Borg Warner 1356 PTO Style Transfer Case [Canada]

[Gary Lewis]

I've cleaned it up and painted it ...

I hope all the mounting surfaces from the rectifier, to the alt case, to the bracket, to the head/block are clean & bare-metal.

https://supermotors.net/getfile/1055207/thumbnail/06bracket02.jpg

...I had no plans to change it until it failed. The only upgrades I have planned are to install a radio and speakers (nothing fancy) and a cigarette lighter/socket for charging my cell phone. I'm assuming the 40 amp ALT will be fine with that.

There is no DISadvantage to upgrading now to the 130A 3G, and a few advantages: more availability & reliability, and more capacity for anything you might ever do (like unplanned jump-charging/-starting).

...just replace with a stock part.

Never a good idea with the 2G, and not worth the cost for a 1G. The 3G is better in every way, and not significantly more expensive. At JYs, a good 3G can usually be had for $10-40.

What I want is an alternator that will kick out lots of current when I'm winching w/o having to rev the engine significantly.

No such thing. There is no free energy - you have to put a lot in to get out a noticeable amount. And at low RPM, you're not putting much energy into the alt. It's also not particularly efficient in the lower RPM range at converting mechanical energy to electrical. So if you tried to force it to put out more, you'd just heat it up & probably melt the belt. The most-efficient alternator is probably NOT 50% efficient, so you'll always have to raise the RPMs for heavy loads (like winching, in particular).

...the EEC-IV systems's PTO function...

I'm not aware of that. AFAIK, that function didn't appear until the first EEC-V ('96), and only on gassers. It took me a few years to find the Ford documentation on it, so I added it to this caption:

https://supermotors.net/getfile/892730/thumbnail/eecconnectors.jpg

Do you have any documentation on an EEC-IV PTO function?

...your battery runs the electrical system.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but it's not how I'd word it. The battery is only "in charge" when the alternator isn't working (KOEO). In all other cases, the alternator is the higher voltage source, which makes it king. If the alternator is overloaded, the battery will TRY to take up the slack, but the alt. will remain in overload. And since the battery terminals are almost always points of high resistance (due to corrosion & abuse), it's never likely to actually supply as much current as it's really capable of.

I've seen the documentation on the function I called "PTO", but didn't find it just now when I was looking. Perhaps Bill will chime in.

And, I'll be using a '96 EEC-V ECU. If I remember correctly it is from a 351W, but it'll be told that it is working with a 460.

Truth be told, I've lost track of the documentation and plans I'd put together. But, I do hope to get back to that early next year.

As for free energy, I'm not at all suggesting I'll get 130 amps out of the alternator at idle. Just that I don't want to have to run the engine at 3000 RPM to get full output from the alternator. And the "PTO" function that I'm remembering, although my rememberer isn't what it used to be, raises the "idle" speed enough that a 3G will be delivering more than the current 60 amp 1G could deliver at full tilt.

[Gary Lewis]

Do you have any documentation on an EEC-IV PTO function?

I've been tracking it down, but still have further to go. I found some interesting things in my 1996 EVTM and a book I have called Professional Technician's Seminar (A Service Of Standard Motor Products) 1996 Ford Engine Performance.

One thing that I've noted is that the '96 EVTM says the circuit in question is:

• Not used on the 4.9L

• Used on the 5.0L & 5.8L under 8500, and it is called Customer Use, is Circuit 323, has a LB/Y wire, and is on pin 4

• Is not used on the 5.8L o/8500; 7.5L o/14,000 49 State; or 7.5L Super Duty 50 States. And pin 4 is IDM, not Customer Use

• Is used on 7.5L California F250/350, is called Power Take Off Circuit, is circuit # 323, LB/Y, and is on pin 4

But, even on those where the circuit is used it is not shown in the schematics in the EVTM.

As for the PTS book, it shows pin 4 used as "PTO (M)" for all of the engines on the pickups, and it gives some voltages for testing purposes in various conditions. Further, there is a diagnostic procedure on the circuit as well as a diagram showing pin 4 to a switch and the other side of the switch going to Ignition Start/Run, meaning 12v. And, it says that the switch is "aftermarket installed", which might be why it doesn't shown in the EVTM. In addition, it says "PTO signals to the PCM that additional load is being supplied to the engine."

And, I found this on the Super Motors website:

The '96 V8 "Customer Use" pin #4 (323 LB/Y) is for a PTO indicator light circuit to change EEC strategies & self-diagnostics for stationary hi-RPM use.

https://fordbbas.com/non-html/1997/c24_25_p.pdf

POWER TAKE-OFF CIRCUIT INSTALLATIONS REQUIRES:

1) VOLTAGE WHEN PTO IS OPERATING

2) VOLTAGE OFF WHEN PTO IS OFF, OR WHEN IGNITION IS OFF

3) PCM / PTO CIRCUIT MUST BE ELECTRICALLY ISOLATED FROM THE SOLENOID, OR PCM DAMAGE COULD RESULT

1. Splice circuit 640, R/Y, located on the driver side under the instrument panel, labeled "Power Take-Off Circuit," to the body builder installed wire that connects to the positive side of the PTO indicator switch or PTO control relay.

2. Splice circuit 323, LB/Y, located on the driver side underhood, labeled "Power Take-Off Circuit," to the body builder-installed wire that connects to the positive (Switched) side of the PTO indicator light.

Failure to properly connect this wire may result in erroneous emissions codes and illumination of the "Check Engine" light during PTO operation.

In electrically actuated systems, the wire labeled "Power Take-Off Circuit," must be isolated from the solenoid or PCM DAMAGE COULD RESULT.

 

[Steve83]

Is not used on the 5.8L o/8500; 7.5L o/14,000 49 State; or 7.5L Super Duty 50 States. And pin 4 is IDM, not Customer Use

...

But, even on those where the circuit is used it is not shown in the schematics in the EVTM.

Right: those heavy trucks are not OBD-II (EEC-V); they're EEC-IV, so they don't have that circuit, programming, or NEED for either. The purpose of that input is to tell the EEC not to worry about emissions because the truck isn't on the road. The PTO function is intended to be used only when the truck's engine is driving stationary equipment, like a generator or a truck-mounted hydraulic crane (like for utility work). So all the OBD-II-required emissions monitoring is temporarily disabled.

And since the factory didn't connect anything to that pin (other than a taped wire), there's nothing to show in the EVTM.

And, I found this on the Super Motors website...

Yes, that's what I found a few years ago, and added to that caption.

[Gary Lewis]

Is not used on the 5.8L o/8500; 7.5L o/14,000 49 State; or 7.5L Super Duty 50 States. And pin 4 is IDM, not Customer Use

...

But, even on those where the circuit is used it is not shown in the schematics in the EVTM.

Right: those heavy trucks are not OBD-II (EEC-V); they're EEC-IV, so they don't have that circuit, programming, or NEED for either. The purpose of that input is to tell the EEC not to worry about emissions because the truck isn't on the road. The PTO function is intended to be used only when the truck's engine is driving stationary equipment, like a generator or a truck-mounted hydraulic crane (like for utility work). So all the OBD-II-required emissions monitoring is temporarily disabled.

And since the factory didn't connect anything to that pin (other than a taped wire), there's nothing to show in the EVTM.

And, I found this on the Super Motors website...

Yes, that's what I found a few years ago, and added to that caption.

Steve - I'd not noticed that the 5.8L o/8500, 7.5L o/14000, and the 7.5L Super Duty 50 States didn't have OBD-II. But, you are right, the EVTM shows a 6-pin data link connector for those instead of the 16-pin OBD-II.

Things are going to get "interesting" as I start marrying the computer to the wiring harness. I currently have a '96 5.0L/E4OD computer and a '96 California wiring harness. I'll have to check to see what vehicle the computer came from to make sure it supports Customer Use/PTO. And, it looks like I'll have to move a number of pins around on the CA harness to match whatever computer I use.

[Rembrant]

Since we were discussing the PTO locations earlier, thought I'd post up this old girl.

F350 with a trans mounted PTO. Looks like they have a lever coming up through the floor.

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/mississauga-peel-region/1980-ford-f350-dump-truck/1408327010?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

 

[Rembrant]

Since we were discussing the PTO locations earlier, thought I'd post up this old girl.

F350 with a trans mounted PTO. Looks like they have a lever coming up through the floor.

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/mississauga-peel-region/1980-ford-f350-dump-truck/1408327010?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

PS: Gary will spot those clear front signals...:nabble_smiley_whistling:

[Rembrant]

I've seen the documentation on the function I called "PTO", but didn't find it just now when I was looking. Perhaps Bill will chime in.

And, I'll be using a '96 EEC-V ECU. If I remember correctly it is from a 351W, but it'll be told that it is working with a 460.

Truth be told, I've lost track of the documentation and plans I'd put together. But, I do hope to get back to that early next year.

As for free energy, I'm not at all suggesting I'll get 130 amps out of the alternator at idle. Just that I don't want to have to run the engine at 3000 RPM to get full output from the alternator. And the "PTO" function that I'm remembering, although my rememberer isn't what it used to be, raises the "idle" speed enough that a 3G will be delivering more than the current 60 amp 1G could deliver at full tilt.

Looks like today is Bullnose PTO day.

This one has all the bells and whistles! PTO driven compressor and generator/welder, and maybe PTO hydraulic pump as well?

Looks like the compressor and welder are belt driven off a PTO shaft, and there's a lever there to clutch them in.

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/st-albert/1986-ford-f-350-service-truck/1407821112?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Truck is really low miles as well...but that engine and trans may very well still have lots of hours on them from service use.

[Gary Lewis]

Looks like today is Bullnose PTO day.

This one has all the bells and whistles! PTO driven compressor and generator/welder, and maybe PTO hydraulic pump as well?

Looks like the compressor and welder are belt driven off a PTO shaft, and there's a lever there to clutch them in.

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/st-albert/1986-ford-f-350-service-truck/1407821112?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Truck is really low miles as well...but that engine and trans may very well still have lots of hours on them from service use.

First, I didn't spot the clear turn signals. But, that fits with it being an '80.

And I see the lever on the first one, but it is hard to see on the second one.

Anyway, thanks for the examples. I'd often wondered how that worked.