85lebaront2 Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 The signal from it goes to the...ICM on the base of the distributor - not to the EEC. The best diagnostic procedure for TFI-IV '85-93 is Haynes Ch.5 (usually Sec.5 or 7, depending on edition). https://supermotors.net/getfile/449785/thumbnail/hayneses.jpg Steve, ICM was moved from the base of the distributor to the inside rear of the left front fender starting in 1990 due to engine heat causing failures. On the EEC-IV the PIP (profile Ignition Pickup) goes from the distributor to the EEC, then is returned to the ICM via the SPOUT wire. With the SPOUT disconnected the system reverts to triggering of the leading edge of the shutter in the distributor. For further information, there are actually two signals that come from the PIP, one is a leading edge trigger which is a crank pulse since it occurs X times per distributor revolution, where X = number of cylinders. The second is vane width pulse, which is a cam position pulse. The narrow vane on the TFI/EFI distributors is for number 1 cylinder. On most truck systems this isn't super critical as it fires the bank one injectors, bank two being fired 180° later I believe. On a sequential injection system, such as the later Windsor and 300 engines use, it starts the firing order sequence for the injectors. This is why "clocking" the plug wires to correct an improper distributor installation is not a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve83 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 ...inside rear of the left front fender starting in 1990...I haven't worked on many '90-91 trucks, so I'm not sure about that. I've always known WHY it moved, but I thought it moved in '92. Haynes seems to agree with you, though.On the EEC-IV the PIP (profile Ignition Pickup) goes from the distributor to the...ICM. Every time, in all ignition systems that have a separate ICM of any kind. And you're confusing the functionality of the early TFI-IV push-start SPOUT with that of the later TFI-IV CCD SPOUT. This caption explains both systems, and why the change occurred: https://supermotors.net/getfile/833750/thumbnail/distributor9296.jpg I've never studied the firing of bank-fired injectors in detail, but I always assumed each bank was fired each time ONE of its cylinders was on the intake stroke (intake valve open). Next time I have a noid light handy, I'll try to remember to check how many times it flashes if I spin the distributor once. I know there's an index vane on the PIP wheel, but I've never read anything that says the ICM does anything with it, including sending that index on the SPOUT to tell an EEC-IV when it's on cyl. 1. But that might be another reason for the switch to CCD, which DOES send the falling edge to the EEC - so it can fire sequential injectors. I'm just not sure about push-start. I do know that I can't detect any difference from behind the wheel running a CCD truck on a push-start ICM; nor on a push-start truck running a CCD ICM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 ...inside rear of the left front fender starting in 1990...I haven't worked on many '90-91 trucks, so I'm not sure about that. I've always known WHY it moved, but I thought it moved in '92. Haynes seems to agree with you, though.On the EEC-IV the PIP (profile Ignition Pickup) goes from the distributor to the...ICM. Every time, in all ignition systems that have a separate ICM of any kind. And you're confusing the functionality of the early TFI-IV push-start SPOUT with that of the later TFI-IV CCD SPOUT. This caption explains both systems, and why the change occurred: https://supermotors.net/getfile/833750/thumbnail/distributor9296.jpg I've never studied the firing of bank-fired injectors in detail, but I always assumed each bank was fired each time ONE of its cylinders was on the intake stroke (intake valve open). Next time I have a noid light handy, I'll try to remember to check how many times it flashes if I spin the distributor once. I know there's an index vane on the PIP wheel, but I've never read anything that says the ICM does anything with it, including sending that index on the SPOUT to tell an EEC-IV when it's on cyl. 1. But that might be another reason for the switch to CCD, which DOES send the falling edge to the EEC - so it can fire sequential injectors. I'm just not sure about push-start. I do know that I can't detect any difference from behind the wheel running a CCD truck on a push-start ICM; nor on a push-start truck running a CCD ICM. Steve, I am very familiar with the different varieties of Ford ICMs, if you look at the diagrams, yes, EEC-IV systems through 1994 used the "push start" ICM, starting in 1995 the CCD system was introduced. On all the Ford EFI systems on trucks the PIP signal goes to the ICM, but, the EEC also receives the signal so the spark advance can be established. Essentially the EEC takes the previous pulse and delays it to the proper advance for the next cylinder. The EEC is using the RPM to determine the number of milliseconds the pulse through the SPOUT wire needs to be delayed. Example, cyl #1 pulse is received, next cylinder in order is #5, so desired advance is 35° #1 is 90° ahead of #5, SPOUT signal needs to go out 55° after the #1 PIP signal. The "push start" uses a signal from circuit 32 (R/LB) to tell the ICM to use the maximum dwell for a hot cranking spark. In 1995 this terminal on the ICM (pin 4 on all) became IDM out from Start Signal In. These are easily identified by color, gray ICMs are "push start" and black ICMs are CCD and both distributor and remote mount styles were made. TFI_5.bmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDav782 Posted September 23, 2019 Author Share Posted September 23, 2019 Steve, I am very familiar with the different varieties of Ford ICMs, if you look at the diagrams, yes, EEC-IV systems through 1994 used the "push start" ICM, starting in 1995 the CCD system was introduced. On all the Ford EFI systems on trucks the PIP signal goes to the ICM, but, the EEC also receives the signal so the spark advance can be established. Essentially the EEC takes the previous pulse and delays it to the proper advance for the next cylinder. The EEC is using the RPM to determine the number of milliseconds the pulse through the SPOUT wire needs to be delayed. Example, cyl #1 pulse is received, next cylinder in order is #5, so desired advance is 35° #1 is 90° ahead of #5, SPOUT signal needs to go out 55° after the #1 PIP signal. The "push start" uses a signal from circuit 32 (R/LB) to tell the ICM to use the maximum dwell for a hot cranking spark. In 1995 this terminal on the ICM (pin 4 on all) became IDM out from Start Signal In. These are easily identified by color, gray ICMs are "push start" and black ICMs are CCD and both distributor and remote mount styles were made. Knowing that my dizzy needs to be replaced, and the carburetor needs to be rebuilt...is it time to just do the duraspark conversion? Is there a write up anywhere on this or just lots of reading through various posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve83 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 ...starting in 1995 the CCD system was introduced...No, it appeared in 5.0L trucks mid-year of '93, as that diagram shows.Essentially the EEC takes the previous pulse and delays it...That's not how Ford says it works.These are easily identified by color, gray ICMs are "push start" and black ICMs are CCD...That does NOT apply to all aftermarket ICMs. Some makers just molded them all in gray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 ...starting in 1995 the CCD system was introduced...No, it appeared in 5.0L trucks mid-year of '93, as that diagram shows.Essentially the EEC takes the previous pulse and delays it...That's not how Ford says it works.These are easily identified by color, gray ICMs are "push start" and black ICMs are CCD...That does NOT apply to all aftermarket ICMs. Some makers just molded them all in gray. I will put it this way, (a) you are correct as far as I can tell on the introduction on the 5.0L. (b) I am quoting what I was told by Core Tuning as regards to my EEC-V system. © I was only referring to Motorcraft as I personally have had some bad experiences with aftermarket ICMs. So tell me how does an ignition PIP generated at 10° BTDC get moved to 35° BTDC? Time machine maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve83 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 So tell me how...?I already did, years before you asked. It's in that caption. If you want to know, read it. EEC-V is very different from EEC-IV. Most EEC-V doesn't even use an ICM; they're mostly COP. Some of the VERY-early ones were EDIS, and I think only the '96 F/Bronco was EEC-V (compliant, though not really) TFI-IV. I'm not sure about E-series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85lebaront2 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 So tell me how...?I already did, years before you asked. It's in that caption. If you want to know, read it. EEC-V is very different from EEC-IV. Most EEC-V doesn't even use an ICM; they're mostly COP. Some of the VERY-early ones were EDIS, and I think only the '96 F/Bronco was EEC-V (compliant, though not really) TFI-IV. I'm not sure about E-series. If the 1996 Bronco was under 8500 GVWR it would have been OBD-II compliant. There are a lot of the early EEC-V systems out there that still used a distributor. Any F or E series under 8500 GVWR that still used any of the older engines (4.9L, 5.0L or 5.8L) built for the 1996 up MY would be EEC-V. The over 8500 GVWR trucks could (and many were) be OBD-I and still using the EEC-IV system, however, California set the break point at 14000 GVWR which gives those of us with the 7.5L (460) a source of parts (scarce) and wiring + an MAF size to do what I did. I was told by a fellow on FTE that they were a "unicorn" to which I replied "I have your unicorn" and posted this picture: That is an actual California F250/350 7.5L/E4OD EEC-V for MAF/SEFI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 If the 1996 Bronco was under 8500 GVWR it would have been OBD-II compliant. There are a lot of the early EEC-V systems out there that still used a distributor. Any F or E series under 8500 GVWR that still used any of the older engines (4.9L, 5.0L or 5.8L) built for the 1996 up MY would be EEC-V. The over 8500 GVWR trucks could (and many were) be OBD-I and still using the EEC-IV system, however, California set the break point at 14000 GVWR which gives those of us with the 7.5L (460) a source of parts (scarce) and wiring + an MAF size to do what I did. I was told by a fellow on FTE that they were a "unicorn" to which I replied "I have your unicorn" and posted this picture: That is an actual California F250/350 7.5L/E4OD EEC-V for MAF/SEFI. Yep, what Bill said. I have a '96 CA-spec 460 EFI setup that is complete save for the ECU in Bill's pic. Not COP, but OBD-II compliant - complete with the OBD-II connector. Instead of the CA ECU I have an EEC-V MAF/SEFI ECU that was originally for a 5.8L. But it has been tweaked by myself as well as Core Tuning to believe it is for a 7.5L. EGR is turned off and other tweaks have been made. It'll be running Big Blue some time next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve83 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 There are a lot of the early EEC-V systems out there that still used a distributor. Any F or E series under 8500 GVWR that still used any of the older engines (4.9L, 5.0L or 5.8L) built for the 1996 up MY would be EEC-V.I always forget about the heavy trucks that kept the older F-series parts into the '00s. The '95-97 diesels were originally EEC-IV (no ignition, obviously) with the underhood DLC and the underdash OBD-II-compliant DLC, and most have been flashed to to be OBD-II exclusively now. That's what I mean about the early EEC-Vs not really being the same as the later ones, including the '96 1/2-tons that came off the line as EEC-V, and meeting the early requirements, but not being true EEC-V/OBD-II as they're commonly known today. Obviously the diesels can be flashed, but I don't think the '96 gas engines <8500GVWR can be. IDK about your heavy '96 EEC-Vs; have you tried flashing it yet? https://supermotors.net/getfile/892730/thumbnail/eecconnectors.jpg In any case: BigDav782 needs to follow the Haynes diagnostic procedure I mentioned earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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