still a no start, a little life, but wont stay running

[jstone4646]

Ok let me detail as much as possible here so I do not miss anything, and again the help you guys have provided so far is fantastic.

I have set the timing on the truck and know for sure I am on compression stroke cylinder 1, 10BTDC.

I filled the float bowls manually and she sort of ran....by sort of I mean stuttered erratically to stay alive for maybe 15 seconds then died. She was not fully engaged, I mean this sucker was limping and grasping to stay on. This is, and pulling the fuel line and attempting to crank is what led me to believe the fuel pump was faulty. I replaced the pump today without any issue, and still the same symptom.

So here is what I have right at this moment.

-Set timing again to 10BTDC

-Spun the cap to point directly at 1

-Verified firing order

-New rotor button

-New Plugs and wires

-New Voltage Regulator

-Spark verified

-Fuel NOT verified (cant get her running long enough to prime the system, but if she wont run worth a crap manually filling the float bowls I would suspect fuel is not my priority at the moment anyways)

She cranks fine, and acts like she wants to start when I use starter fluid but will not catch at all, just kind of sputters a little. Occasionally she will burp out of the carb, when she tries to light off with either fuel in the carb or starter fluid I can hear a little backfire out of the exhaust.

So I have five thoughts:

1. I still have a fuel delivery problem (leaning away from this one because with manually filled bowls it still runs like crap)

2. A slipped/stretched timing chain/timing is not correct even though I have verified 10BTDC

3. Possibly a bad distributor (I have no idea on this one)

4. Carburetor issue (maybe a rebuild is in order?)

5. Bad ignition module???

A little more back story, she was running great one day (like they all do) then started backfiring and popping really bad AFTER I attempted to reset the timing (but she still started!). While she was running and popping like crazy I adjusted the carb using a vacuum gauge (had her around 16-17 on the gauge). I moved her back into the garage popping like crazy, shut her down, and she has not started since then.

The only exception is when I manually fill the fuel bowl and she stutters horribly for all of 15 seconds.

Thanks yet again in advance guys! Starting to think its time to get a pro involved, but I am no where near ready to throw in the towel yet.

[Gary Lewis]

If the timing chain has jumped you'll get symptoms like this. And just because you set the ignition to 10 BTDC doesn't mean the valve timing is correct. If the chain jumps then the valve timing will be way off.

To check the valve timing is a real pain. It involves a degree wheel on the crank, knowing the cam specs, using a dial indicator, etc. Much easier to pull the damper, water pump, and timing cover and change it.

But, you can check to see if it is worn by pulling the distributor cap and watching the rotor while you roll the engine forward and backward with a socket on the crank bolt. Just take the slack out of the chain and see how much rotation there is before the rotor starts to move. Basically there shouldn't be much at all.

Another approach is to pull the fuel pump and reach in to check the slack in the chain. I think the factory specs are something like a max of 3/8", but I can check the shop manual tomorrow.

[PetesPonies]

You're wasting money, stop it. If the carburetor has fuel in it, the pump did it's job. if it won't run on starting fluid, you don't have a fuel problem. You either have a mechanical problem or an ignition problem. Since I don't know the past history here, I can't rule out the mechanical issue. Since I used to teach auto, I am always skeptical about what people say they did. K.I.S.S. is always something to follow. If you were involved with the ignition and timing, I'm betting that is still where the issue is.

[Frank Wyatt]

I agree with Gary and Pete, I would suspect the timing chain. Check it like Gary described. I had a '67 with a 390 that sometimes ran bad and other times ran OK. Then one day it quit on me leaving the driveway. I tore it down and there was nothing left of the material they use on the cam gear and had been like that for some time. Once it was replaced, it was like a hot rod compared to before.

[Rembrant]

A little more back story, she was running great one day (like they all do) then started backfiring and popping really bad AFTER I attempted to reset the timing (but she still started!). While she was running and popping like crazy I adjusted the carb using a vacuum gauge (had her around 16-17 on the gauge).

Can you put it back where it was? Adjust the carb to where it was and adjust the timing back to where it was? Forget about your current settings. Adjust the screws back out to where they were and turn the distributor back to where it was, will it start and run OK again?

 

[jstone4646]

A little more back story, she was running great one day (like they all do) then started backfiring and popping really bad AFTER I attempted to reset the timing (but she still started!). While she was running and popping like crazy I adjusted the carb using a vacuum gauge (had her around 16-17 on the gauge).

Can you put it back where it was? Adjust the carb to where it was and adjust the timing back to where it was? Forget about your current settings. Adjust the screws back out to where they were and turn the distributor back to where it was, will it start and run OK again?

Putting it back is not an option at this point.

[grumpin]

Putting it back is not an option at this point.

Not sure I remember all you did.

Has the truck ran good while you've had it?

Are you sure the firing order is correct?

If it is correct, have you tried the firing order for a 302? It's my understanding there are cams for the 351 that have a 302 firing order.

[jstone4646]

Not sure I remember all you did.

Has the truck ran good while you've had it?

Are you sure the firing order is correct?

If it is correct, have you tried the firing order for a 302? It's my understanding there are cams for the 351 that have a 302 firing order.

I thought the 302 and 351 shared the same firing order? I will need to research this....to answer your question though yes it ran decent once I got the ignition system repaired after I got it. I have had on and off problems with the carb, starter, and what not but it actually ran fairly good. It all started running like crap (popping and backfiring) after I tried to reset the timing. Before I reset the timing and removed the plugs I was tracing them and found that the firing order was not standard. Well in true dummy fashion I removed all the plug wires without marking which one went where on the cap because I assumed it was going to be a standard 351 firing order. Well now here we are, I have timed it, and set it to the standard 351 firing order and she will not light. I know the motor is a 351, and its not some crazy left opposite rotation marine engine or anything (crank spins clockwise as you are facing the motor from the front).

Something somewhere happened, and I have not yet been able to figure out what. I am almost positive it was something I did, but I am at a loss. I know timing is a big deal but as long as you are on TDC, and roll it back to 10BTDC, then ensure your dist. cap is facing cylinder 1 it should fire and stay running even if it is rough....provided of course the cam/timing gear/timing chain/dist. are not faulty.

I am likely going to tear the front half off the motor and check the timing chain. Based on what Gary and others mentioned previously with the symptoms I provided, chain slip/gear slip could be a possibility.

But what gets me is how off my firing order was. By this I mean my firing order was not standard, I cannot say what it was because I never wrote it down assuming it was the 351 standard, but after some research based on what you said apparently a 302 cam in a 351 with a firing order change (1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8) is not all that uncommon. I will test this tomorrow.

EDIT: After some research I understand now that the 351 shares the same firing order as the 302 HO, and the 302 non HO has a different firing order. I will give this a shot tomorrow, if she runs I owe you a lot of beer.

[grumpin]

I thought the 302 and 351 shared the same firing order? I will need to research this....to answer your question though yes it ran decent once I got the ignition system repaired after I got it. I have had on and off problems with the carb, starter, and what not but it actually ran fairly good. It all started running like crap (popping and backfiring) after I tried to reset the timing. Before I reset the timing and removed the plugs I was tracing them and found that the firing order was not standard. Well in true dummy fashion I removed all the plug wires without marking which one went where on the cap because I assumed it was going to be a standard 351 firing order. Well now here we are, I have timed it, and set it to the standard 351 firing order and she will not light. I know the motor is a 351, and its not some crazy left opposite rotation marine engine or anything (crank spins clockwise as you are facing the motor from the front).

Something somewhere happened, and I have not yet been able to figure out what. I am almost positive it was something I did, but I am at a loss. I know timing is a big deal but as long as you are on TDC, and roll it back to 10BTDC, then ensure your dist. cap is facing cylinder 1 it should fire and stay running even if it is rough....provided of course the cam/timing gear/timing chain/dist. are not faulty.

I am likely going to tear the front half off the motor and check the timing chain. Based on what Gary and others mentioned previously with the symptoms I provided, chain slip/gear slip could be a possibility.

But what gets me is how off my firing order was. By this I mean my firing order was not standard, I cannot say what it was because I never wrote it down assuming it was the 351 standard, but after some research based on what you said apparently a 302 cam in a 351 with a firing order change (1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8) is not all that uncommon. I will test this tomorrow.

EDIT: After some research I understand now that the 351 shares the same firing order as the 302 HO, and the 302 non HO has a different firing order. I will give this a shot tomorrow, if she runs I owe you a lot of beer.

" I know timing is a big deal but as long as you are on TDC, and roll it back to 10BTDC, then ensure your dist. cap is facing cylinder 1"

You want your distributor rotor at the number 1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke, not 10♀BTDC. Then time it with a light to 10♀ BTDC or per the specs.

Hope you get it figured out quick.

[Rembrant]

I am likely going to tear the front half off the motor and check the timing chain. Based on what Gary and others mentioned previously with the symptoms I provided, chain slip/gear slip could be a possibility.

But what gets me is how off my firing order was. By this I mean my firing order was not standard, I cannot say what it was because I never wrote it down assuming it was the 351 standard, but after some research based on what you said apparently a 302 cam in a 351 with a firing order change (1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8) is not all that uncommon. I will test this tomorrow.

EDIT: After some research I understand now that the 351 shares the same firing order as the 302 HO, and the 302 non HO has a different firing order. I will give this a shot tomorrow, if she runs I owe you a lot of beer.

I wouldn't be in a big rush to pull the front of the engine off. I know the timing chains can get really...REALLY sloppy, but your issues only showed up after you were messing with the timing and firing order.

There was another guy on here struggling with an ill running 351 for 2 months and he finally found out the darn thing had a 302 cam in it:

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/Ferdinand-85-Bronco-351W-XLT-Phoenix-rebuild-project-tp14538p20678.html

Get the engine back to where it was before you made the changes, and then go from there.