Gary Lewis Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 Oh no, Paul, there there definitely costs involved in migrating The Forum to a more professional format. It's absurdity of what kind of 501.3 we have to become an how we have to make up a name to conform to some capricious and arbitrary tax regulation. It's the sort of thing that makes me want to shut the door and ignore it all. I'm staying out of the discussion about which name to use, but I think it is good to get all of the ideas out so people can think about it. And that seems to be working as I've seen the voting shift as people rethink what they like and change their vote - which you can easily do. So keep up the discussion, please. Having said that, I don't see the name as a huge deal. There are several options that seem to work fairly well and I wanted y'all to have a hand in deciding. Helping to make decisions like this is part of being a "community". As for "Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club", I can't change the poll and I'm loathe to blow this one away and start over. So let's try this: No one has voted for Bullnose Bible Club, so from now on through the poll a vote for that will be a vote for Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club. GO VOTE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdude747 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 I'm staying out of the discussion about which name to use, but I think it is good to get all of the ideas out so people can think about it. And that seems to be working as I've seen the voting shift as people rethink what they like and change their vote - which you can easily do. So keep up the discussion, please. Having said that, I don't see the name as a huge deal. There are several options that seem to work fairly well and I wanted y'all to have a hand in deciding. Helping to make decisions like this is part of being a "community". As for "Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club", I can't change the poll and I'm loathe to blow this one away and start over. So let's try this: No one has voted for Bullnose Bible Club, so from now on through the poll a vote for that will be a vote for Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club. GO VOTE! Done. Might want to edit the original post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckuske Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Jim I'm too new here to fully grasp what all the issues are that moving to a higher cost provider will solve. But do see the higher costs being more of a burden and harder to sustain. Paul Hi Paul, The simple answer is that the forum software currently being used has been abandoned by the original author. There are features that plain don't work, and we have no recourse to have them fixed. No updates are being made to the forum software or the platform it runs on, and he can turn off our forum at will. He is letting it stay running because he doesn't care enough to turn it off (yet). That is a precarious position to be in, we need to ensure we are on a platform where we at least have some measure of assurance that our forum can't disappear on a whim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 Hi Paul, The simple answer is that the forum software currently being used has been abandoned by the original author. There are features that plain don't work, and we have no recourse to have them fixed. No updates are being made to the forum software or the platform it runs on, and he can turn off our forum at will. He is letting it stay running because he doesn't care enough to turn it off (yet). That is a precarious position to be in, we need to ensure we are on a platform where we at least have some measure of assurance that our forum can't disappear on a whim. Larry - I can't edit the poll, but might be able to edit the other text if that is what you mean. But read on before we worry about that. Chris - Well stated. All - The paralegal got back with me this morning and they, she and the lawyer, are thinking that we don't qualify for being a 501c7. Their thinking is: Voting: Membership in a non-profit brings with it voting rights, and at a minimum the members need to vote to elect the board of directors. And there needs to be a quorum defined that says how many minimum votes it takes to be a legit election. In the past they've seen as small as 10% of the membership as the quorum, but she thought we might be able to go as low as 5%. Putting that in perspective, 2131 members x 5% = 107 votes. So we'd have to get at least 107 members to vote. And that would be a bit of an issue on Nabble as there really is no emailing function. Maybe it can be done on InVision? Or, maybe just the ability to put up a notification would suffice, and we can do that on InVision. So, if we could wait to do that until after the move maybe it would work. Exclusive Activities: The whole idea of a "social club" is to socialize and that requires in-person meetings which are exclusive. I explained that we sorta have that in the meeting on Friday ahead of the truck show, but she wasn't sure that would be enough - especially when I told her that we might only have 10 - 15 members there. Dues/Fees/Assessments: They are now not sure that contributions are acceptable as the only way of funding a non-profit. They are one way, but maybe not acceptable as the only way. They gave me links to two publications to read, and I'm in the midst of doing that. And then I'm to get back with them via email to explain how I think we comply, assuming I think we do comply. They'll then review that and let me know if they think it'll work, if we need to make other changes, or just won't fit. The alternative is that y'all send me money and I keep it separate from our personal funding by establishing a separate bank account. But all of that money will be taxable to me at ~25%, so the move will cost $2,250 and the annual fee will be more like $1,250. But we'd not have the $500 fee to set up the non-profit and wouldn't have to have a board of directors, voting, etc. I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhauler Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Hi Paul, The simple answer is that the forum software currently being used has been abandoned by the original author. There are features that plain don't work, and we have no recourse to have them fixed. No updates are being made to the forum software or the platform it runs on, and he can turn off our forum at will. He is letting it stay running because he doesn't care enough to turn it off (yet). That is a precarious position to be in, we need to ensure we are on a platform where we at least have some measure of assurance that our forum can't disappear on a whim. Chris that makes what's going on with the forum very clear, thanks for that explanation. Ok Gary changed my vote but I'm ok with whatever name the forum goes with. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdude747 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Larry - I can't edit the poll, but might be able to edit the other text if that is what you mean. But read on before we worry about that. Chris - Well stated. All - The paralegal got back with me this morning and they, she and the lawyer, are thinking that we don't qualify for being a 501c7. Their thinking is: Voting: Membership in a non-profit brings with it voting rights, and at a minimum the members need to vote to elect the board of directors. And there needs to be a quorum defined that says how many minimum votes it takes to be a legit election. In the past they've seen as small as 10% of the membership as the quorum, but she thought we might be able to go as low as 5%. Putting that in perspective, 2131 members x 5% = 107 votes. So we'd have to get at least 107 members to vote. And that would be a bit of an issue on Nabble as there really is no emailing function. Maybe it can be done on InVision? Or, maybe just the ability to put up a notification would suffice, and we can do that on InVision. So, if we could wait to do that until after the move maybe it would work. Exclusive Activities: The whole idea of a "social club" is to socialize and that requires in-person meetings which are exclusive. I explained that we sorta have that in the meeting on Friday ahead of the truck show, but she wasn't sure that would be enough - especially when I told her that we might only have 10 - 15 members there. Dues/Fees/Assessments: They are now not sure that contributions are acceptable as the only way of funding a non-profit. They are one way, but maybe not acceptable as the only way. They gave me links to two publications to read, and I'm in the midst of doing that. And then I'm to get back with them via email to explain how I think we comply, assuming I think we do comply. They'll then review that and let me know if they think it'll work, if we need to make other changes, or just won't fit. The alternative is that y'all send me money and I keep it separate from our personal funding by establishing a separate bank account. But all of that money will be taxable to me at ~25%, so the move will cost $2,250 and the annual fee will be more like $1,250. But we'd not have the $500 fee to set up the non-profit and wouldn't have to have a board of directors, voting, etc. I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Which is why I was thinking 501c3 was perhaps a better fit. Per the IRS: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exempt-purposes-internal-revenue-code-section-501c3 The exempt purposes set forth in section 501©(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency. From what I'm reading, the site likely falls under educational purposes. None of it is commercial (you're not trying to inure yourself)... and at least according to Texas, online forums do count: https://texassecretaryofstate.com/what-constitutes-charitable-educational-or-literary-purposes/ Educational Purposes — Educational purposes under the Internal Revenue Code include instruction of the public on subjects useful to individuals for the benefit of the community and for self-development. The Internal Revenue Service (“IRS”) will generally find that a curriculum is educational if, when presenting particular viewpoints, the curriculum provides a sufficiently full and fair exposition of pertinent facts to permit an individual or the public to form an independent opinion or conclusion. However, mere presentation of unsupported opinion is not considered educational. Some examples of educational purposes include: publishing public interest educational materials that do not conflict with the requirements above; conducting public discussion groups, forums, panels, lectures, or workshops; offering a correspondence course or one that uses other media such as television or radio; operating a museum, zoo, planetarium, symphony orchestra, or other performance groups; serving an educational institution, such as a college bookstore, alumni association, or athletic organization; and publishing educational newsletters, pamphlets, books, or other material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 Which is why I was thinking 501c3 was perhaps a better fit. Per the IRS: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exempt-purposes-internal-revenue-code-section-501c3 The exempt purposes set forth in section 501©(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency. From what I'm reading, the site likely falls under educational purposes. None of it is commercial (you're not trying to inure yourself)... and at least according to Texas, online forums do count: https://texassecretaryofstate.com/what-constitutes-charitable-educational-or-literary-purposes/ Educational Purposes — Educational purposes under the Internal Revenue Code include instruction of the public on subjects useful to individuals for the benefit of the community and for self-development. The Internal Revenue Service (“IRS”) will generally find that a curriculum is educational if, when presenting particular viewpoints, the curriculum provides a sufficiently full and fair exposition of pertinent facts to permit an individual or the public to form an independent opinion or conclusion. However, mere presentation of unsupported opinion is not considered educational. Some examples of educational purposes include: publishing public interest educational materials that do not conflict with the requirements above; conducting public discussion groups, forums, panels, lectures, or workshops; offering a correspondence course or one that uses other media such as television or radio; operating a museum, zoo, planetarium, symphony orchestra, or other performance groups; serving an educational institution, such as a college bookstore, alumni association, or athletic organization; and publishing educational newsletters, pamphlets, books, or other material. Larry - I've asked them if 501c3 might be an option. We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 Larry - I've asked them if 501c3 might be an option. We shall see. And the reply came right back: "The closest fit would be c/7 – it would not meet the operational test required to be a c/3." That's after I'd sent this as background info: Website: https://www.garysgaragemahal.com Forum: The first page of that website is a forum where we ask & answer questions about the 1980 - 86 Ford trucks, show off what we've done, and pat each other on the back. While the forum is visible to anyone on the internet you have to be a member in order to post on it. We allow anyone to be a member, even if they don't have one of these trucks, and as of today we have 2131 members from Poland on the east to Australia on the west. Library: The other pages of the website are, for the most part, our library of technical information. We use it to answer questions for the members. It has come about because I've purchased and have been given a huge quantity of Ford documentation and have scanned much of it and put it on the website. There are about 1000 webpages (I added 4 yesterday) and each page may contain multiple documents, some of which are over 100 pages long, so it is a large library. It is available to anyone on the internet, not just members, but it allows us to definitively answer questions on the forum since I'm the curator and know where to find the needed document. (It is arranged logically - my logic. 😎) But to be honest, it is used by a wide range of Ford guys, from those on Ford Truck Enthusiasts forum, Full Size Broncos forum, and the 20 or so Facebook pages on these trucks - which easily have over 200,000 members. It is the Bullnose Bible. Meetings: We have an annual Ford truck show in Skiatook, which is open to the public, and the night before we have a meeting of the members that have come. But we don't have that many members actually come, and last year there were only eight. Having said that, many of our members interact daily with each other posting questions, answering them, providing encouragement, telling how they've used their truck today, etc. I'm not sure that qualifies for "personal contact", but in this on-line environment it should. Funding: To this point my wife and I've funded everything for the last seven years, including the dinner for the annual show, the trophies, the website, etc. The website has cost around $250/year, the dinner about the same, and the trophies maybe $75. So there have been no fees, assessments, etc. However, now our free forum platform is about to go away and we need to move to something viable for the long haul, and the costs are going to be $1800 one-time, assuming no legal fees, and $1000 per year for the platform. We have not had fees of any kind, nor do we have a way to assess them. There is currently no mechanism to send an email to each member, and some of them haven't been on in years. (Life happens, they sell their truck, etc.) So our plan has been to fund everything via contributions. And I have commitments to cover both the migration as well as the annual fees. Voting: Heretofore we've not had much, if any, voting. Right now I have a poll up to see what we want to call our new entity, assuming that we'll actually have one, and we've had 20 votes in 24 hours. So if we have to vote in a board of directors election we'll have an issue getting many voters. As said, the current forum platform doesn't allow emailing, and it doesn't allow for a banner. But the new platform at least allows for a banner so we could use it to call attention to the need to vote - but only when the members log on. So we might struggle to get 100 votes in a week's time. Given the above, do you think we qualify? If not, what are our options? I'm thinking that I just need to set up a separate bank account and pay taxes on all contributions. Is that the best approach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBrother-84 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 And the reply came right back: "The closest fit would be c/7 – it would not meet the operational test required to be a c/3." That's after I'd sent this as background info: Website: https://www.garysgaragemahal.com Forum: The first page of that website is a forum where we ask & answer questions about the 1980 - 86 Ford trucks, show off what we've done, and pat each other on the back. While the forum is visible to anyone on the internet you have to be a member in order to post on it. We allow anyone to be a member, even if they don't have one of these trucks, and as of today we have 2131 members from Poland on the east to Australia on the west. Library: The other pages of the website are, for the most part, our library of technical information. We use it to answer questions for the members. It has come about because I've purchased and have been given a huge quantity of Ford documentation and have scanned much of it and put it on the website. There are about 1000 webpages (I added 4 yesterday) and each page may contain multiple documents, some of which are over 100 pages long, so it is a large library. It is available to anyone on the internet, not just members, but it allows us to definitively answer questions on the forum since I'm the curator and know where to find the needed document. (It is arranged logically - my logic. 😎) But to be honest, it is used by a wide range of Ford guys, from those on Ford Truck Enthusiasts forum, Full Size Broncos forum, and the 20 or so Facebook pages on these trucks - which easily have over 200,000 members. It is the Bullnose Bible. Meetings: We have an annual Ford truck show in Skiatook, which is open to the public, and the night before we have a meeting of the members that have come. But we don't have that many members actually come, and last year there were only eight. Having said that, many of our members interact daily with each other posting questions, answering them, providing encouragement, telling how they've used their truck today, etc. I'm not sure that qualifies for "personal contact", but in this on-line environment it should. Funding: To this point my wife and I've funded everything for the last seven years, including the dinner for the annual show, the trophies, the website, etc. The website has cost around $250/year, the dinner about the same, and the trophies maybe $75. So there have been no fees, assessments, etc. However, now our free forum platform is about to go away and we need to move to something viable for the long haul, and the costs are going to be $1800 one-time, assuming no legal fees, and $1000 per year for the platform. We have not had fees of any kind, nor do we have a way to assess them. There is currently no mechanism to send an email to each member, and some of them haven't been on in years. (Life happens, they sell their truck, etc.) So our plan has been to fund everything via contributions. And I have commitments to cover both the migration as well as the annual fees. Voting: Heretofore we've not had much, if any, voting. Right now I have a poll up to see what we want to call our new entity, assuming that we'll actually have one, and we've had 20 votes in 24 hours. So if we have to vote in a board of directors election we'll have an issue getting many voters. As said, the current forum platform doesn't allow emailing, and it doesn't allow for a banner. But the new platform at least allows for a banner so we could use it to call attention to the need to vote - but only when the members log on. So we might struggle to get 100 votes in a week's time. Given the above, do you think we qualify? If not, what are our options? I'm thinking that I just need to set up a separate bank account and pay taxes on all contributions. Is that the best approach? Hello, here's the Dummy. I'm lost. The paralegal got back with me this morning and they, she and the lawyer, are thinking that we don't qualify for being a 501c7. And the reply came right back: "The closest fit would be c/7 – it would not meet the operational test required to be a c/3." To Qualify c/7 or Not To Qualify c/7, this is The Question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Lewis Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 Hello, here's the Dummy. I'm lost. The paralegal got back with me this morning and they, she and the lawyer, are thinking that we don't qualify for being a 501c7. And the reply came right back: "The closest fit would be c/7 – it would not meet the operational test required to be a c/3." To Qualify c/7 or Not To Qualify c/7, this is The Question. You aren't a dummy, Jeff. It is confusing, for sure. When I talked with the lady this morning she'd talked with the lawyer and he'd advised that he doesn't think we qualify as a c/7. I asked a lot of questions and provided more info and she seemed to start questioning his decision. So I put together the info shown above and sent it to her, to which she responded: Thank you for the information, I will share it with Mr. Haney. The closest fit would be c/7 – it would not meet the operational test required to be a c/3. I’ll be in touch once Mr. Haney has a recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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