844rd Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Well I pulled all the EEC wires out, replaced the distributor and coil to DSII, motorcraft spark box and bought the Painless DSII wiring harness which is not as complete as I thought it would be. I found the 12V key on that went to the plug with the water and oil and a 4th wire that I don't know what it is. The 12V wire had 2 wires from the fire wall and fused into one before it got to the plug. I thought maybe the resistor wire but with the key on it has 12 volts so I used the resistor that came with Painless and wired it like on there directions. I changed the starter relay from the 3 point to a 4 point and hooked the wires per painless schematic but when I hit start the truck was turning over slow. Then when when I let off the key the starter kept going, I pulled the negative from the battery the checked the volts with the positive stilled hooked up and negative removed. So I'm getting 7 volts (with the volt meter on the negative side of the battery) on all 4 terminals of the starter relay and also on both sides of the Painless ballast resistor. So I disconnected the battery and called it quits. Hopefully there is enough pics someone can see where I went wrong. 80003.jpg" border="0" style="float:left; margin:.4em;"/> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
844rd Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 Some more pics I meant to post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Wow! Where to start? If you have 7 volts from the negative battery terminal to the positive terminal on the starter relay with the negative cable off the battery then your battery is almost dead. Now for the ballast resistor. You may have picked the wire with the resistor in it and if you did then you'll have a very low voltage going to the ignition module. You can't check for voltage across a resistor if there is no load on the resistor since it is only with a load that voltage drops. So, you might want to rethink which wire you use as you really shouldn't need the extra ballast resistor. And, you really didn't need the 4-terminal solenoid. Look at Page 27 here (Electrical/EVTM/1985 EVTM/Start & Ignition Gasoline Engines). Except for engines with an electric fuel pump Ford only used a 3-terminal solenoid on DS-II ignitions. And I'm not sure how Painless told you to wire things, but I'd do it just like Ford did. Can you post a pic of the Painful () wiring diagram? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
844rd Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 Wow! Where to start? If you have 7 volts from the negative battery terminal to the positive terminal on the starter relay with the negative cable off the battery then your battery is almost dead. Now for the ballast resistor. You may have picked the wire with the resistor in it and if you did then you'll have a very low voltage going to the ignition module. You can't check for voltage across a resistor if there is no load on the resistor since it is only with a load that voltage drops. So, you might want to rethink which wire you use as you really shouldn't need the extra ballast resistor. And, you really didn't need the 4-terminal solenoid. Look at Page 27 here (Electrical/EVTM/1985 EVTM/Start & Ignition Gasoline Engines). Except for engines with an electric fuel pump Ford only used a 3-terminal solenoid on DS-II ignitions. And I'm not sure how Painless told you to wire things, but I'd do it just like Ford did. Can you post a pic of the Painful () wiring diagram? Thanks Gary, OK, so I will X the painless resistor and here the Painless pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Thanks Gary, OK, so I will X the painless resistor and here the Painless pic. Kevin - I've worked through the Painless wiring diagram and it is the same as the Ford diagram in the EVTM - with the exception of the external ballast resistor. So that'll be fine once you get the ballast resistor bit sorted out. On that subject, you can turn the key on w/o hitting Start, and measure the voltage at the battery and at the ignition switch side of the ballast resistor. They should essentially be the same, although there will be a bit lower voltage at the resistor due to loss in the wiring. But if the voltage is something like 9 or 10 volts when the battery voltage is 12 volts then you picked the wire with the resistor in it. However, just to make sure, if you have battery voltage on the ignition switch side of the ballast resistor, check the other side - it should be down to 8 volts or so. If it is also at battery voltage you don't have current flowing and this test isn't working. Also, I said you apparently have another problem in the wiring as you had 7 volts at all 4 terminals on the solenoid. However, it is possible that your new solenoid welded itself closed, which would put battery voltage on all 4 terminals. That is known to happen with brand new solenoids these days - bad right out of the box. So, after you get your battery charged up I'd replace your solenoid with the original one. Yes, if it is a 3 terminal one you won't have a place for the wire on the other little terminal, but you can tape that wire up and not use it for a bit as it just tells the ignition module that you are in Start and the module is supposed to retard the timing a bit. However, you don't have to have that function. In fact, some modules don't have that built into them. So, for now just tape the wire and test with the old solenoid. And, once you pull the new solenoid off you can put your meter in resistance/ohms mode and check. If the solenoid is welded closed you'll find connectivity from every terminal to all of the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
844rd Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 Kevin - I've worked through the Painless wiring diagram and it is the same as the Ford diagram in the EVTM - with the exception of the external ballast resistor. So that'll be fine once you get the ballast resistor bit sorted out. On that subject, you can turn the key on w/o hitting Start, and measure the voltage at the battery and at the ignition switch side of the ballast resistor. They should essentially be the same, although there will be a bit lower voltage at the resistor due to loss in the wiring. But if the voltage is something like 9 or 10 volts when the battery voltage is 12 volts then you picked the wire with the resistor in it. However, just to make sure, if you have battery voltage on the ignition switch side of the ballast resistor, check the other side - it should be down to 8 volts or so. If it is also at battery voltage you don't have current flowing and this test isn't working. Also, I said you apparently have another problem in the wiring as you had 7 volts at all 4 terminals on the solenoid. However, it is possible that your new solenoid welded itself closed, which would put battery voltage on all 4 terminals. That is known to happen with brand new solenoids these days - bad right out of the box. So, after you get your battery charged up I'd replace your solenoid with the original one. Yes, if it is a 3 terminal one you won't have a place for the wire on the other little terminal, but you can tape that wire up and not use it for a bit as it just tells the ignition module that you are in Start and the module is supposed to retard the timing a bit. However, you don't have to have that function. In fact, some modules don't have that built into them. So, for now just tape the wire and test with the old solenoid. And, once you pull the new solenoid off you can put your meter in resistance/ohms mode and check. If the solenoid is welded closed you'll find connectivity from every terminal to all of the others. I have the charger on now and will remove the Painless resistor and brown wire. I will check the solenoid if it test ok I will try it. So the 2 wires in 1 from the ignition that was already there has 12 volts, that will go to the coil and module. The white wire from the module will go the the little start terminal on the solenoid then I should be ready to hit the start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 I have the charger on now and will remove the Painless resistor and brown wire. I will check the solenoid if it test ok I will try it. So the 2 wires in 1 from the ignition that was already there has 12 volts, that will go to the coil and module. The white wire from the module will go the the little start terminal on the solenoid then I should be ready to hit the start... Yes. On the two wires, I'm guessing that the two wires you are talking about are the ones I've circled. If so, then they are fed by the internal ballast resistor - if you have an ammeter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
844rd Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 Yes. On the two wires, I'm guessing that the two wires you are talking about are the ones I've circled. If so, then they are fed by the internal ballast resistor - if you have an ammeter. Well I think I have it wired right. I removed the Painless resistor and unhooked the brown wire on the solenoid. What I did find is were the I was getting the 7 volts from, it's coming back through the brown wire from the coil?? So now I have 12 volts on the solenoid when I turn the key on but nothing on the starter side. I took off the negative battery cable, and put the volt meter on negative battery post and on the stater side and showing 11.2 volts??? So maybe the the starter is bad. The battery has 12.2 volts. So 7 volts with key on flowing through the coil on the wire I took off the solenoid and 11.2 volts on the starter side??? This is a new solenoid that tested good. Anyway I'm done till after Christmas. Thanks for all your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Well I think I have it wired right. I removed the Painless resistor and unhooked the brown wire on the solenoid. What I did find is were the I was getting the 7 volts from, it's coming back through the brown wire from the coil?? So now I have 12 volts on the solenoid when I turn the key on but nothing on the starter side. I took off the negative battery cable, and put the volt meter on negative battery post and on the stater side and showing 11.2 volts??? So maybe the the starter is bad. The battery has 12.2 volts. So 7 volts with key on flowing through the coil on the wire I took off the solenoid and 11.2 volts on the starter side??? This is a new solenoid that tested good. Anyway I'm done till after Christmas. Thanks for all your help! Two things. First, the brown wire should have ~7v on it when the key is on. That says the ballast resistor is doing its thing and dropping the voltage to the coil down. But make sure that brown wire is to the rear of the two small terminals on the solenoid. That terminal gets battery voltage to it when the solenoid is pulled in to start the engine, and the temporary shot of 12v through it to the coil gives a higher voltage to the spark for starting. However, the coil nor the ignition module can handle that for long, so it is just for starting. Second, I got confused with your testing on the solenoid. But, with the ground cable off of the battery the solenoid won't work. And, unless the solenoid is firmly attached to the fender and there's a good ground from the battery to the engine to the cab it still won't work. I would test the solenoid by removing the cable going to the starter. Then I'd put my meter from the negative terminal of the battery to the now-empty rear large terminal of the solenoid. And I'd use a jumper wire to go from the battery's positive terminal, or the front large terminal on the solenoid which should be the same, to the front small terminal on the solenoid. That should bring the solenoid in, just as if you turned the key to Start, and you should see battery voltage on your meter. If that works, then place the wire from the ignition switch, which should be a red/light blue, back on the solenoid's front small terminal and turn the ignition switch to Start. You should hear the solenoid close. If so, then replace the starter cable and see if the engine will fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
844rd Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 Two things. First, the brown wire should have ~7v on it when the key is on. That says the ballast resistor is doing its thing and dropping the voltage to the coil down. But make sure that brown wire is to the rear of the two small terminals on the solenoid. That terminal gets battery voltage to it when the solenoid is pulled in to start the engine, and the temporary shot of 12v through it to the coil gives a higher voltage to the spark for starting. However, the coil nor the ignition module can handle that for long, so it is just for starting. Second, I got confused with your testing on the solenoid. But, with the ground cable off of the battery the solenoid won't work. And, unless the solenoid is firmly attached to the fender and there's a good ground from the battery to the engine to the cab it still won't work. I would test the solenoid by removing the cable going to the starter. Then I'd put my meter from the negative terminal of the battery to the now-empty rear large terminal of the solenoid. And I'd use a jumper wire to go from the battery's positive terminal, or the front large terminal on the solenoid which should be the same, to the front small terminal on the solenoid. That should bring the solenoid in, just as if you turned the key to Start, and you should see battery voltage on your meter. If that works, then place the wire from the ignition switch, which should be a red/light blue, back on the solenoid's front small terminal and turn the ignition switch to Start. You should hear the solenoid close. If so, then replace the starter cable and see if the engine will fire. Thank you Gary for the help!! At least I know the resistor is working I have that brown wire taped so it stops at the coil. So now I will check the grounds and play with the solenoid again next week. Just frustrated that a simple wiring job is kicking my rear!🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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