Stick vs Auto

[Vic Roma]

I certainly plan to save the website for posterity. Both of my kids know how important it is to me, so I'm sure they will preserve it. And one of the many reasons I want to move it to Wordpress is the ease with which it can be backed up.

Anyway, before we can answer your questions we need to know a bit more about what you want to do with the vehicle. You mentioned "heavy hauling". How much of that, and how heavy do you plan to do?

For heavy hauling you need torque in the engine. To me, that leaves the 302 out. And while the 300 Six can probably tow anything, it won't necessarily do it easily. So I wouldn't go with anything smaller than a 351W. (A 351M can be made to be as strong as a 351W, but if you are building one you really ought to make it a 400.) So that leaves the 400, 460, and IDI. But even the IDI w/o a turbo isn't going to tow very rapidly.

But, you also mentioned cruising. Are you thinking long distance or just short trips to enjoy the truck? If there's going to be much long-distance cruising, the 460 isn't the best.

Back to manual transmissions. Big Blue has had a T19 from birth. And Rusty, the '81 F150 w/a built 351M, had an NP435. And while they are stout transmissions, the lack of an overdrive makes them very poor for cruising. But the ZF5 is a truck transmission, and even one with good syncro's doesn't like to be shifted rapidly. So you need to think about what your needs and wants are. If you aren't going to "tow heavy" then maybe one of the lighter-duty OD transmissions?

As for the auto, I'm not a C6 fan. Yes, they are stout. But they are thirsty. With three speeds, no overdrive, and no lockup torque converter they are not cruising-friendly. So that probably means E4OD, but that takes a computer to control it.

Gary, to answer your questions:

I mentioned "heavy hauling" but I do not do much of it, weight-wise. So far, it’s been around 3,000 lbs in a dump trailer, and I don’t see more in my immediate future. That said, I am itching to buy a good F-350 460 4x4 for work, and leave the Bronco for play and preservation.

Sticking with the Bronco, I’d like to drop in a 351W (with some performance mods), and I’d like the motor/gb combination to feel alive, with foot-down immediate pickup akin to modern cars. Perhaps a tall order for an old engine (not ready for brand new crate engine) so would like a very capable all rounder package that can haul around 3-5k lbs, and have the speed to accelerate and keep up with fast-flowing traffic.

As for stick v auto, as a city dweller, stick shifting in traffic is not fun, even without a hip transplant. But I appreciate the sportiness of manual gear changes, too. Maybe a new gearbox with flappy-paddles will sort out the conundrum. Huh, what happened to the budget?

[Vic Roma]

Gary, to answer your questions:

I mentioned "heavy hauling" but I do not do much of it, weight-wise. So far, it’s been around 3,000 lbs in a dump trailer, and I don’t see more in my immediate future. That said, I am itching to buy a good F-350 460 4x4 for work, and leave the Bronco for play and preservation.

Sticking with the Bronco, I’d like to drop in a 351W (with some performance mods), and I’d like the motor/gb combination to feel alive, with foot-down immediate pickup akin to modern cars. Perhaps a tall order for an old engine (not ready for brand new crate engine) so would like a very capable all rounder package that can haul around 3-5k lbs, and have the speed to accelerate and keep up with fast-flowing traffic.

As for stick v auto, as a city dweller, stick shifting in traffic is not fun, even without a hip transplant. But I appreciate the sportiness of manual gear changes, too. Maybe a new gearbox with flappy-paddles will sort out the conundrum. Huh, what happened to the budget?

And thanks to all for your responses. Just the kind of knowledge that lies dormant waiting to be tapped.

[Gary Lewis]

Gary, to answer your questions:

I mentioned "heavy hauling" but I do not do much of it, weight-wise. So far, it’s been around 3,000 lbs in a dump trailer, and I don’t see more in my immediate future. That said, I am itching to buy a good F-350 460 4x4 for work, and leave the Bronco for play and preservation.

Sticking with the Bronco, I’d like to drop in a 351W (with some performance mods), and I’d like the motor/gb combination to feel alive, with foot-down immediate pickup akin to modern cars. Perhaps a tall order for an old engine (not ready for brand new crate engine) so would like a very capable all rounder package that can haul around 3-5k lbs, and have the speed to accelerate and keep up with fast-flowing traffic.

As for stick v auto, as a city dweller, stick shifting in traffic is not fun, even without a hip transplant. But I appreciate the sportiness of manual gear changes, too. Maybe a new gearbox with flappy-paddles will sort out the conundrum. Huh, what happened to the budget?

I'm glad you said F350 4x4 and not F250 4x4. As I said recently somewhere, were I looking for a heavy-duty "work" 4x4 truck it would be an 85 or 86 F350. That would give you a solid front axle and reasonable suspension.

As for an "alive" combination, one tranny we didn't mention is the AOD. As originally built they weren't stout and Ford never put them behind a 351W in these trucks. But, I'm told that you can have them built to stand up to lots of power. I've not done it so I can't say for sure, but if so then it might work for the Bronco. And that would give you the overdrive as well as straight-through power transmission w/o the loss of a torque converter.

[Vic Roma]

I'm glad you said F350 4x4 and not F250 4x4. As I said recently somewhere, were I looking for a heavy-duty "work" 4x4 truck it would be an 85 or 86 F350. That would give you a solid front axle and reasonable suspension.

As for an "alive" combination, one tranny we didn't mention is the AOD. As originally built they weren't stout and Ford never put them behind a 351W in these trucks. But, I'm told that you can have them built to stand up to lots of power. I've not done it so I can't say for sure, but if so then it might work for the Bronco. And that would give you the overdrive as well as straight-through power transmission w/o the loss of a torque converter.

Which is what I have now. It shifts fine, even under load, but it’s not a sudden blast on the highway. Sounds like a Carter 1H siren, it takes while to get going.

[Whisler]

That’s the one thing I really dislike about the C6, you can’t torque it up a hill. Being a three speed it almost scares me when it downshifts!

Au contraire! If you remove the kickdown linkage on the C6 it won't downshift until you pull it down with the shift lever. I ran Rusty that way for several years 'cause I was too cheap to invest in the Edelbrock adapter to fit the linkage to the carb. Then I got to liking it and didn't want to change.

Thought about doing that, but like the quick downshift in lower speed situations. May try it someday.

When I bought Frankenstein (before it really was one) it was a 302/M5OD and I hated driving it. I was 70+ years old and my knees were not so good. It had no guts and needed to be rowed around. Backing up a incline was near impossible with reverse gear in the trans.

Fast forward to the swap 351/C6 from my dearly departed 84. Now I like to drive it. The C6 has a shift kit and a Hurst Pro-matic 2 shifter. If a shift is needed in either direction it is there with the flick of the wrist. Kickdown lever was omitted with the Edelbrock install.

[Nothing Special]

.... But I appreciate the sportiness of manual gear changes, too....

There aren't many sporty options for manual transmissions in 4WD vehicles, especially 3/4 - 1 tons. Most truck manuals shift like, well, like truck transmissions. So for sporty you might actually be better off with an auto (and coming from me, that's saying something!).

There are plenty of sporty manuals that can handle the kind of power and torque these engines put out (even well-built versions like Dad's Truck is getting). But they are from the sporty car market, so you can't bolt a transfer case to any of them. That still allows for a divorce-mount transfer case if you want to go that way. Personally I just give up on the "sporty" and hope for something that at least doesn't shift terrible.

[Ray Cecil]

Well, since my name was invoked I guess I need to add my input. First, I have driven a lot of different vehicles in my life, from little econo-boxes to USMC trucks. Even when I was a lot younger I hated getting stuck in heavy, slow moving traffic with a manual transmission, even the relatively light clutches on the Alfa-Romeo 5 speed column shift or the Omni and Horizon, or even my 1961 Mercedes-Benz 220Sb. In a performance vehicle, such as my 1966 GT350 or my best friend's 2000 Corvette 6 speed, much worse.

For control, yes, a manual transmission is great, performance driving, running back roads etc. Crawling around in the sand dunes at Little Creek Amphibious base in a 1960s USMC M37B1 (4 speed with a granny low and only 3 & 4 synchronized) I learned the 1st in high transfer case was the same as 2nd low transfer case and got very adept at double clutching.

My first car was a 1964 V8 (not a Sprint) Falcon with a 3 speed column shift, when I started towing my boat I ended up converting it from a 4 speed Borg-Warner T10 to a well modified C4. The first automatic transmission car I owned was a 1963 Oldsmobile Jetfire I added to the Shelby as more of a DD in bad weather because it had an interesting AC system that could be run along with the defroster (they were completely separate units) to help defog windows.

First pickup was a 1958 F100, 223 six and 3 speed, even after I put the 312 in it it was still a 3 speed, just now a B-W T85 with OD. The 1977 F150 was a 300 six and C4 (not a strong combination) it ended up with a 390 and C6. Darth came with a carbureted 460 and C6, towed great, but even with the 3.55 rear ran a lot of RPM at 55 with a load behind (2700 rpm). Now EFI 460 and E4OD, same conditions, rpm in 3rd with the converter clutch unlocked, 2700, clutch lock in, 2200.

As Gary mentioned, the E4OD is controlled by the PCM, and with the EEC-V Ford, for government mandated update requirements (PCM can be reflashed with software updates eliminating the need for a complete replacement) has the means to update the program without replacing the PCM as was needed on the earlier systems. I (and Gary) have the software and hardware to do this, it takes about 15 mins to do a reflash. I have my torque converter clutch unlock set at 80% throttle or just about where a forced downshift will occur. I let the system work like a manual transmission in that respect, letting the torque of the 460 do the work as the torque converter is the biggest heat source and is the reason for the stock E4ODs bad reputation as far as failures go.

You old retired guys are so long winded....

I prefer manual trans. Because MERICA'!!

[85lebaront2]

You old retired guys are so long winded....

I prefer manual trans. Because MERICA'!!

That's because we have way more experience than you young whippersnappers

[Gary Lewis]

That's because we have way more experience than you young whippersnappers

Amen, brother!

[Ray Cecil]

That's because we have way more experience than you young whippersnappers

If I was retired, Id spend all my time in a garage like Gary too.

Im being pulled in 20 directions right now. Im lucky to sneak in a few minutes here and there for Garys website. I actually get up 15 minutes earlier than usual so I can sip a cup of coffee and catch the latest threads on here before heading off to work.