diaphragm with a plate and gaskets and if it has the telltale "weep" hole, block it so oil won't come out.